Nobody Puts Abortion in a Corner: Abortion in Film and TV

Television and film often allow people to make sense of the world. With abortion being center stage in many national conversations and with so many myths circulating about this type of care, it is especially important that TV and film represent abortion stories accurately. Steph Herold, researcher studying abortion in television and film at Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health (ANSIRH), sits down to talk with us about abortion depictions onscreen and what Hollywood could include in storytelling to be more representative of those seeking abortion care.

Television and films have been telling abortion stories for a very long time, but sometimes the depictions aren’t realistic. Often, abortion is portrayed as a risky or unsafe procedure (which is fundamentally untrue—it’s one of the safest medical procedures a person can receive). In addition, characters that receive abortions in television and film don’t often reflect those who receive abortions in real life; most abortion patients in real life are people of color, struggling to make ends meet, many of whom are already parents, yet the character onscreen who receives an abortion is often a young, white, single woman. In addition, characters don’t face barriers to the care they need, including waiting periods, traveling, financial concerns, and gestational bans. Lastly, medication abortion is largely underrepresented onscreen.

Still, over the last couple of years, TV and film have done a better job at telling compassionate and accurate abortion stories. 2020 saw the most abortion stories told on television in a year, and included Never, Rarely, Sometimes Always, Unpregnant, Portrait of a Lady on Fire, Premature and St. Francis. Each showed a person accessing different types of abortion with the support of a friend or family member. More characters of color are accessing abortion on TV, including Olivia Pope on Scandal, a queer, Black character on the Bold Type, and Vic on Station 19.

Links from this episode

ANSIRH on Twitter
ANSIRH on Facebook
Abortiononscreen.org
INeedAnA.com
Abortion Fund Donation Finder
Repro Legal Helpline

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more – giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Hi rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So, y’all, I hope everybody had a nice holiday weekend…I guess that was two weekends ago now by the time this comes out. It was nice to have some time away. I actually had a longer weekend, which was delightful to just kind of disconnect from everything and relax. I, I didn't do anything. I think I've talked about this before on the podcast, but I, I can't really go anywhere over the Fourth. My kitties really freak out with the fireworks, and so, I need to be here to keep an eye on them, which is fine. I don't mind sitting here and watching movies or whatever. And so, I just took a really low-key weekend. I did some baking. I read some fluffy, escapism, romance books, which was just what I needed. Those two books were, like, it’s just the escapism I needed, just the amount of stress I needed cuz, you know, it's gonna end at a happy ending, right? So, it was, uh, yeah. It was exactly what I needed to just, like, not think about all the things. So, I did that. The Fourth, we were lucky, wasn't as loud as it usually is in my neighborhood. I mean, that's not to say the kitties weren't still really stressed and, like, pacing and hiding and, uh, coming to sit with me a lot, cuz they were, but it was less bad than many years. I'm sure, like many, a lot of people didn't really feel like there was a lot to celebrate this year, so I think it was just quieter than usual with a lot less fireworks. But yeah, it was still a very long night staying up with them. It took them till like 2:00 to finally like settle down, and go to sleep in bed. So it was, um, it was a long night. And, I don't know, but it, it got me thinking about, you know, making sure who…that you're hearing everybody's voice, and I think I've talked about this also on the podcast before, but it's definitely something that is really important, and, and it's nice to do every once in a while to just, kind of, do an audit of your social media and make sure that you're hearing from a wide range of voices. And by that I don't mean, like, follow somebody who's anti-abortion or, or things like that. I mean, making sure that you're seeing, like, a representative group of people. So, you know, make sure that you're following some Black women, some Latinx people, that you are following trans and queer people, and trans and queer people of color, and disability rights advocates, and Indigenous advocates and making sure that you're hearing voices from people that you maybe wouldn't always hear from. It really makes a difference. And I have learned so much from so many people by broadening the people I follow on Twitter, and I've learned about issues that are really important but weren't things that I spent a lot of time thinking about before by doing that. And it's just, it's just really important to, you know, every once in a while, to kind of do a little audit of your followers and make sure that you are listening to that wide range of voices so that you are getting a better idea of what is happening in the world. And then, the other thing that I always tried to do is think about whose voice I'm retweeting, right? So, does that cis White man need another retweet? Or is there a woman, or a woman of color, or person of color who is tweeting about the same thing that…maybe it would be more important to lift up what they're saying? I, I just, it's one of those things that I have been thinking about a lot lately. It's something I try to be careful with on, on my social. So, yeah. I don't know. I, I don't know why this weekend or this week I was really thinking about that. I guess maybe I was thinking it was time to look and see if there are more people, new people I should be following, more voices I should be uplifting. And it, it's something that I think is really important. It's really…because they have…it has made a difference in how I see issues and how I understand the world by, by who I follow and whose voices I hear on social or the podcasts I listen to. So, I just, it felt like something that was important to share, and I'm sure it was on my mind because it was time for me to do it myself. But also, I have a small platform here, so it's helpful that I, I share those things as well with you all. So, anyway, take the time, look through your social, see who you're following and expand your circle if there are people that you should be following that you're not. I think I'll stop there. I'm really excited for this week's episode, y'all. There is so much happening. There is so much happening that is so dark and heavy and, you know, with Roe overturning, it felt really important to me that we do an, an abortion-related episode, but maybe not, like, a heavy abortion-related episode, maybe something a little more fun. So, I couldn't think of a better person to talk to than Steph Herold at Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health about how abortion is portrayed on TV and film. Like, how fun is that, y'all? We get to talk TV, film, abortion. It sounds like the perfect episode to listen to at this moment. So, with that, let's go to my interview with Steph. Hi Steph! Thank you for being here!

Steph: Thanks for having me!

Jennie: I'm so excited to have you here to talk about abortion in a fun way in the midst of all of the terrible. But before we do that, let's have you do a quick introduction. Do you wanna take a moment, and introduce yourself, and include your pronouns?

Steph: Sure. My name is Steph Herold. I use she/her pronouns, and I'm a researcher who studies abortion on television and film at Advancing New Standards in Reproductive Health.

Jennie: Okay. I'm so excited for this conversation, and I think maybe we should start at, like, the very beginning of, like, why is it important that we talk about how abortion is portrayed on film and TV? Because it matters, right?

Steph: Yeah, absolutely. There's the saying in, in, um, cultural organizing that, you know, very small percent of people spend the majority of their time in politics, and the majority of people spend the majority of their time absorbing culture, right? So, TV and film really help people make sense of the world through popular culture, right? And it's important to know what messages these media are conveying about abortion, particularly at a time when our, our politics is really giving us such horrible decisions for abortion rights. And the general public really knows very little about abortion, whether it's, you know, medical information or legal information, right? So, research finds that people often believe many myths about abortion: that, you know, that it's rare, what we know is very common, that it's medically risky, when we know it's actually one of the safest outpatient procedures there is, they believe that it's relatively easy to get an abortion, when we know it's actually extremely difficult thanks to logistical, legal, and financial obstacles. Most people don't know about the abortion laws and abortion restrictions in their states, and television and film can really help address and challenge this misinformation, and give audiences a glimpse into who gets abortions, who provides abortions, what that experience is really like for people.

Jennie: Yeah. I think that's so important, and it's something that's not…I feel like it's become more portrayed on TV and film, but I feel like it has not been something that has been tackled a lot. I mean, it has…mm…historically. So, it’s really good to see it being portrayed more, but it's not always portrayed well.

Steph: Right.

Jennie: Can, maybe, we talk about some of the, like, various bad representations we've seen?

Steph: Yeah. So, you're totally right that we've seen kind of an explosion of abortion plot lines across different genres. So, abortion has, really, always been part of the stories that Hollywood tells, right? Ever since the beginning of both television and film, for film back to 1916 is actually when we saw the first portrayal of abortion, and then in on TV, it's in the 1960s, so, really, abortion storytelling has always been present. Hollywood has always found ways that are, you know, politically relevant at the time to tell stories about abortion. Um, and in the last 10 years or so, we've really seen a dramatic increase in the number of abortion plot lines on TV and in film, which is also coincided with this explosion of streaming and content. So, it's kind of a “both-and” situation, where I think there are lots of folks in Hollywood who wanna tell these stories, and they have a lot more opportunities and avenues to tell them. But just like you were saying, the just because we have more depictions doesn't mean we have the best depictions. So, often what we see on television is…and in film, is an unsafe abortion or abortion is depicted as much, much less safe than it is in reality. So, for example, abortion is one of the safest outpatient procedures in the U.S. You know, less than a quarter of a percent of abortions result in any kind of major complication. But on TV, 18% of abortions result in a major adverse medical complication, which is nearly a 70-fold exaggeration. So, when you're seeing an abortion on TV, it's much more likely to be risky than an abortion is in real life. We also found that the kinds of characters who have abortions on TV are very different from the actual people who get abortions in real life, right? So, on TV, you often see a young, White, wealthy character, who does not have children, but in real life, the most abortion patients are, are most often people of color struggling to make ends meet, who are parenting at the time of their abortions, right? So, there's this big discrepancy between what we see and what we experience in reality. Another big gap is that we often don't see characters facing any barriers to getting the abortion that they need, right? So, when they want an abortion, they can often get it, right? There, there isn't…what's wonderful is that there's no longer much drama about the decision. So, in the early nineties, in particular, we saw a lot of the drama being focused on, you know, the, “will she, won't she get the abortion.” Now we see more, like, “who will she tell about the abortion?” There's less, like, emotional resonance and weight on the decision making itself, but we also don't see the barriers, right? We don't see the things that people face every day: the waiting periods, the traveling, the gestational bans, having to come up with hundreds or thousands of dollars, all of the kind of cruel and tedious, logistical, financial and legal hurdles everyone faces today. So, I think that, in particular, will be especially important as we're facing this future of legal uncertainty. And another big piece that's missing that I think will also be extremely relevant moving forward is that, you know, often when we see an abortion on TV, we either don't know what type of abortion it was, or it's a surgical abortion. Medication abortion is really missing. Although some depictions from the last year or two have started to fill in the gaps, which is great, but that's really missing. So, a lot of, a lot of people, first of all, don't know the difference between medication abortion and Plan B and then are very confused about what medication abortion is, how it works. And the lack of portrayals in popular culture about, you know, what the abortion pills are, I think, really leaves this big void, both in our health knowledge and in our imagination about what this is, how safe it is, all of that.

Jennie: This is great cuz this is something I haven't spent as much time thinking about as, obviously, you have. So, it really…putting pieces together that I'm, like, oh yeah, that's totally true! Of, like, I totally forgot, like, the nineties. Like, Ooh, will she have one? Or won't she have one? Like, oh, that's, that is absolutely the stories we were told then.

Steph: Right. Or like, oh, she's, she is getting the abortion, but she's on the way to the clinic and all of a sudden, she has a miscarriage, right?

Jennie: Yes!

Steph: Or like all of a sudden, she changes her mind. Like, that was really what was present then.

Jennie: The other thing I was thinking of before we started talking was the prevalence of like unsafe abortions and stories we see, because I mean the first one I really remember coming across was “Dirty Dancing”.

Steph: Of course. Yeah.

Jennie: And, you know, I'm definitely of that age where that would've been the first one I really encountered. And so, again, that, like, unsafe abortion story, it just keeps popping up. It makes me think of, like, when you're watching…the unsafe abortion stories and then I feel like go right alongside with the maternal mortality stories…That, like, you're watching a movie set in, like, an earlier time, and I'm like, “okay, they're going to…this woman is getting pregnant because they're going to kill her.”

Steph: Yes. Exactly right. Exactly. And that…yes. That's a lot of, actually, what we saw in the earlier depictions of abortions, where there would be a character, even if she had her abortion, she would end up dying later, whether it was from complications from the abortion, or she just happened to die in a car crash. You know, it's like this character is punished for her decision no matter what she does. I think with “Dirty Dancing” is obviously one of my favorite movies of all time, for many reasons, including that Patrick Swayze is very hunky. But I think it's…that is a very important story to tell about illegal abortion, but it can't be the only story that we tell about illegal abortion, right? What we, we almost never see stories of safe, illegal abortion providers from the sixties and from the early seventies, right? There's actually a movie coming out later this year called “Call Jane” that's all about the Jane Collective in Chicago and how they provided safe, illegal abortion. So, I think that'll be a really important addition to the canon of abortion films. And I think moving forward, we'll need to see filmmakers address, you know, today, what does safe, illegal abortion look like?

Jennie: Yeah. That's something that does worry me because you still see that narrative going around that because abortion is going to be illegal, people assume it's going to be unsafe. Because those are the depictions they have seen. And so, yeah, I, I do have that worry of it preventing people from accessing safe, illegal abortion.

Steph: Exactly. Right. And I think that that is what really need to see Hollywood take up that mantle, right? It's not just show medication abortion where someone goes to a clinic or talks to a provider via telehealth, right? That would be amazing to see, to get the abortion pills, but where they are able to order the pills online and have a safe abortion at home. But then I, I also feel like it's incumbent upon them to show that it's medically safe but legally risky, right? Like, what are the legal ramifications of what this person of the, of those, that abortion decision, right? Like, or not the decision, but the way that they had their abortion at home. Like it…maybe they, it was, they were able to have their partner with them, their friends with them, watch a movie during their abortion, have it in the privacy of their own home, not have to face a clinic and protestors, but maybe they're criminalized after they have to go to the doctor for whatever reason and share, thinking that it's, you know, a private environment and when it's not. So, I think that is something that will be really important to, to see in many different ways, across lots of different shows.

Jennie: Yeah. That's absolutely true. I, I would like to see some people understand the, the risks that do exist with the criminalization without going, like, too far into the, like, the opposite, right? Where it's like, yeah. Cuz I could see that happening too.

Steph: Yes. And I, I'm sure “Law & Order” will do a rip from the headlines where someone orders abortion pills online. When they do…they have such a particularly heinous record when it comes to abortion depictions, and I wouldn't be surprised if they, they did that.

Jennie: Okay. So, we talked about the bad, but there are really good abortion depictions…In, in pop culture as well. So, let's, let's talk about those. Those are more fun.

Steph: Yes. For sure. So, over the last couple of years, we've really seen some really interesting, nuanced, complicated, really loving portrayals of abortion, both on film and on television. In 2020, I think there were the, the most abortion films that came out in one single year. It’s really unfortunate that they all came out right at the start of the pandemic when none of us had all this, you know, streaming situation down. But we had “Never Rarely Sometimes Always,” “Unpregnant,” “Portrait of a Lady on Fire,” and “Saint Frances,” and I think one more, “Premature” that all came out that year, all of them showing people accessing abortion, surgical abortion, medication abortion, having the support of a friend or a partner along the way. In “Saint Frances,” in particular, they show a medication abortion, and the, the character has her partner read Harry Potter out loud to her, while she's having her abortion. In “Unpregnant”, it's this hilarious, you know, buddy comedy all about these two teenagers and how, you know, the journey that they need to take to overcome all the barriers placed in front of them. It's really one of the rare depictions of many different kinds of barriers that people face when they access abortion. in “Portrait of a Lady on Fire,” we really have this flipped script where the whole movie is really about these women in their relationship and how they support each other. That's another big trope that we saw, kind of, change over the decades is it really used to be that the focus is on the men and male abortion providers, in particular. And we've seen a, really…a real big shift where the focus is really on the people having the abortion and being kind of, like, moral decision makers themselves. So, that's been really wonderful to see.

Jennie: …Which feels, like, obvious, right?

Steph: Obvious. Yeah. Totally obvious. Yes. Like, of course this should be the center of the story. And also, like, of course, abortion providers have abortions too, which is what we've seen in some medical shows. That's been helpful to see, just, like, fully rounded characters who just have complicated lives, right? Like all of us do. We've also started to see more characters of color have abortions, though not nearly as many as we should see. But, of course, that goes along with TV being Whiter than what the world is in reality. But we saw, you know, almost 10 years ago now, right? Olivia Pope had her abortion on “Scandal.” And since then, we've seen many more characters of color, like this year we had Vic on “Station 19,” have a medication abortion with her, you know, on again off again boyfriend supporting her. A couple years ago, we had a character on “The Bold Type,” who was a queer character, who talked about her past abortion, and she was a Black woman who connected with another queer, Black woman, who talked about her abortion. So, it's these examples of how abortion storytelling can actually bring people together and make relationships and strengthen relationships, right? That's, that's been really heartening to see too.

Jennie: Yeah. I also like the idea of, like, not just showing the abortion but, like, having that connection of storytelling and making it okay. I don't know that okay is the right word, but I still think there's a big stigma around like sharing your abortion story, and there's been a lot of work done, particularly by Renee Bracey Sherman to really, like, knock down that barrier to get…to make it completely normal to share your abortion story, as abortions are completely normal. And it's so great to see that being modeled as well on TV.

Steph: Yeah. Absolutely. And I think that the more that we see characters share with each other their reproductive experiences, whether it's abortion, or miscarriage, or infertility, or just pregnancy. Pregnancy can be really awful. Just sharing with each other, you know, people see it modeled for them on-screen how to share and be vulnerable, and how to receive that story and, you know, really be an empathetic, supportive listener. So, I think that's just as important as seeing the abortion story on-screen too.

Jennie: Yeah. That really ties back to…I just interviewed, like maybe two episodes ago, Katey Zeh on her book, “A Complicated Choice,” and she talks about the importance of, like, dealing with your own internalized abortion stigma and learning how to accept the, the stories you're hearing and being a good listener for people sharing their stories.

Steph: Yeah. You know, and just like you were saying, you know, Renee has done so much incredible work to help storytellers really feel like they can share whatever part of their abortion stories they want. And it's really incumbent upon us as, you know, listeners to accept that, right? And to really support storytellers in whatever way we can.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. Okay. So, we have bad representations. We have good representations. I feel like there's, like, a big gap in, like, I'm sure a lot of things you would love to see, and we've already touched on some of them, but, like, what would you love to see in abortion stories that you haven't seen yet, or haven't seen enough of yet?

Steph: Yeah. I think we touched on some of them. A really big one for me, that's close to my heart, is seeing many more parents having abortions on TV and in film. It's such a, you know, present reality that, you know, the majority of people who have abortions are already parents, understand what it means to raise a child and all the complicated, amazing, debilitating, you know, parts of that. And we really, just, don't see that on screen in, in any form. And if we do, in the few instances that we do, it's an abortion for a fetal abnormality, which is a story that needs to be told, but can't be the only reason that a mom decides that she needs an abortion, right? Plenty of moms decide they need an abortion because they can't afford to have another child, because they need to focus on the kids that they already have, because they know what it, you know, the investment of time and money and patience and love that it takes to raise a baby, and they don't have the ability to do that again, for whatever reason. So, I think just seeing that in all of its different forms on dramas, on comedies would be incredible, and not just one mom on one episode, you know, kind of like a throwaway story, but really, like, an in-depth nuanced exploration of that. And we have that a little bit in this one Australian show called “The Letdown,” which is all about parenting and about moms, and in their second season, it's all about this main character's decision to have an abortion. And it was incredible to watch, like, she shares it with her circle of mom friends at the end. It was just really beautiful. And I would love to see that in, you know, in American context on more shows. I think another piece is that, because of all of the different types of content that's available now, it's really hard to say, you know, one abortion plot line and one show is gonna make a difference. So, I think that the more abortion plot lines we have across genre and across venue, the better. Abortion should be, you know, part and parcel of every kind of possible character experience, like pregnancy, divorce, breakups, people getting together, like, all of these, kind of, elements of storytelling, abortion should be incorporated into that, you know, grab back. I would also love to see an entire series that focuses on abortion, on abortion clinics, or abortion funds, or people who travel around the country to help other people get abortions. This topic really deserves that kind of attention and exploration, right? Abortion has everything in it. It has, like, love, drama, medicine, human rights, death, sex, power, relationships, like, all of it that makes for good TV. You just need good, creative storytellers to figure that out and parcel it out together, right? And I, I know we have those people who want to do that and just need, you know, the resources and networks to get behind them. Another piece that I know we talked about briefly is just showing, you know, safe, illegal abortion, and both the medical, social, and legal ramifications of that, right? That will be huge going forward. We really need storytellers in Hollywood who are committed to that. I would love to see more depictions of independent clinics. We often see Planned Parenthood on TV, which is great. We also know that the majority of people get their abortions at independent or non-Planned Parenthood clinics, right? So, I would love to see more of that too.

Jennie: I would also really love to see a trans or non-binary character…

Steph: Oh my God. Yes. Yeah.

Jennie: …Getting an abortion, like, I'm so sick of the conversation that's happening on Twitter, or wherever, about like, not wanting to fully embrace the full range of people who need access to care. And so, I would really love to have a really nice depiction of that.

Steph: Yes.

Jennie: Um, to help break down some of that stigma. Cuz I think once people start to understand it, some of that stuff will hopefully fall a little bit away, but yeah. It would be really great to see it.

Steph: Yeah. And I think not just one, but multiple, right? So people understand first that, like, cisgender, queer folks have abortions. Like, I think that's kind of a big mystery to a lot of people, right? And then, saying not just that, but, like, everyone needs access to abortion: trans folks, nonbinary folks. And those people also worked to provide abortions too! Surprise, surprise! You know. Part of our everyday lives! So, I think there's that piece. And then, you know, that brings up also this demographic representation piece that I think we really need to see, and that's not just characters of color in general that we need to see more of having abortions, but Black women, Latinas in particular, we have almost no biracial representation in people seeking abortions on TV. We have very few, if any Native folks, and we have very few disabled characters in general and then, of course, seeking healthcare services or abortion services. So, there's just a lot of work to be done to fold in these different parts of identity that I think can be done in a really interesting way, right? Because all of that adds nuance and complexity to storytelling, which is what you wanna watch on TV, right? You wanna watch something good.

Jennie: Yeah. And I was thinking the other thing, like, you mentioned talking about, like, abortion funds and a lot of these other things you would love to see represented. I would love to see them represented also in, like, maybe even a tangential way, like, people need jobs, right? So, like, somebody is working for this, so maybe it's not, like, the plot point, but it's like the background of, like, talking about it, and it would really be great to just see…there's a lot of us that work in repro. Like, we could also be reflected in our jobs, like, as part of this community. I don't know.

Steph: I mean, I could imagine, like, a kooky workplace comedy that's like “Parks and Rec,” but of an abortion clinic, or an abortion fund, or an abortion nonprofit. Like, there are lots of shenanigans and hijinks, you know, that, that could be depicted…

Jennie: Yes!

Steph: …that I think would go a long way towards normalizing abortion in a lot of different ways, right? It's amazing to see the procedure on-screen, but there's a lot about abortion that happens outside of the procedure room, right?

Jennie: Yeah. You know, I appreciate the idea of like demystifying what happens cuz I think you, you did touch on like the medical part is like…Something that people have no real idea about, so, like, that's important, but it's also just the, like, normalizing some of the conversations that are happening would also be really great as well.

Steph: Yes. Absolutely.

Jennie: Okay. So, because I'm sure you have one, what is your, like, favorite or couple favorite depictions that you have seen?

Steph: Oh my goodness. There are a couple of them that stand out in my mind. And I think it's, it's funny. I think both of them are from 2016. One is the, there's a “BoJack Horseman” episode about abortion. Um, that is, I think in my mind, like, the gold standard of an abortion comedy episode. Like, the jokes are hilarious, the butt of the joke is not abortion, but abortion restrictions and politicians who restrict abortion, there's an amazing mansplaining abortion joke, a character who's struggling with infertility supports the character having an abortion, and they kind of talk a little bit about, you know, I think she, one of them says to the other, like, “is it hard for you to be here?” And the other one is like, “no, it's actually great to be here with you going through this.” There's this hilarious pretense about this, like, fake abortion that happened. It's just so funny and also so heartfelt. Just, every time I watch it, I like find something new that I love and is hilarious. So, I just encourage people to watch that episode. It's called “Brrap Brrap Pew Pew.” And then another one is the, “Jane the Virgin” episode about medication abortion. And I love that episode, in particular, because it is about the conflict between Xiomara and her mom. The conflict isn't about, you know, whether Xiomara should have an abortion or not. It's about how her mom finds out and how she should tell her mom. And it's this, you know, beautiful examination of intergenerational attitudes about abortion that I think was really, just, poignant and well done.

Jennie: Those are great. I actually don't think I have seen either of them, but I've definitely heard of the “BoJack Horseman” one…

Steph: Mm-hmm. So good.

Jennie:…and I've been like meaning to watch it. And I, this may finally push me over the edge to go seek it out and make it happen. I was thinking…one of the ones I was thinking of was Christina Yang on “Grey's Anatomy” when…

Steph: Oh yeah.

Jennie: She is, like, very clear. Like, I don't want kids, and it's, like, not within my career goals. Cuz I feel like, oftentimes, it plays onto two things that really are in like my wheelhouse of like not wanting kids and, like, being seen as like selfish or whatever for that being your reason. And, like, career focus and, like, that being, being seen as selfish.

Steph: Totally.

Jennie: And I really love that it tackled both of them, kind of, together.

Steph: Yes. And also, we never see Asian women represented on TV or making decisions to have an abortion or, kind of, otherwise. So, I think that was really a breakthrough moment, for many reasons. And at the same time, those kind of reasons for having an abortion, you know, career or educational attainment are way overrepresented on TV, compared to reality. So, like, in reality, we see a lot of, like, economic coercion-related reasons that are not represented on TV. Like, people who don't have the money to raise, raise a child or raise another child, right? Whether it's a mistimed pregnancy, like, they wanna be pregnant, just not right now. They don't wanna have a baby with the partner that they're with. Like, those are things that we don't see on TV. And I think helps people to have this misconception about abortion that it's not an issue of economic justice that, you know, it's not an issue of, that parents have to deal with. So, I would love if we could see, in addition to those, like obviously very important legit reasons, and let's be clear, any reason that you wanted abortion is legit. We should see the full gamut, right? We shouldn't just see the education and job reasons. We should see everything.

Jennie: No, absolutely. I would love to just see abortion stories that reflect the reality of, like, what abortion storytellers and abortion seekers are saying and…

Syd: Right.

Jennie: Would, just, love to see that full range depicted.

Steph: Right.

Jennie: And I think that really would help with the, like, perception of, like, good abortions and bad abortions. Like, your reason is your reason and they're all valid. So, being able to portray them all and have it seen that way, I think may help, again, chip away at that stigma that there is so much of we're still working to fight through.

Steph: Yeah. Absolutely. And to your point, a lot of the times we see, you know, it's the promiscuous character who is able to go and get her abortion and that is wonderful. Like, we need to see every type of character have their abortion. It shouldn't be just the Samantha Jones character, right? It should be all the characters who are able to have their abortions and feel good about them. Right?

Jennie: Yes. Okay. So, we always like to wrap up with a, an action item. So, is there something your audience can do around these issues?

Steph: I think the big thing is really to stop perpetuating this idea that there are, there are no abortions on film and television and to go to our website: abortiononscreen.org and to peruse our list of over 500, you know, film and TV shows that feature an abortion plot line, and pick some to watch, and see what you think, right? See, does it actually depict abortion in a way that feels real to you, whether, you know, medically or socially, or does it feel wrong in some way? And talk to people about it. Right? Pop culture is a great opener and equalizer to have these kinds of conversations, right? If you're looking for a way to talk to your mom or your cousin or your neighbor about abortion, right? You can always watch a TV show or a movie and then talk about it.

Jennie: I love that. And definitely go check out that website. There, it was fun to play around on there and see all of the various abortion stories that were…have been told on film and TV.

Steph: Thanks. Yeah. We have a lot of fun doing this work.

Jennie: Yeah. I, there was definitely a lot that I need to go watch that I haven't seen, and it's nice to have a big list, and in ways that feel less like work than some of the other abortion related things that there are to watch, like, at least watching like a TV show or a movie feels a little more fun.

Steph: Yes. For sure.

Jennie: Well, Steph. Thank you so much for being here. I really enjoyed talking to you about abortion on TV and film.

Steph: Thanks for having me. It's so fun to talk about this.

Jennie: Okay, y’all. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Steph. What are your favorite abortion stories you have seen on film and TV? Reach out to us on social and share. I would love to hear it. I, yeah, I, I shared mine, which was well, one, “Dirty Dancing,” Cuz I just love that movie and it, I saw it at a really formative age to, like, really impact me. But the one I shared in the episode was the Christina Yang's second one from “Grey's Anatomy.” So, yeah. If you have an abortion story that you have seen on film or TV that you love to share with us to let us know your favorite, please feel free to reach out. You can find us on social. We’re at @reprosfightback on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. And as always, you can email me at Jennie, J-E-N-N-I-E@reprosfightback.com. Otherwise, I will see y’all in two weeks! For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit us at our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at @reprosfightback and on Instagram at @reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends, and please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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