Need an Abortion? Here are Some Resources and Things to Consider

Abortion is still legal in more than half of U.S. states, but many people may not be able to access the care they need in the states they live in. As criminalization of pregnancy and abortion becomes increasingly normalized, there are a number of legal considerations to keep in mind when looking for care remembering that those already marginalized are most at risk for criminalization. Rafa Kidvai, Director of the Legal Defense Fund at If/When/How and Liz Ling, Senior Helpline Counsel at If/When/How, talk to us about the new landscape of abortion access in the U.S. and how someone can go about safely and reliably accessing an abortion. 

If you’re pregnant and looking for abortion care, you can start with abortionfinder.org and Ineedana.com to find out what type of care is available closest to you. Regardless of where you are, be cognizant of your digital privacy—be aware of your search history, who you are sharing information with, and how often you are sharing information. Pregnancy and abortion criminalization may be bolstered by law enforcement obtaining copies of digital receipts.

Once you are in front of a medical professional, ask as many questions as you may have. Again, be aware of the people around you at this time and those that may be trustworthy with information regarding your abortion care. Be aware of your digital footprint and turn off your location services on your phone when you go to a clinic. After an abortion, it’s again important to remember who you are sharing information with. If you are contacted or detained by law enforcement, call the Repro Legal Helpline and do not speak without a lawyer present. You can also contact the helpline if you are helping someone access care and need advice or guidance.

If/When/How’s Repro Legal Helpline is a completely free and confidential resource for anyone who may have questions about reproductive justice—including what your rights are and what state laws are so that you feel fully informed in making a decision. You can receive information on what legal risks you may face based on if and how you choose to end a pregnancy, as well as options and legal barriers that you may specifically face in certain states if you are a young person. The Repro Legal Defense Fund raises bail for those who are criminalized for pregnancy, pregnancy outcomes and self-managed abortion. The defense fund, in addition, pays legal and attorney fees, engages a network of expert witnesses, and creates arguments against junk science that often underlies pregnancy and abortion criminalization.

Links from this episode

If/When/How on Twitter
If/When/How on Facebook
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Welcome to this week's episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, there's been some exciting things happening in the news recently around repro. And I'm just really excited to have things that are giving me energy and giving me hope happening. You know, as we always say, this is definitely a marathon and not a sprint, maybe an ultra-marathon, right? Like it's gonna be a very long, hard fight. So having these little things happen and they're not little, right, having these things happen to give us hope are really important. So last week president Biden issued another executive order around abortion care. Again, it doesn't go far enough to meet the emergency we're in, but it is definitely an important step forward. I'm sure we will talk about the executive order and what it means on another episode, but just know it, it takes some important steps, including trying to find a way to support patients, traveling out of state to access abortion care. It's gonna be really interesting to see how that is going to work out. So, like I said, important steps, but still not enough. I wanna focus on the two big stories that were giving me hope in the last, uh, two weeks. So first is Kansas-- y'all oh my goodness. Kansas had a ballot initiative on their primary ballot that would seek to remove protections for abortion from their state constitution. Opponents really did the best to confuse what the votes meant; they tried to make it seem like a yes vote was in support of reproductive choice when actually it was eliminating it, even with all of that and all of the money the Catholic church threw into it and all of the other money, I'm sure that went into it… there was huge voter turnout and it was resoundingly defeated. Y'all, in Kansas! That is so amazing to see that people are energized and ready to get out there and make sure that we are protecting the right to abortion. And y'all, it just gave me so much joy and watching the videos of the advocates, celebrating the victory, they worked so hard, so many advocates and people going and door knocking and doing the work on the ground. They did so much to make this happen. And it was, it gave me so much joy to see their joy. It was just really wonderful to see. So thank you all for your hard work. Thank you to all of the people in Kansas who got out to vote to ensure that they were protecting the right to abortion. It made a huge difference. And then the last one that just, it gave me so much hope y'all and I had so much fun watching the numbers go up and up and up, and that was Olivia Juliana. She is a 19 year old advocate out of Texas who Representative Matt Gaetz felt like was a good idea to insult and, y'all, don't mess with Gen Z. She turned it around and she raised, last I saw, over $2 million for abortion funds. That is so much money. She is just amazing. I, it was just giving me so much joy. And I think one of the things I saw that really like $2 million is a lot of money, but really put that in perspective for me, someone was tweeting and… I'm so sorry… I think I am going to blank on who that was… I think it was Liza Fuentes tweeted out about how much money the National Network of Abortion Funds distributed in 2020 and in 2020, they distributed $9.4 million. That means Olivia Juliana raised almost 20% of that. That is just utterly astonishing and is going to make such a huge difference for abortion funds. It is going to ensure that people are getting access to the care they need. And honestly, Olivia Juliana is just a full, like absolute, like not all heroes wear capes. Like she is just amazing. She took an attack on her personally and raised over $2 million to make sure that people have access to abortion funds and just, oh, so much hope. And it was so exciting to just continually watch that number grow. I gave money because how could you not? It was just amazing. And that was what I needed. That was the energy I needed and the hope I needed. And it was just so exciting to see. And I just, yeah, whew. It was good to have good news. It, it was really needed. Okay. So with that, let's turn to this week's episode. I am really excited for this week's episode. I know things are really confusing for a lot of people right now on figuring out how to try and access care. So I wanted to make sure that we talked to some people who could help us figure out things you need to think about along the way steps you need to take, to protect yourself, to make sure that you are getting the care you need and you are protected from any sort of criminalization. So I'm so excited to have with me on today's episode, Liz Ling with If/When/How and Rafa Kidvai with the Legal Defense Fund at If/When/How; we had a wonderful conversation and I am really excited for you to hear my conversation with Rafa and Liz.

Jennie: Hi Rafa. Hi Liz. Thank you so much for being here today. Do you wanna take a second before we get started and introduce yourselves and include your pronouns? Rafa, do you wanna go first?

Rafa: Hi. My name is Rafa Kidvai. My pronouns are they/them and I'm the Director of the Legal Defense Fund at If/When/How. It's really, really nice to be here. Thank you for having me.

Jennie: Thank you for being here.

Liz: And I'm Liz I use she/her pronouns and I’m Senior Helpline Council at If/When/How.

Jennie: Wonderful. I'm so excited to have both of you here today. I think right now there's probably a lot of confusion with people and not knowing what they need to do to access abortion care or how to make sure they're protecting themselves when accessing abortion care so that they don't run afoul of the new landscape. So maybe we'll kind of walk through the process of like how somebody needs to think about it each step of the way. Maybe let's start at the very beginning. So I just found out I'm pregnant and I am looking starting to look for abortion care. What are things I need to think about, like right away?

Liz: This one first thing is that abortion is actually still legal in more than half this country. And I think that's important for people to keep in mind, of course, and this is a big but-- the fact that people have legal rights doesn't necessarily mean that they can get the care that they need or want where they are. So start with, you know, where am I in the country? And I think two great resources that people can look to are abortionfinder.org and Ineedana.com, just to find out what type of care is available where I'm at.

Jennie: Yeah, those are great resources. Is there anything else I need to consider?

Rafa: I guess the only thing I was going to add is just something to consider along the way, regardless of timing, is just to protect your digital privacy as much as possible. Be really cognizant of the things that you're searching for. You know, we're well aware of people being criminalized and having their data illegally taken the way the cops are, you know, desire to do and do all the time, and then using things about searches for abortions or information about abortions against them. And so just be of how you're searching for things. Yeah. Liz, I don’t know if you want to add something to that?

Liz: Yeah. And I think along those lines, just think about who you're sharing information with. You know, we know that when it comes to risk, the greatest risk is really from other people, unfortunately. So really keep your information private, share information only when absolutely necessary, hopefully with people that you really, really trust. And I think the last thing I would say is that it is a very confusing time right now. It is very overwhelming and it's hard to know what your rights are and what the laws are quite frankly. And so if you do have questions about your rights or the laws in your state, please, please, please call us at the legal helpline. That is what we are here for. We are here to help try to answer your questions, hopefully, so people can, you know, make decisions about their reproductive health that are based in information and not in fear.

Jennie: Yeah. That is such a great resource. We'll make sure to include links to all the things and the phone number for the helpline in the show notes and link to it on social, because yeah, it's really great to have somewhere to turn to if you have questions to just make sure you're covered.

Rafa: I guess one of the other pieces that I would just add is, as you're thinking about yourself as a pregnant person, as you're thinking about the medical care that you're accessing, I think it's a sad truth that our medical providers are not necessarily always on our sides. Often there's a cultural idea, which is understandable, right? I remember receiving this information, which was, “if you don't tell me all the things that are happening with your body, I can't help you.” You know, lawyers say this all the time. “If you don't tell me all the details of, you know, if this case, then I won't be able to AR you know, argue for you successfully.” And I think what's unfortunate is that the people that you think you're giving that information to protect you can in fact, be the people that report you, even in the case of a miscarriage, we can talk about that a bit more later, but just, consider [your medical providers] and who you tell your information to, especially if it's not medically relevant.

Jennie: That's so important, cuz I do. I think a lot of people think of them as like your lawyer. Like you wanna tell them all the things so that you're covered. And in this instance, that's very much not the case. Okay. So I've gotten through that first hurdle. I am ready to access care and go to an appointment. What are like the next bucket of things I need to start thinking about?

Liz: Yeah. I mean, I think a lot of that depends on who you are, right? Like what's going on in your life. It's just a, it can be a really stressful time. It can be a really stressful situation. So really thinking through, you know, where are you going? Do you have access to transportation? Do you have someone, you know, who you trust and who may be able to accompany you or who might be able provide you support afterwards? Just thinking through, if you have any questions about the procedure or if you have any questions about what you might experience asking the providers, those questions as well.

Rafa: Yeah. And I think, I think a lot about survivors of intimate partner violence at this time, also in the course of their pregnancies; we know that people are much more likely to experience harm during this time, but also along the lines of what Liz said earlier in terms of the people around you. And, you know, I, I don't mean to be in any way, victim blame-y or in any way to suggest that like people need to make better decisions about the people they have around them, cause that's a nonsense and complicated thing to say to someone who's in an abusive situation. Right? And at the same time, I think this is another moment of cognizance that the people around you might be, your source of unsafety, might be the surveillance that we're all actually concerned about. And I think intimate partners who are, you know, abusive and their families or any sort of networks that are abusive in your, in your life could very well be the reasons that you're reported or you are put in harm’s way in terms of the legal system.

Jennie: I think one of the other things I feel like I've seen a lot is telling people, you know, if you're going to a clinic to turn off your location services on your phone when you go, just again, as Rafa said earlier, making sure that you are taking care of your digital footprint and privacy throughout this whole process. Okay. So are there things I need to think about after? I feel like we kind of already touched on this a little bit, but I think it is again such an important point to talk about like considerations after.

Liz: Yeah. I, I think, you know, we can't stress strongly enough, the importance of thinking about who you're talking to and who you're interacting with afterwards as well. Again, it's, it's really important to keep your information private as much as you can only share it with who you need. And again, I think this is another area where if you are able to access clinic-based care and you have questions about what to expect after, you know, you receive an abortion, ask those questions of your provider, have the information that you feel like you might need to make decisions for yourself afterwards.

Rafa: Yeah. And I think awareness of risk is a hard thing to tell people about because it can be a little bit daunting and scary, but it's important to remember who has been criminalized with our abortions, right? We know that people who've self-managed their abortions are more likely to be criminalized. And at the same time, we recognize that the people who are being criminalized are the same folks that are most cut off from care in the first place. And so this is, you know, Liz mentioned this, it depends on who you are, but the folks that are criminalized are always going to be the same folks across systems and situations because the state has an incentive to criminalize certain folks. And I mean specifically Black folks, brown folks, migrant folks, indigenous folks, survivors, actually, trans and gender nonconforming people, people, poor people, people that don't have access to safe housing and then any sort of anyone that the medical system or the legal system deems as suspicious. And that's a really shitty thing to learn about yourself if you happen to fall into any of those categories. Cause it's not always about your actions, right? Or it's not necessarily what you did or where you did it or how much care you took. It's just about the fundamentals of who you are and how you navigate the world, which is obviously deeply racist and misogynist and classist and all those things.

Jennie: Yeah. And especially if you've fallen multiple of those intersections, right? Like much more likely to face criminalization or be questioned around your decisions. You know, that's definitely something we've seen with criminalization prior to the Dobbs decision, right? Where you see pregnancy outcomes and things be challenged. It's really like who is being looked at harder than the other people. It's not about what happened. It's definitely about the person and who the doctor or nurse is. Cause as you said, it's often like at the hospital or, or the provider who takes a closer look and raises questions… again, just really troubling to have to think about that. Or have to think that the doctors you're seeing might not be on your side for all the things when you really trust that that is the case.

Rafa: Totally. I mean, I think in general, pregnant people are fall on their own in a category of risk in terms of criminalization. I don't think pregnant people in this country really have the benefit of being seen as deserving of care. They themselves are seen as suspicious, constantly questioned about the worthiness of their parenting and how they're handling their pregnancy, you know, tested without their consent constantly. There's so many ways in which pregnant people, I think aren't treated with the love and care that they deserve in a fundamentally dangerous moment in their life, medically dangerous. Right? And so I think that's the other part is like, there's a kind of fear that I hear people talk about. “Like I'm scared to have a miscarriage in a way,” or “I'm scared to have a stillbirth,” which is such a devastating thing to have to think about as opposed to being able to focus on the grief and the trauma of the experience in the first place.

Jennie: Right, there’s the like scared it will happen because it's a tragic thing to happen, but like then have to have this other external worry on top of it or to make the experience that much worse. It just breaks my heart. Okay. So now we've gotten to the, the like, okay, all these possible ways that you could run afoul of the criminal justice system. So, okay. Now, now I'm in that place with, again being, I'm a cis, straight white woman who probably won't be looked at in the same way to be at that risk. Like definitely thinking through the impacts of like who is gonna be impacted is a really, again, an important point to push, but now I need help. What are my next steps?

Liz: Yeah. I think something to also keep in mind is, and I think it's important for listeners to, to know this, which is that it's not that people are running afoul of the criminal legal system, right? It's that the laws are being misapplied and misused to target and harm very specific people. And this is how criminalization has worked historically in this country. And it continues to work this way every single day. So I want people to know that if something happens, if they are contacted by law enforcement, that is not because they have done something to deserve that; there are state actors, there are people in power who are using discretion to make these decisions. That being said, I think, you know, something we would tell any person who contacts our helpline, which is if you are being contacted by law enforcement, in any setting, um, don't talk to the police without a lawyer being present, right? Assert your right to have a lawyer. Then people can definitely call our helpline again immediately when they're experiencing a legal emergency like that.

Rafa: Totally.

Jennie: And that's really great to know.

Rafa: Yeah. And I guess that's a little bit, you know, know your rights stuff is always hard because I feel like I could have done a thousand know your rights trainings and then a cop comes to my door and knocks on the door and says, “let me in” and I forget to ask about a warrant and I'm like, “come on in, let me make you some tea. Let me talk about really personal details of my life.” Cuz I'm so anxious in this moment. I just wanna overshare like… all of those dynamics play out in criminalization. And so I think sometimes it can be really hard, but I almost, you know, want like people to, you know, that like that scene in the beginning of the Simpsons where Bart Simpson writes the same thing over and over again? Like I kind of wanna do that scene in my own head just to like make myself fully imbibe by the value of not speaking to the police, not answering their questions and especially in the sort of Miranda-oblation world where you won't even be reminded potentially of that right. I think it's something we really just have to know within ourselves. And that like practicing remaining silent is some serious work, especially under really, really extreme scrutiny. And so I think, you know, I used to say this all the time as a public defender where someone would say “this police officer was really nice” or they told me, which is like almost a TV line now. Right? “Like I'll, I'll talk to the DA who's my personal buddy. And they'll give you a good deal.” Like all of those things are, are lies that the police are allowed to tell you they're, you know, legally allowed to lie to you. And so there's a way in which I think you just have to have the sense of self and this understanding that the criminal punishment system and all of its arms are not here to help you, no matter how much they tell you. You know, and often again, you hear the sort of see the idea of the good cop and bad cop, but how it plays out in practice maybe feels less clear and you have someone who's saying, “I feel sympathetic to you.” Or like, “I imagine this is hugely traumatizing for you.” And the comfort of having someone affirm that in a moment of crisis can be really, really, you know, alluring to someone to wanna say something. So it's shitty to have to tell people this again, but it's like, I think the most protective thing is to just not trust any of the arms of law enforcement, they're not there to help you. They're not there to make your life any easier.

Jennie: Great. I, again, I, I really feel the, like I need to get that in my head and like, not just fall back on my, like-- I'm from the Midwest. So like my, my go-to is like, very nice. “How can I help you? And what can I do?” And yeah, Nope. Need to like really get that through of like, not just trying to be helpful. So I feel like this is a really good time to maybe talk a little bit more about If/When/How and the helpline, and then we could talk about the Repro Legal Defense Fund. So people could have a better understanding of like the full range of help they can get from both of them.

Liz: Sure. Yeah. The helpline is a completely free and confidential legal resource for literally anyone in all 50 states who have questions about reproductive justice. And I'm being very broad, when I say reproductive justice. Um, because we want people to know what the laws are, what their rights are. So again, they can make the decisions that they want to make and they need to make that are best for them. So that includes answering questions, you know, especially now after Dobbs about what do the bans in my state actually mean for me as person, who's trying to make a decision? That also means talking to people about any legal risks that they might face depending on how they're choosing to end a pregnancy. So that could be, you know, accessing clinic-based care, that also be choosing to self-manage an abortion because we know that self-managed abortion may be the best choice for someone, for any number of reasons. And you know, that's great, but that doesn't mean it doesn’t come with legal risks. So we can answer those questions that are really specific to someone's situation. We also answer questions from young people who are, who wanna know what their rights are about accessing abortion care. So we know that in many states, young people are often forgotten when it comes to abortion care. And there are laws, unfortunately, called forced parental involvement laws that really remove bodily autonomy from that young person. And we can talk to people about what those laws say, what they might mean for them in their situation, as well as, you know, how they might access something called a judicial bypass hearing. And we can talk about what their rights are and what options might be available to them.

Rafa: I love helpline so much, we work together.

Liz: I do too!

Jennie: I's just a great resource.

Rafa: Oh my God, absolutely. I remember the first time I heard about the helpline and just feeling like the sigh of relief that someone, someone had this handled is such a, yeah, such a comfort in, in this time, especially. So in terms of the RLDF, I wanted to go back a little bit before I talk about the actual services that the Repro Legal Defense Fund provides to talk about what criminalization looks like in our imagination. So one, we think about the, the process of criminalization is not just the criminal punishment system, so not just arrest, prosecution and criminal court, what leads to bail, incarceration, cetera, all of that is obviously extremely cruel and violent. And it's also not the only venue that the state uses to criminalize people in. So Liz just mentioned sort of family court, and I think that's another… much like cops, ACS or CPS workers. You know, you have to think of those folks often disguised or cosplaying as social workers, maybe actually having those degrees and still not necessarily being there to help you and actually being there to report you so through that system. And then the immigration slash deportation system. So, you know, there's a long history of detention centers and reproductive injustice on that front and forced sterilizations. And then also just the fact that these systems work in parallel. So if you are someone who's not a U.S. citizen and you're facing criminal charges, there will be immigration consequences for you potentially. And so that's the thing to consider and RLDF knows this, understands this. And so part of our job is really to support people financially, to bridge the gap between having a good defense and not by virtue of resources, but not just in the criminal realm. Also the immigration and family realms And so the defense fund works in two sort of categories. And we think of one as bail, which is our most expansive category. So if someone's being criminalized for their pregnancy, their pregnancy outcome, they should reach out to us and apply for support. And then if someone is being criminalized specifically for allegations of having self-managed their abortions, which, you know, there's like this, this idea, I think within the legal system, in many states, even where it's not explicitly criminalized, that there's something more criminal, because it's more wrong to self your abortion. This idea that you're taking your reproductive, autonomy, your body into your own hands, I think terrifies the state quite a bit. And so there's this false idea. And this misapplication of the law that Liz says where people are targeted specifically for allegations of having self-managed. And then it's kind, you know, prosecutors throw anything at people. So not only will they argue on the one hand that you allegedly self-managed, they're very comfortable simultaneously arguing that there was a live birth for instance, and you did something to, you know, cause that, cause that loss. And so I think there's a way in which we really like to think about all the different places that we can show up for somebody at the defense fund, which involves yes, paying their bail, but also paying attorney's fees, getting expert witnesses in the room, expert witnesses that If/When/How has relationships with and has worked with before, so that they can really argue against some of the junk science that prosecutors are so comfortable using so that they can allege all these multiple opposing things. And then I guess right now we're in a place where I think most likely people who are helpers are, are risk. And I think the defense fund also realize that they needed to sort of expand to that realm. And so our bail support includes helpers for folks who are trying to access abortion care. And then there's like our legal defense fund, which is bigger than just bail and anyone who sort of in the SMA realm can reach out to us for support. So if you're the person who's directly being accused, if you're a helper, if you're an activist, absolutely reach out to us and will try to make sure that you have the resources you need to fight back against the sort of huge arm of this, this violence of the state, which is obviously no small feat. And then sometimes, you know, we realize as former defense attorneys that people need support, that's not just you can't just source sort of money at the problem that there's bigger issues that people have. Then maybe the concern is about a specific misdemeanor charge or a criminal charge. Maybe they're concerned they're gonna be separated from their families. Maybe they're concerned that their housing is insecure at the moment. Maybe they don't have a cell phone and that the court is saying you're a flight risk because you don't have a cell phone. And so we try to support them in all those fronts as well. I hate that we exist in some ways. And I also think we're incredible. And so I really hope that if people need our support, they know that they should reach out to us. And, you know, even if they're uncertain that this is the exact support that they need, it's, it's better to just reach out and be cautious. And I would say the same with the helpline-- overly cautious is your friend. I think that's all I have to say about the RLDF.

Liz: I just wanna say the RLDF is amazing.

Jennie: Well, I was just gonna say like, first of all, I knew both of y'all were amazing and your organizations were amazing, but like hearing you talk about like the full range of things that the RLDF and If/When/How do. I'm even more impressed than I was already. Like just what an amazing resource for people who need it. Both of them.

Liz: I want to add one thing real quick that Rafa reminded me of, which is that the RLDF is also available for people who are helping others access care or who are helping others considering a self-managed abortion, um, people can absolutely call us at the helpline and ask about what legal risk they may be facing if they're choosing to help someone in their life with their choices.

Jennie: Nice flag. Thank you. Okay. So now that we know about these like amazing organizations and all the things we need to keep in mind, I always like to wrap up episodes with action, cause there's so much going on and I feel like people want to know what they can do to help. So what action can our audience take to help in any of these issues?

Rafa: I'm happy to go first because I'm gonna ask people to give money, which is…

Liz: I was gonna ask people to give you guys money ,too!

Rafa: It's so unsatisfying, I think, both to ask for money for an organization. And then to say that that's the way that you wanna show up. And also I think that it's really fundamentally the smartest way to show up for people right now.

Jennie: And rage donating feels so good. Y'all, like when I get mad and see things, I go and give to these organizations and I feel so much better because I know they all need the resources right now.

Rafa: And I think we're really good at giving those resources away. I think that's the part that I feel really good about saying; you know, my mother, when I became a public defender said, “of course you became a free lawyer cuz you would be terrible at asking people for money.” And I feel like that is probably still true, but in this particular realm, I feel fine asking for it because one, we don't need to recreate networks. I think there is a sort of misogyny about how we view the repro movement-- we assume, or the world assumes that the movement is unprepared. And I think the opposite is true. I think in the face of extreme hardship, the movement is incredibly prepared, especially around practical support. The repro movement is really smart about how it gives its money away. And so, you know, if you're out there wondering is my money gonna go to go to something? Yes. Your money, if you give it to the RLDF at least, goes to someone's bail, goes to that cell phone bill I just talked about. It's very tangible, practical support for someone. And I cannot say enough that criminalization is intentionally expensive. There is, it is not an accident that bail is high. It is not an accident that attorneys will charge you an arm and a leg. It's not an accident that poor folks are charged disproportionately for crimes. And then the cost of it is sort of disproportionate as a result as well. All of these are intentional moves. And so we need a concerted, intentional resourced effort to fight back. That's my pitch for what you should do.

Liz: I fully support Rafa's pitch—but I also want to emphasize something Rafa said about not recreating networks and not recreating work because I think it’s important for people to understand that attacks on abortion rights on reproductive rights, on reproductive health, reproductive justice, none of that is new… that has been going on for decades, right? So there is a movement, there are systems in place, there are networks in place. And so I would say, if you are wondering how you can help, start with your community, right? Find out who's been doing this work, um, and try to learn from them what the work looks like and what the need might be before you try to jump in and say, “well, I think this needs to happen” and try to create something. I think that is so important to listen to the people who have been doing this work for years now.

Jennie: Yeah. It's always disconcerting when I see people talking about whatever the new camping or whatever, setting up the different networks, I'm like, no, but like abortion funds exist and like they're doing great work or y'all exist and are doing great work. Yeah. It's just really important to get connected with the resources that already exist and are doing, doing the work and have the connections in place.

Rafa: And I think the other thing to remember is that sometimes movements become fads. And I really want us to think about the fact that this is going to be something that has been happening like Liz said, and therefore has prepared us to be responsive in a particular way. And like, where are folks gonna be in six months? Where are folks gonna be in three years? Where are folks gonna be in five years? How are you building a repro analysis into your life? How are you shifting the culture of how we treat pregnant people in your life? And I think some of those things are the big things that you can do on the smaller scale that maybe aren't about being visible. They aren't about, you know, participating in an organization. But they're just about how we talk each other, how we look at people. I remember when I first came to New York city, one of my friends who later on became somebody that worked in family court to defend parents who were accused of neglect and abuse and a bunch of other stuff that is about the same stuff we just talked about. But looking at someone who was pregnant and smoking and feeling really nervous about it like many, many years ago. And of course one can see how, when you shift your mind and you understand the systems that play and you think about trauma in a bigger sense, or you think about, you know, resources in a bigger sense, it shifts how you live in the world. And so I think there's a way in which like, think about your own lens, think about how you view pregnant people. Are you, are you expecting them to like, you know… I, I remember being pregnant and being like, “oh my God, I hope there's never any black ice because I'm so terrified of something were to happen to me. Me, no, one's gonna think about how scary that would be for me.” No one would think about how terrified I would be about this wanted pregnancy, but instead they would look at me with the judgment of “how are you as a pregnant person gonna walk around carelessly, not noticing black ice, you know?” And I think there's something about that lens that we view people that I think if you don't wanna donate at least do the work of like reading and resourcing yourself and seeing how this movement needs to be a part of your life for the long haul. Because you know, the right has been working on this for so long, in such a coordinated fashion and their asks are bold and violent and they're very comfortable doing that. And I would love us to be really, really bold in our commitment to people around their bodily autonomy sort of, you know, unabashedly and unapologetically.

Jennie: Yes. See, this is our, our opportunity to build something much better than what we had before. Well, Rafa, Liz, thank you so much for being here. I had so much fun talking to you today. Thank you for coming up.

Rafa: Thank you for having us. You're such a great host and such a joy to spend time with.

Liz: Yes. Thank you so much. I'm so excited to dive into the rest of your podcast too.

Jennie: Okay. Y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Rafa and Liz. It was so great to talk to them about all of these issues and definitely make sure to get out there and support If/ When/How for their great work RLDF for their great work, both organizations are really needed now more than ever. And I'm sure they could definitely use your support.

Jennie: Thanks for listening everyone. And we'll see you on our next episode of RePROS Fight Back. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at RePROS Fight Back, or on Instagram at reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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