How Has the Biden Administration and Congress Responded to the Abortion Crisis?

There has been a flurry of executive and Congressional action after the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization Supreme Court case that overturned Roe v. Wade. Leila Abolfazli, Director of Federal Reproductive Rights at the National Women’s Law Center, sits down to talk with us about executive and Congressional measures being taken on abortion rights in the United States.

The executive order issued by the Biden administration is split into four main sections that: 1) directs the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS) on actions to take; 2) convenes private, pro-bono attorneys and Bar associations in an effort to represent patients, providers, and other third parties who lawfully seeking or providing reproductive health care; 3) asked the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) to protect people’s online data when seeking information about or seeking abortion care; and 4) outlines other laws that HHS can support, including strengthening the Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act (HIPAA) and creating an HHS-Gender Policy Council taskforce that coordinates federal agency response to abortion. You can find additional information about this executive order here. 

Congress held five hearings after the release of the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization ruling in the House Oversight Committee, House Energy and Commerce Committee, House Judiciary Committee, Senate Judiciary Committee, and Senate Health, Education, Labor, and Pension Committee. The House passed a bill called the Ensuring Access to Abortion Act, which would ensure protection of those crossing state lines to receive an abortion. In addition, the House passed the Women’s Health Protection Act which would cement a federal right to abortion. The Respect for Marriage Act passed in the House would protect same-sex marriage, while the Right to Contraception Act passed in the House would protect the right to birth control access. Lastly, the Senate voted on emergency funding for Title X clinics—family planning clinics across the United States that provides millions of people with basic healthcare.

Links from this episode

National Women’s Law Center on Twitter
National Women’s Law Center on Facebook
Jennie in DC Abortion Resources Tweet Thread
I Need An A
Abortion Fund Donation Finder
Plan C Pills
Miscarriage and Abortion Hotline
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund
Boom! Lawyered Podcast
Access: A Podcast About Abortion

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more – giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Hi rePROs! How's everybody doing? I’m your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So, I hope everybody's doing okay. It is hot and gross and swampy humid Washington, DC. I am looking forward to not going outside. Yeah. To just staying in and not going out and sweating and being all gross. Yeah. So, I was really thinking about what I wanted to talk about in the intro to this week's episode, and, you know, one of the things that has really been on my mind recently is how hard it can sometimes be to get accurate information or the most up to date information. So, I wanted to make sure to give y'all some resources to check out, so you can find tools that are going to meet your needs. So, you know, pause here, take a second and get a pen if you want. Otherwise, we'll have links to all of these things available in the show notes. Another option is I have been regularly tweeting about this, and I have a tweet thread that I will pin to the top of my Twitter profile, @JennieinDC, that will have all of these resources plus much, much more that is in that tweet thread. I don't wanna just read all of them because it's a lot, and y’all, that will get boring if I'm just reading a ton of resources. But I wanted to give you some of the most important ones here, so that way you have them and are able to utilize them in the way that works best for you. So, again, we'll have links in the show notes, or you can visit my Twitter page, which is @JennieinDC. And there…my tweet pins to the top will be that thread with all of the resources I wanna talk about here and more. Okay. Let's get started. I think one of the first things that, that is a real challenge for people is finding your closest provider. You know, abortion restrictions, court orders, like so many things are changing week, week, day to day, sometimes hour to hour, that it's really hard to find the provider closest to you who's going to meet your needs. So, there are two really wonderful resources that are worth checking out. So, one is, I Need an A, so, ineedana.com, and the other one is abortionfinder.org. Both of them will help you find the provider closest to you. They're updated very regularly to reflect any changes in law or status of abortion near you. You will be able to find the abortion provider who's going to meet your needs. Both of them, I think, will ask you some questions to try to determine how far along you are, what kind of abortion you're looking for, and they will help you find the provider that is closest to you, who is able to meet your needs and wants. So yes. Definitely check out ineedana.com and abortionfinder.org. Another thing that some people are going to want to look into is to learn how to access at-home abortion pill options online. And if that is you, a really great resource to check out is Plan C Pills. They are trusted, feel free to use them. They will give you all the information you need. And if you have questions or need some help with self-managing your miscarriage or abortion, a really wonderful resource is to check out is the M + A Hotline. So, M + A Hotline, and they will help you with your self-managed miscarriage or abortion needs. You know, one of the things we have talked about on the podcast is that this is not the pre-Roe era, where you have to worry about unsafe abortions, where abortion is illegal in the same way you did then. There are safe options you can access. You know, we've talked about medication abortion and plan C pills. There are things you can do where abortion is criminalized in your state, and the risk is not going to be medical. It's going to be criminalization.

Jennie: So, if you have questions, legal questions, or you need legal advice, a really great place to check out is the If/When/How Repro Legal Helpline, they can help talk to you about any concerns you may have in that area around criminalization. They're a great resource. Check them out. And in the terrible case you need them, the Repro Legal Fund covers bail, and funds strong defenses for people who are investigated, arrested, are prosecuted for self-managed abortion. They're definitely worth checking out if you need them, and hopefully you will never need them, but the Repro Legal Fund. And in that vein, one of the things that is gonna be really important in this moment is protecting your digital security and your digital footprint. Um, so you really wanna make sure that you are doing everything you can to protect your digital privacy. If you are in an area where abortion is criminalized, it's gonna be really, really important. A really wonderful resource to make sure you are doing all the things you need to do and can do to protect your digital footprint is to check out the Digital Defense Fund. They’ll have a lot of great information for you on the steps you need to take to protect your digital footprint. Yes. So, that is another great resource to check out. Another thing that I would like to recommend are some podcasts where you can go to learn more information, and actually, both of the ones I'm gonna recommend have been on this show before. So, I really do enjoy both of them and always turn to them. So, first is Boom! Lawyered, with Jessica Mason Pieklo and Imani Gandy. Y'all, this is who I turn to when there, I have repro legal questions or concerns. Like, I always listen to their podcast. I never miss it. Definitely recommend checking it out. I also, you know, check out their reporting. It is really wonderful, and they are the person, people I turn to when I have questions about what is happening right now. Another really great podcast and was actually on ours recently is Garnet Henderson, who hosts the ACCESS pod: A podcast about abortion. Again, highly recommend. Always check this podcast out. It's really great. Um, yeah. Definitely check out ACCESS: A podcast about abortion and Garnet’s reporting as well. Um, she's freelance reporter, so you kind of have to follow her on Twitter to find her reporting, but yeah. Definitely check her out. So, I know that was a lot of information and a big information dump at the beginning of the podcast. Again, links will be in the show notes, and, again, you can always go to my Twitter page. I will have all of these resources and more in my pinned tweet. We'll have a thread to all of them, plus more things that I think are important and you should know, but were too much to include in this introduction. So, you can always check out more information there. Okay. With that, let's turn to this week's interview. I'm really excited to talk to the wonderful Leila Abolfazli, at the National Women’s Law Center, all about what has been happening recently. We talk about the executive action from the Biden administration. We talk about what Congress has been doing. There has been a lot of things happening, and this will be your chance to catch up on all of it. So, with that, let's turn to my interview with Leila. Hi Leila! Thank you so much for being here today!

Leila: Hello, hello! Thanks for having me, Jennie!

Jennie: So, Leila, before we get started, do you wanna take a quick second and introduce yourself, and include your pronouns?

Leila: Of course! Thanks Jennie. Leila Abolfazli. I'm Director of Federal Reproductive Rights at the National Women’s Law Center (NWLC), and I use she/her pronouns.

Jennie: I'm so excited to have you here to talk about all the things that have been happening, I guess, in DC recently. We're not just gonna talk about the executive, but there's been, I'm sure much to your…I would say chagrin, but they're like good things, like, are overwhelming. There has been a lot happening.

Leila: Yeah. That is a good way to put it, uh, a lot in all the places, but really just in response to the chaos that everyone's feeling in their lives right now.

Jennie: Yes. Okay. So, let's start with maybe the first thing people are familiar with. The Biden Administration issued an executive order. So, what is in the executive order?

Leila: So there are basically, I think, four main sections, but I, you know, the way that I see the first one is really guiding HHS to say, you know, in 30 days here are things that I, we would like you to do. And just a note, in the initial days after HHS had done some initial pieces, including, um, getting ReproductiveRights, the website, online and, and some other things along that more information sharing. But the first part is, is HHS, do the things you can. Identify the actions, the ways to protect and expand abortion care, specifically noting medication abortion, think about the other reproductive healthcare that people will need, and they name specifically ensuring access to emergency contraception, outreach, public information, talk about the ways that people can get reproductive healthcare, and just all, you know, look at the existing laws that you have to protect people, including EMTALA, which is the short way of saying Emergency Medical Treatment and Labor Act. So, that's, like, the first part that's like, HHS, go forth. Then there's a piece about the attorney general and the Council of the President convening a meeting of private pro bono attorneys, bar associations, basically the law field, basically saying the White House is putting its heft behind the legal bar, stepping up and, and helping people in the ways that the seams of our legal system is falling apart post-Dobbs, and really saying that they are going to be the conveners of this private bar effort. And so, you know, you could imagine that there are probably…I have connections with lawyers across the country, and that's actually…a lot of this is a countrywide problem, and we need a countrywide response. And so, the folks in states and various states are raising their hand to help out. And that's what it suggests, that they would help getting these people together. The third section is about privacy, safety and security. Now, this is really important because folks have seen a lot about how, how is my data online and how is that gonna be used against me? And so, they talk about that, actually, and they name specifically the Federal Trade Commission acting along these lines to protect people. So, you know, really putting…that they included that as a separate, um, section in this executive order underscores how important this data protection issue is right now and how fraught we are in this post-Dobbs world. And then, you know, then it names other laws that the Health and Human Services (HHS) could act, including people have heard a lot about this in COVID, but HIPAA, the Health Insurance Portabililty and Accountability Act, about protecting people's sensitive information. People should know that HIPAA is not a law that protects all the care from all the people, but it's important to have robust enforcement for what it does. And it asks the HHS secretary to work with the attorney general in figuring out how to tell people about how to protect themselves online. And then, there's a task force that's set up that is between HHS and the director of Gender Policy Council. And this is about what should the federal government be doing across the agencies and letting this task force to really coordinate it. Every agency touches abortion care. And what, really, this executive order acknowledges and says that they're going to address is that every agency is touched by it. People's workers have protections in the law for seeking abortion care. So, Labor Department. Um, people seeking abortion care and thinking about the roles of employers and, and so our Treasury Department. Who else is involved in this? FTC, FCC, just every agency imaginable is involved. And then, it talks about the attorney general again, about helping folks, and, and as I think about their legal protections, traveling across state lines, the providers as well, and it really just says in a, in a broad way, go forth, agencies! And, and, and really use everything that you've got to address the crisis we're in, and obviously, on abortion specifically, but, you know, HHS talks about other reproductive healthcare more broadly.

Jennie: So that's a lot, right? Like, it touches a lot of things. I think it's probably worth talking about, like, what it doesn't do because I think there's was maybe some confusion about, like, what it does…what it can do and what it can't do. Yeah. Maybe I'll let you start there.

Leila: So, and this has now been two weeks, I think of time is not flat. It’s been two weeks ago. And so, just to quickly say what's happened since then, DOJ set up a task force last week to implement the piece about the private bar and, and coordinating among that. I was just preparing for this podcast actually dug into both the Federal Trade Commission and the Federal, I don't even…Federal Communications Commission. I'm, like, learning about all these agencies in real-time too. I'm like, what do you all do? You know, they have issued some pretty incredible pieces about data privacy. And so, they've init-…issued stuff to internet providers on what they're doing. And then, the days after we had HHS issue both EMTALA guidance and Section 5057 guidance for pharmacies. So, there's been a slew of actions that happened after that, which is exactly what those of us at the law center were hoping would happen, that this executive order was basically like now go forth. We rely on the agencies to have their expertise and to marry that expertise with how to protect abortion access. And we…I've seen that in real concrete ways and encourage folks to read, for example, Federal Trade Commission has a blog talking about, you know, their commitment to fully enforcing the law against legal use and sharing of highly sensitive data, some really troubling things in there about, about this. So, I think in terms of the day the executive order came out is, and to acknowledge that we are in, in a nightmare crisis that was manmade by Supreme Court justices, right? And, and there is a desperate need for help on the ground and for the patients who are at loss on what they're, what they can do, and the providers who are doing heroic, and really should not be asked for, but incredible work to get people care. So, I also wanna level set on where we are when he issued the executive order was and is that people are absolutely desperate for support and help. Patients are scrambling, are unable to get the care or unsure about the care. The anti-abortion movement is so emboldened that the threats is just a scorched-earth campaign. They're going after people for travel. They're threatening, right and left. And providers are doing the heroic work of trying to figure out care for people, moving across state lines, packing up stuff, opening, doing the longer hours, all this stuff that people are doing. And so, really we want administration that is there seeing that and, and providing whatever tools they can. And so, I think the day the executive order came out, it did feel like words on paper, right? In the sense of what does this actually mean for me and my moment? And so, that's why, you know, I am encouraged by the things I've seen from the, the agencies coming out. And that they really are, that, you know, SEC and FTC are out the door with stuff. You know, they're not the ones you think about initially when you think about abortion care, you think about HHS. You know, that A.G. Garland and the DOJ is already setting up this task force and getting moving, and I think that is what we need is all these pieces moving together quickly and with an urgency, and I, I have seen that tick up since the executive order. I think there are some big asks that we would like to see them do to really show more of the, uh, teeth to what the executive order’s message is, which is we're really willing to put all of our resources, this whole of government to addressing the crisis. And, you know, folks have been asking for public health emergency act, which can help, and folks have been asking for maybe if they could support abortion travel and the people who are seeking care. Um, they, they said all the things in the executive order about, like, looking into the legal issues and the DOJ being there, and I think that's right. And then it's also what are the pieces that people need in their lives in real moment, and, you know, they've indicated a strong support for medication abortion and all of that is gonna be important. And so, I think we're at this moment where it's like, okay, you, you kind of unleashed your whole government now let's get going

Jennie: For sure. And you know, really when you talk about the other side being so emboldened, to me, I mean, there's like two big things that have happened now that like really showcase that, but not talking about, I think the one that, like, everybody's really like the most upset about with the, the 10-year-old, maybe we'll turn and talk about instead, Texas suing over EMTALA.

Leila: Yeah.

Jennie: Which just shows like they're not stopping, they're, like, tripling down.

Leila: That's right. That's right. And, you know, if you take a moment and step back in what they are saying, Texas is saying, and so, HHS issued guidance to hospitals, reminding them of their legal work obligations under EMTALA about…

Jennie: And, like, reminding, right? Like, not new.

Leila: Right. Not new. And really, you know, what we're hearing from the stories of hospitals saying, they, they don't know what to do now. And, and there was actually a hearing on Tuesday and the AMA president testified, and he talked about how, when you…you know, how sick is sick before you can step in and provide care? And that's under, maybe there there's a life exception, and this is why exceptions don't actually work, right? Because if the anti-abortion movement is in charge of implementing them, right? And, and they are doing the scorched-earth strategy, then how could anybody be sure of what their legal liability is? And when? And so, I think that the point of HHS saying, reminding hospitals, look, you have this federal obligation, and then the state saying, no, no. Texas suing to say, no, there's no requirement to save lives. And that is, in essence, what they're saying then, I mean, how is this the timeline at this point?

Jennie: Yeah.

Leila: It, it's a farce that Texas sued just days after to say, no, let's let women die. And I wanna underscore that, that really, that is an emboldened movement that they think they can even get away with that.

Jennie: Yeah. And I guess I will turn to the 10-year-old one, cuz it was just so horrifying where you would see a lot of the anti-abortion groups, like, actually saying she should have carried it…she should have carried it, like, not compounded the tragedy. And as somebody who works in global repro, as well as domestic, like, we know what that means, right? Like, we know what that means. Maternal mortality is the leading cause of death for girls 15 to 19 around the world. We know that girls younger than that, the risk is even higher. Like, this is actually a life and death decision, and for them to, again, be, like, doubling down on their hard-line stance is just infuriating.

Leila: Yeah. I, I think that the global perspective is actually really important here, is that we have the experiences and examples of those who live in countries where, either there's a lack of access to care, or there are bans, or both. And you see the reality of our future and, and our future is now. And I'm saying that in the, the sad way and not the motivating way that future is now is supposed to be used. And what the country is waking up to, that those of us who work in the movement and…is that this has always been the strategy of the anti-abortion movement, that they are so… they are extreme. And, really, in so many ways, cruelty is the point because the end goal here is controlling. It is not anything about protecting people and their lives. And these stories that the public is seeing is seeing that firsthand, and this is why we've been fighting so hard and to say, you know…when you start questioning one person's access, we all rise and fall together. And here we are. We are all falling together. And, and so in moving forward to a, a new world, post-Dobbs, as we try to build towards a new protection or right for abortion, we need to be clear that they…all of these cases, these people deserve dignity, and they deserve respect and our care and compassion and empathy. And the way the other side, both wants to suggest that these situations won't happen, that there's no life saving abortion care, and also saying that it's okay, that extremism is, is applicable, whether it is a person needing a termination for life-threatening reasons or needing a termination, because they do not want to be pregnant. And if we go back to the core that this is about forcing people to carry pregnancies to term and what that means, then I, I think that that's what the country's basically waking up to.

Jennie: Yeah. And I think the, the third thing we've been seeing then is them also arguing that those cases aren't actually abortions, which I found wild because, like, there's, like, a medical definition and yes, that is an abor-, like, abortion is ending a pregnancy. And so, whatever you wanna say, those things are, they are abortions.

Leila: Yeah. Yeah. You know, I've now, if folks haven't seen, there's been five congressional hearings in the last two weeks on the crisis, and the people who testified about the crisis and about the bans all did a terrific job. I, I recommend people watching them if they can. And I think in the oversight, House Oversight hearing last week was where we saw the anti-abortion witness say that, uh, specifically that it's not abortion care when the life is threatened. And, it really goes to show, both that I think they're worried about this position undermining their cause. But also, this is why these people shouldn't be making these decisions about medical care. And, you know, at one point, in the hearing at Energy and Commerce about the crisis, the AMA president was asked by a Republican lawmaker…the Republican lawmaker accused, um, the AMA president of making decisions based on politics and not what people need, and the AMA president turned it around and said, “I'm here precisely because you guys are stopping us from practicing based on medicine and science.” And I think what feels so terrible is that we have real life examples of people saying, here are my…here is my life, and here is how this happened. And they want to say that it didn't happen. And so, it, you know, I, I think back to animal farm, and that's what it, it, it really feels like that they're saying this didn't happen, this didn't happen, hoping that it goes away. And these are real people with their lives really, um, that they, that they're suffering, and then that they're thrown into this, like the, and, and told that they're, they're actually didn't happen. It didn’t happen that way.

Jennie: Yeah. And I think, you know, we've really been hearing a lot of the extreme stories and, like, they're important to raise the alarm, but also, I, I do kind of worry that, like, you keep hearing those extreme stories and, like, everyday abortion stories are gonna get lost or start seeing… continue to see that like good abortion and bad abortion, like, trope perpetuated. And just, like, all abortions…like, your reason is a valid reason, no matter what.

Leila: Yeah.

Jennie: And like, I, I just worry that in the reporting and, like, this is, like, where the storytellers are so important of getting all the stories out, but, like, reporters are, like, really interested in like those extreme stories, and I do worry about, like, just your average, just everyday person getting an abortion story is getting lost.

Leila: Yeah. I, you know, I have too, I've been thinking about that a lot as well. And, and, and really what does storytelling look like in a post-Roe world, right? When people now, like, there is legal risk and liability.

Jennie: Right.

Leila: And so, who is willing to share their story? And we appreciate people willing to share their story. And those who are not, we understand. I think Renee Bracey Sherman said that, specifically, in…when she testified on Tuesday from We Testify. You know, the night that Dobbs came out, the night of, two things happened to me. I was driving back after an outing with the family and, you know, a song from the eighties came on and I was like, man, abortion was legal back then. Like, I, you know, my life became this idea of, like, when abortion was legal and when it's not. And my second thought was there are people getting pregnant tonight who will wake up without access to abortion. And I, my, the nightmare for these people, and we've read a few stories come out, but you're right. There's a whole scores of people. And to think that they're going through all this, which is that this is that then they're in a banned state. Are they going to be able to access care? Are they able to manage it safely at home? Or cross state lines to seek it at a clinic because that's what they prefer? You know, whatever it is. And they have to do so in the shadows, that we have forced people into the shadows for something that is not wrong and is very valid. And so, how do you tell people you're, you are valid when they see in the papers the way the anti-abortion movement is so emboldened. And I, you know, as you bring in the data privacy stuff into this, it just takes on a whole ‘nother level because we are not pre-Roe. We are post-Roe, where all of our lives are online and what that means for people and their security. And I hate that for us. I hate that for everybody who is experiencing it now, and, and know there are people who are out there who see you but get that you can't be seen.

Jennie: Yeah. And, like, people…they deserve to have people screaming mad about their situation just as much as the extreme situation.

Leila: That's right.

Jennie: That's kind of where I'm at.

Leila: That’s right. That’s right.

Jennie: Okay. Let's get back on track. So, that's the administration and what the administration has been doing. Let's turn to what you have already mentioned: a lot of the things that have been happening in Congress. There has been a slew of hearings.

Leila: Yeah.

Jennie: What has Congress been doing?

Leila: Uh, I totally forgot that, that I previewed that! So, Congress came in back in session last week. So, when the decision came down on June 24th, they were out…both The House and Senate were not in session. And so, they came back, and there was a slew of activity, including these hearings. There were five hearings. I'll just list them out in case folks are interested. The House of Representatives Oversight Committee, The House of Representatives Energy and Commerce Committee and Judiciary Committee all had hearings on the issue of abortion. The House Judiciary also looked at the attacks on other rights, following Thomas's…Justice Thomas's super troubling concurrence, saying there is no right to substantive due process. Haha! And please, lower judges, listen to me and start doing all those bad things. And then, in the Senate Judiciary Committee, and Senate HELP Committee, there were hearings. And they really told the story. We had a wide range of folks who testified, really telling the compelling story of the nightmare and chaos we are in. And it is so terrible. And so, alongside that there were slew of bills that have been introduced. The right to travel, a bill that would protect the right to travel, The House voted on that last week, along with another vote on the Women’s Health Protection Act. The Women’s Health Protection Act would give a federal right to abortion. And so, that would strike at all the 500 medically unnecessary restrictions that are in place and at the bans that are now stopping care in dozens of states, nearly a dozen. And so, then the Senate had a, basically an up or down vote on the right to travel bill last week too, really energized floor statements from the senators. And, and also, I should say The House members, I mean, people are feeling this, uh, house…senators and representatives are really feeling this. And so, really talked about that. And then, this week there was both a right, uh, bill to protect same sex marriage and also a bill to provide a right to birth control in addition to…you still have a constitutional right to birth control just to be clear and also marriage that has not been struck down, but they are under a threat, clearly, by Thomas's concurrence and also actions that are happening across the states to undermine a birth control access. The House voted on those two this week. And then, the Senate did an up or down on…vote on emergency funding for Title X clinics. Title X clinics are the backbone of critical primary care in our country, providing family planning services. They were so undermined and hurt under the Trump administration. And they’re rebuilding. And they're gonna be key to our future of building back comprehensive access to reproductive healthcare. So, they did that, um, today, or yesterday. So, what remains? We'll see. There are more bills being introduced. I will note House of Represent- members of the House of Representatives were arrested and…on Tuesday in an action outside The Capitol, and really some of the social media coming out from them, you know, this is, this is real. This is raw feelings from these members and, and truly, you know, I…keeping the drum beat going as the drum beat keeps going in the media about just what a chaos-nightmare we're in.

Jennie: Yeah. And, and I think also really worth noting as we're living through the hell of being Cassandra again and being, like, no, we really do need to worry about birth control and same-sex marriage and all of the talking heads being like, “They're not gonna do anything. Don't worry about it.” So, how did those votes actually go in the house?

Leila: It's a good question. So, in the right to marriage bill, I think there were, like, all the Dems plus 50 Republicans joined to support, and then something around 147 Republicans opposed, which is simply shameful. Family…I mean, just to think of the families that they were speaking to and saying no to it's just, it really, it was a moment of just…my stomach was turning thinking about that. And the birth control vote, every Dem voted for it and nearly every Republican voted against it. And the birth control bill is simple. It gives a right to birth control. And to your point about, oh, it's not at risk it's, you know, we have been fighting for nearly a decade just to eliminate copays for military families. They pay copays for their birth control. For nearly a decade! It is a small fix that should have been done the first year and every year the Republicans block it. And so, it's just astounding to me because the common point yesterday when they were arguing against the bill, Republicans said they support contraception and wish that the Dems had worked with them. But proof is in the pudding, as they say, that it's been nearly a decade doing even this small thing and they opposed it and same for VA birth control access in the veterans, uh, healthcare system. So…I, it's just, it's astounding to me. And it really does show the through line of this is about controlling and who has power and who doesn't, and that there are people who really still haven't got over the fact that women, they're thinking of women in particular, although it's not just women that use birth control or need abortion care, but that women got freedom when they were given the right to these decisions. And now, they wanna take us back, and not just to the 1970s or 1960s, but Justice Alito was talking about the 1850s when we were not separate entities, that we were an entity of our husbands. And so, to me, it is a broader conversation too. It's not just birth control. It's not just abortion. It's how do we view women in this country? And how do we view diversity and people living out their true selves? And one side is basically saying, no. You have to be like me and only me.

Jennie: Yeah. It's…it just feels really bleak and, like, hard to feel hope at the moment. Like, it's there. Like, I feel it looking at all of the amazing things that abortion providers are doing and, like, letting that channel me through all of this because otherwise…man, shit is bleak.

Leila: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, we'll just admit all of us breakdown at random times through the week and day.

Jennie: Yeah. For sure.

Leila: To be an advocate in the movement, it is, it is emotionally taxing because we see it every day and we hear anti-abortion movement, who tells us it's not happening. Or they tell us…they call us terrible things, right? And so, and meanwhile, we see this, the helpers, right? And we think about the people who are just trying to get by in life and are just trying to get this healthcare, and the clinic workers and the clinic staff and you know, just the stories of people just going the extra 30 miles, right? Not…physically and meta-physically for people. And so, you're right is to say, I have to keep going because these people are keeping going, and they, they need all of us. And I think, you know, I'm reading “A Wrinkle in Time” with a kid for the first time. I guess I shouldn’t admit that…I think, I’m, like, a total…what happened to me that I haven't read it before? But…

Jennie: I didn’t read it either.

Leila: Okay. Okay good. Well, there's something about the anger keeping you going. And I've always liked the piece, stay, stay mad, Meg. You'll need it. And, you know, don't become complacent, actually, because that's what the anti-abortion movement wants us to do. They want us to burn out and feel like we've lost and to give up. And people who need this care can't have us do that. And so, you know…yeah.

Jennie: And then just think, like, we're gonna build something better. Like, I can't think about…I try not to focus on like all of the people who are not able to get care right now cuz that paralyzes me. I, I stay mad on their behalf, but just think of, like, we are going to build a better world where there is better access than we had before. Because we know it wasn't great before.

Leila: That's right. That's right. And then that world is gonna be driven by the folks in the states who are doing the incredible work and passion to rebuilding that world. And I, I acknowledge their work and labor there, and that they're gonna really lead the way for us to say, this is how my state’s is gonna do it.

Jennie: Okay. Well, I feel like that leads us perfectly into what can our audience do in this moment? What, what actions can they take to help fight back?

Leila: So, I think all of us are saying this, and I just wanna be clear that this is…what happened in Dobbs and what the Supreme Court did is not limited to Dobbs. This is a broader point about our democracy and the…how sick our democracy is. And so, fighting back includes the broader democracy work that you may have thought of doing or may do, which is, you know, protecting people's right to vote, and showing up in your local community in the civic affairs there, and then showing up in your local community for whoever's doing the abortion work there. People are doing abortion work in your community. So, take their lead, be patient if they're slammed. They are slammed. And really listen to them. Become a monthly contributor to funds, abortion funds. Those are the people providing practical support. So, become a sustaining member to them and just commit to that going forward. And don't get complacent. Remember this in a few months. Remember this in a few years. Remember this intent 20, 30 years, and keep doing the things to help us get to this new world that Jennie just outlined. We're gonna get there, but I'm not overstating it that it's gonna take all of us. That, to fight back against this anti-abortion movement that is pursuing scorched earth, we all have to link up hands and be that force against it. And so, however that way is in your life, you know, whatever is the thing you excel in. See if you can contribute that to supporting people in seeking abortion access.

Jennie: Well, Leila, it was so good to talk to you today. Thank you for coming on!

Leila: Thank you for having me, as always. And thank you for doing this podcast, as always.

Jennie: Okay, y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Leila. It was wonderful getting to talk to her about all of the things that have been happening so much. And with that, you know, just the usual. If you have questions, or comments, or a topic you would like us to cover always feel free to reach out to me. I’m at Jennie J-E-N-N-I-E@reposfightback.com, or you can reach out to us on social media @reprosfightback on Facebook and Twitter. Our @reprosfb on Instagram. Otherwise, I will see y'all in two weeks. Bye! For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit us at our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at @reprosfightback and on Instagram at @reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends, and please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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