Bonus Pod: A Look at the Post-Roe Chaos

After the overturning of Roe v. Wade, the federal right to abortion was eliminated and sent back to individual states. The United States is now seeing a state-by-state patchwork of laws, court challenges, and disparate barriers to abortion access. Garnet Henderson, independent journalist and host and producer of ACCESS: A Podcast About Abortion, sits down to talk with us about the on-the-ground chaos after the Supreme Court’s overturning of Roe v. Wade and myths around adoption as an alternative for abortion.

Clinic staff and abortion providers have been working overtime to try and see as many patients as possible before the eventual overturning of Roe, with some clinics even opening their doors earlier in the day. Texas’s robust network, working to help many people get funds to cover their procedure and transportation out of state, was shut down on the day of the decision. At a clinic in Alabama, 100 patients who had already jumped through the state’s unnecessary barriers and were pre-approved to receive care that day had to be turned away as soon as the Supreme Court ruling was released. Trigger bans and pre-Roe bans are being passed and challenged around the country, contributing to further, fractured confusion and differing levels of accessibility. 

A popular anti-abortion talking point is to say that adoption is a suitable alternative to abortion. This is fundamentally untrue; first and foremost, not very many people at all choose to place a child up for adoption after birth, even when the pregnancy was not planned. In general, pregnancy is incredibly difficult and dangerous, particularly for Black people and other people of color. Adoption is an alternative to parenting, not to pregnancy—adoption doesn’t account for the outcome of someone who simply doesn’t want to be pregnant not being pregnant. Adoption can also be a very emotional complex and painful experience for the birth parent and the child, meaning that adoption isn’t an easy or given alternative to a wanted abortion.

Links from this episode

ACCESS: A Podcast About Abortion
ACCESS on Twitter
ACCESS on Instagram
Garnet on Twitter
What This Later-Abortion Story Tells Us About a Post-Roe Future
INeedAnA.com
Abortion Fund Donation Finder
Repro Legal Helpline

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more – giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Hi rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y’all, it has been, uh, a little while since the SCOTUS decision. We've all had a chance to sit and, um, try to work through all of our feelings around it. It, it took me a while before I finally had a day where I woke up and was like, okay, I feel ready to face this day and didn't have that numb or, or just…sadness and anger over me. So, take your time, feel your feelings. You know, I, I kept working and kept fighting through all of it, but, but it really took me a while to reach that, that point where I, I felt like I was in a better place. I don't know that I would say good yet…but definitely in a better place. You know, I took that first weekend after Dobbs came out overturning Roe to really try to…I had some things I had to do, but also to try and disconnect a little bit and really focus on self-care so that I'd be ready for the week ahead. I kept it fairly low-key, you know, did some work and scheduling some things I needed to do, but also just took some quiet downtime. I, I made cinnamon buns, which were delightful. I decided that the recipe that I had been using didn't have enough frosting when I made it the first time. So, I decided to double the amount of frosting, which was definitely too much. But you know what? Is there too much frosting? Can you have too much cream cheese frosting on Cinnabons? I don't know. They were delightful, and they were really what I needed to face that next week to have them for breakfast every week. I just wanted to touch on a couple things before we get to the bonus interview. Some things that have been…you've been seeing a lot of online that I just wanted to quickly address. And, and I think, you know, this audience probably knows most of it, but it's helpful to, to restate it, and so, just address a couple of the things. And one is to make sure that we're using trans-inclusive language, right? Trans and non-binary people access abortion care. It is really important that we do not exclude them from this conversation. They are already being attacked on so many fronts. It's really, really, really important that we are being inclusive. And honestly, it doesn't cost us anything to be inclusive, to talk about pregnant people or people needing abortion care or abortion patients. It costs us nothing, and it means so much to be inclusive. So just, you know, try to watch your language. It takes time to learn, and you'll mess up, and you won't be perfect, and that's okay. But just, you know, try to be inclusive. Another thing that you still see a lot of is “hanger imagery.” And, you know, I understand that it comes from people's…from pre-Roe times and, and what criminalized abortion looked like. That is not the world we are living in now. There are medication abortion pills. There are safe alternatives. We don't want to use coat hanger imagery because it might scare people away from accessing safe abortion, and, and that it's really important to point out that even though abortion in places is, is criminalized, self-managed abortion using medication abortion is safe. And there are resources out there to find it Reproaction has information on it. The World Health Organization has information on it. We Testify, I have seen with information on it. So, you know, make sure that people know that there are safe alternatives. I think it's also really important…we already do this a lot, but you know, make sure that we're elevating the work of abortion funds. You see a lot of people trying to duplicate work that is already being done by abortion funds, and so, it's just really important that, you know, letting people know that that's already happening and that abortion funds are already doing a lot of this work. Yeah, I think those are the main ones. And then just, you know, making sure that we're not stigmatizing abortion, you know, not giving impressions that there are good abortions or bad abortions, or this is an okay reason to have an abortion, or talking around abortion, right? We don't need to be talking about pro-choice or things like that. It's really important. Abortion isn't shameful. We should not be doing the work of stigmatizing it. So, you know, please say the word and talk about abortion as you are talking about why this is so important. Yeah. I think those are all the things I wanted to hit on. I, I just…those are things I've been seeing a lot online, and especially the stuff around not being trans inclusive, there's just been a lot of nonsense around that online. And I just…it's so important, y'all to just be inclusive. Trans and non-binary people need abortions, and we do not need them to feel like they are not welcome in this space. They are. They are loved. They're supported. We need to make sure that everybody is able to access the abortion care they need, and that includes trans and non-binary people. So, by talking about this as a women's issue, we are excluding them. And yes, this predominantly will impact cisgender women that are not the only people impacted, so we need to make sure that we are including everybody who will feel the impacts of the loss of abortion rights. And with that, let's turn to this week's bonus interview. I am so excited that we are finally made this happen. We have Garnet Henderson. She is an independent journalist, but she also hosts the ACCESS podcast. Y'all, it's a really wonderful podcast. She does a great job producing it. She does it all on her own, beginning to end, and it is so wonderfully done and talks about so many important abortion-related issues. It is definitely worth your time if you are not already part of her audience to become part of her audience. So please check out Garnet’s podcast, ACCESS podcast. Um, you can get it wherever you listen to this one or wherever you are getting this one. I'll make sure to include links in the shownotes. For sure check it out. And with that, let's turn into my interview with Garnet. Hi Garnet! Thank you so much for being here today!

Garnet: Hi, thank you so much for having me! I'm excited to be here.

Jennie: I am so excited to have you on the podcast. Do you maybe wanna take a second and do a quick introduction of yourself, and include your pronouns?

Garnet: Sure. My name is Garnet Henderson. I use she/her pronouns. I am an independent journalist and the host and producer of ACCESS, a podcast about abortion.

Jennie: And I guess before we dig into anything, everybody should check out Garget’s podcast. It's really amazing. But do you maybe wanna take a second and tell people about it? Cuz it's obviously right in our audience's wheelhouse.

Garnet: Yeah, sure. So, I created ACCESS because, this will probably not be surprising to anybody who's listening to this show, but I was really finding that most people knew almost nothing about abortion, including, and perhaps especially people who considered themselves liberal or progressive and generally well informed. So, you know, I, as a journalist was always interested in reproductive health and other feminist issues, but over the years I made abortion access more and more my beat. And so, I would talk about abortion everywhere I went, at parties, on dates. And I really found that people would be…just so surprised when I told them things that I considered to be really basic facts about abortion care or about abortion law and policy, right? And I also found that editors often knew very little about abortion, and so, it was really hard to convince them that they should take a story that I was pitching them about abortion. And because I do also write about other things, I do have that comparison. So, it's true that as a freelancer, I'm always trying to convince an editor that they should take my story, that this is a story they want to publish. And I just was finding that with abortion, it was much, much harder, or that they were always wanting it to be a really extreme or dire or sad story. Like, I often was hearing when I pitched things basically like, “well, this isn't bad enough yet. Let us know if things get worse.” And so, I wanted to create ACCESS to really help people understand some of those things that they don't know about abortion, because I do think that so much anti-abortion sentiment and policy is just driven by stigma. So, I wanted to break things down in a really accessible way, one topic at a time. And I also just wanted to be able to tell the stories that I wanted to tell and that editors weren't very interested in.

Jennie: Yeah. I mean…oh man. I totally feel that. Our podcast had…kind of similar, but I think the biggest thing that really…where I felt that story was having conversations – I'm originally from Wisconsin, I would go back home and would be talking to people and they didn't realize how much abortion was being regulated or various repro things were being regulated, like, in Wisconsin because it wasn't getting the coverage that a lot of other states were getting. And we're talking, I guess now, like, 11 years ago, because this is when we, we started the 50-state report card that the Population Institute does every year…And we've been doing it for a decade now. And like, it was really trying to fill some of that gap of, like, this is happening everywhere. You need to know what the policy is in your state, because you may think your state is good, but it probably still has some bad policies, whether it's sex-ed or covering abortion or so many other things that we wanted to make sure that people were able to, to learn about that. And, you know, obviously then that leads to doing rePROs, where really we started with the Trump administration, cuz there were so many things happening and people were having a hard time keeping up, and we wanted to make sure to have a space to, like, really dig deep and talk about all of the issues and why people needed to care or just understand, like, what it meant.

Garnet: Mm-hmm yeah. I grew up in Wyoming.

Jennie: Oh.

Garnet: And for most of my life, lawmakers in Wyoming really weren't interested in trying to limit abortion access, but abortion access in the state was really bad. So, I'm from Jackson Hole, which for my whole life had, well, my whole childhood had Wyoming's only abortion provider, who was just our local urgent care doctor too. So, like, he cut a piece of glass outta my foot once at his evil abortion mill, you know?

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. I do.

Garnet: Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. And so, then I moved to New York for college, and I've lived here ever since, and, you know, I think…in Wyoming, people obviously knew that it was hard to get an abortion there, right? And then I moved to New York, and I realized that, you know, a lot of people I think living in New York, and like you said, states that people think like, “oh, this state must be good. Like, this is a quote unquote blue state.” But actually, you know, there are still lots of barriers and challenges to abortion access that people aren't aware of until they themselves or someone close to them needs an abortion. And so, that was definitely part of my inspiration for creating ACCESS as well.

Jennie: So, now that we've had a little while to, like, sit and marinate in the awfulness of what happened last Friday, maybe let's talk a little bit about what happened that day, because I know you had an opportunity to talk to people at clinics and see what was happening on the ground. Because I think those stories are so important to tell for so many reasons.

Garnet: Yeah. I mean, it was just really heartbreaking, especially because everyone knew that the decision was coming and really hoped it wasn't coming for another week. But then I think a lot of us kind of knew that it was gonna be that day, somehow. Like, all of a sudden. I remember I barely slept that night, and I woke up like, “what is wrong with me?” And I was like, “I think today is the day.” And it was. And so, talking to people at clinics around the country, in banned states, they were just trying so hard to fit in as many people as they could before any decision came down. I talked to Dr. Bhavik Kumar at Planned Parenthood Gulf Coast, who has been a guest on my show, and he was telling me that there, they had moved up their start time with patients to 7:00 AM in the hopes every day of getting in as many patients as they could before any decision would come down, which in Texas they're on Central Time, so decisions start coming out at 9:00 AM Central Time. And so, you know, they were just trying to pack patients into those early morning hours. But then that meant on the day of the decision, they had some patients who had been able to get their abortions and others that they had to send home pregnant, who were still there in the waiting room. And now, of course, hopefully some of those people maybe are getting in, now that there's a temporary restraining order blocking the Texas pre-Roe ban. But, you know, given that access there was already so limited with the six-week ban, which is still in effect, I have a feeling that a lot of people who were delayed even a couple of days might have to travel out of state anyway, which is really difficult, especially because a lot of abortion funds also suspended their operations while they were kind of seeking clarity around that pre-Roe ban in Texas to figure out exactly what was and wasn't legal and what was and wasn't safe to do. So, you know, there's been a really robust network in Texas working to get people out of state, if needed, working to get people, the funds that they need to do that. And a lot of that was, if not fully, at least partly shut down, starting on the day of the decision, which is really, really difficult and just sad, especially because I know that those clinic workers and organizers in Texas have really been pouring so much work and truly heart and soul into helping abortion seekers in the extremely restrictive context there, and it's so hard to see them have to stop that work in any way. I also spoke to Robin Marty, who I'm sure everyone who listens to this show knows who Robin is, um, at West Alabama Women's Center, and she told me that they had almost a hundred patients booked for this week. So, that's people who had already made it through their first appointment because Alabama had a 48-hour mandatory delay. So, that was almost a hundred people who had already made it through their first appointment, where they get an ultrasound and the State-directed counseling and were just waiting to come back in to either get pills or have an in-clinic abortion. So, I mean, that's also devastating in a state where it's already…where it was already so hard to get an abortion and to have to jump through so many hoops to have made it through almost all of them and to be cut off at the last second. Yeah. And then I spoke with Mia Raven, who is a clinic employee, and also an escort, and the founder of the POWER House, which is a reproductive justice organization in Montgomery, Alabama. So, she works and volunteers at Reproductive Health Services, which is another Alabama clinic, and Friday is not a clinic day for them, so the clinic was closed. But she told me that they had, where they'd normally have about 20 people on Monday and Tuesday coming in for their initial appointments, they had upwards of 40 scheduled for Monday and 30 some for Tuesday, and all those people's appointments had to be canceled. And she said that, you know, even though it wasn't a clinic day and the clinic wasn't open, protestors started showing up as soon as the decision came down, not surprisingly. So, she was there when I spoke with her, sitting in her car, outside the clinic, kind of keeping an eye on everything. And she told me that in the time she'd been sitting there, five former patients of the clinic came up just cuz they didn't know where else to go other than the place that had helped them. And so, they wanted to come and find out what was going on, what they could do, and also just tell the clinic staff that they were sorry, which I thought was really heartbreaking.

Jennie: I…there's just so many layers of heartbreak in all of this. Like…thinking of all of the patients or people who need abortions, who are blocked from getting one, may not be able to travel, had already gotten so far through the process. Like, that's devastating. But also thinking of the clinic staff, like, I know how, you know, like you, as soon as they added the Friday decision day, like I just had this sinking suspicion in my stomach that that's what was gonna happen. Yet somehow woke up Friday morning being like, “no, we're gonna get this weekend. We're gonna get this weekend, where people are still gonna be able to access care,” which obviously was not true. And the way it hit me, like, I knew what was coming, right? But it still hit so much harder. But then, to think of, like, being in a clinic and, like, having to not only be trying to process my feelings and, like, how it's impacting me, but also trying to help patients and, like, talking to people who had appointments and, like, trying to talk them through their options. Like, oh man. Like clinic workers, like, I just feel for them to have to go through all of that and process what happened all at the same time, like, it's just, it's so much.

Garnet: Yeah. It's really, really traumatic. And, you know, at a lot of clinics, their busiest day, and in some cases, their only procedure day is Saturday. And so, a lot of clinics got cut off right before what would've been their busiest day of the whole week, where they would've helped the most patients. And yeah. I mean, I spoke with several providers who said, like, “we had to turn the phones off for a while and just put on the answering service because there were so many calls and we wanted to be able to answer all of them, but we didn't really have information for people until we figured out exactly what the ruling was gonna mean for us.” Because we're also in a really confusing situation now where all these different state laws are coming into effect. There are pre-Roe bands that are so old, and there's a lot of uncertainty about how attorney generals in various states might try to enforce those. There are federal judges rapidly lifting injunctions against more recent abortion bans and allowing them to be enforced. But, you know, we're now in this really confusing state-by-state, kind of, patchwork of laws. In some states, the bans are being challenged in state court and hopefully that will be successful in at least some places. It has been temporarily successful in a few states for the moment. But that's another thing that's just really hard on clinic workers is, when the situation is that confusing and is changing that rapidly, it’s really hard to give people good information. It's hard to be able to say anything to them other than like, “keep an eye on the new, or make sure you call us right before you come in,” you know, or something like that. Because there's no way you can tell people today what the situation is gonna be in tomorrow or three days, you know, at the time of their appointment.

Jennie: Yeah. I think that's something that is becoming…really crystal clear. Like, we talked about the lack of information, like, why you started the podcast, why we had been doing some of the things we were doing and like now the need for accurate, up to the moment information is more important than ever. There's just so much confusion everywhere, right? Like, even in states where it's still legal, there isn't a trigger ban, like people are hearing the news that Roe is overturned and assume that means they can't get an abortion, or people not hearing the news in states where it is illegal. Like, there's just so much confusion and the need for accurate information is just so important. I mean, you see so much flying around, especially, like, on Twitter where people are, everybody's an expert, right? And you really have to make sure you're getting information from trusted sources.

Garnet: Yeah, absolutely. And you know, the, the trigger bands, in particular, are very confusing…Because some of them require no further action. They go into effect automatically. Others require some kind of executive action from the governor or the state attorney general. And so, you know, it's just, it's just a mess, which of course is…whenever there's confusion and there's a mess that also creates an opportunity for anti-abortion groups to swoop in and lure abortion seekers in and confuse and delay them further. So, that's something I've been thinking about a lot. To…given that crisis pregnancy centers in particular already have such a long track record of impersonating real abortion clinics, you know, moving in next door, across the street, or even into the old space of a closed clinic or a clinic that has moved, and so, I've been thinking about that a lot because I think a lot of anti-abortion groups are ready to, kind of, swoop in and fill in that information vacuum, you know, and try and trick people, basically, into not doing what they need to do in order to get out of the state, if that's what's required where they live and have an abortion.

Jennie: I, yeah. I mean so much…and there are so many more of them than there are abortion clinics, right? There are…Like, every time I see the number of, like, crisis pregnancy centers, it is utterly shocking to me how many there are. Yeah. And just getting that wrong information can be so harmful, right? Like, if they, if there's like a, a week ban in your state, and they tell you you're past it, but you're not, and then, so, you don't go and seek further care. There's just so many things, and, you know, I think this also came up in…I was just re-listening to one of the episodes of your podcast, where you were talking about the woman who needed a later-term abortion and was not being counseled on all of her options right away. And just thinking of how that's gonna really…I mean, it already happens, but like how much more is that gonna happen now?

Garnet: Yeah. I mean, that's one of the reasons why it was so important to me to tell that story because, you know, I try to be…there's a stereotype, or a misconception is a better word, I guess, that the only reason that people have abortions later in pregnancy, and particularly in the third trimester, is because of some kind of a fatal fetal diagnosis or pregnancy complication. And of course, it is true that that is a major reason that people have abortions, particularly in the third trimester. But of course, most people who have abortions later in pregnancy are people who wanted an abortion earlier and were not able to access one for all kinds of reasons. Or, you know, didn't discover that they were pregnant until the second trimester or into the third, which is far more common than people realize. So, I always try to be careful in how I tell those kinds of stories about people who are having abortions for fetal indications, because I never wanna reinforce that idea that that is like the good reason to have an abortion at that point in pregnancy. But I think what was really important to me in telling that story of Kristyn Smith, who was my really brave guest who came on to tell her story is that she actually experienced a combination of those things. So yes, she did receive a fatal fetal diagnosis, but she received it at 20 weeks. At which point, she still could have had an abortion, theoretically, legally in West Virginia, although I don't know that there are any providers that actually would've done it, right? But it was legal. So, according to the American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists, when a patient is receiving a diagnosis in their pregnancy that's potentially lethal, they're supposed to be counseled on all their options, and that includes abortion. But Kristyn’s doctors in West Virginia never even spoke about abortion with her at all. They immediately referred her to a team of specialists in Cincinnati, which is a three-and-a-half-hour drive from her home to try and have a fetal surgery. And when that didn't work, those doctors did speak with her about abortion, but at that point, they couldn't offer her an abortion because Ohio has a 22-week ban…or had…now it has a six-week ban. At the time it had a 22-week ban. And so, they basically just sent her home to West Virginia to wait to have a stillbirth, which I think is horrible. Yeah. And so, she actually had found out through a midwife at her obstetrician's office about DuPont Clinic in D.C., and she had an appointment there, but she ended up in the hospital in West Virginia with some bleeding before she was able to get there. And they really wanted to treat her as though she were in preterm labor and was potentially going to give birth to a healthy baby, which was just not possible in her situation. So, it's a really disturbing story, and she did end up ultimately getting an abortion. She had to drive six hours to D.C., while still bleeding, while she really should have been in a hospital in order to get the abortion that she needed. And so, it was important to me to tell that story, because I think that unfortunately, there are about to be a lot more people like Kristyn, who don't get the counseling about abortion that they need and deserve, and who are forced to wait until they're experiencing really difficult and dangerous complications to be able to get an abortion. And I also think it shows that abortion stigma harms and delays those people, even who have “good reasons” for getting an abortion. Like, there are lots of people who would not consider other reasons valid for having an abortion at that point in pregnancy, but they would consider Kristyn’s reasons valid, right? She had a fatal fetal diagnosis and complications that were threatening her own health and safety. But even then, she was delayed, I mean, she initially received this diagnosis at 20 weeks, and she wasn't able to get an abortion until 27 weeks. It's a seven-week delay.

Jennie: Wow.

Garnet: Which is excruciating.

Jennie: Yeah. And, like, as we know, like, later in pregnancy, the price also goes up. So, like, that goes into the, like, other reasons why people delay, right? Because it takes time, and to raise money, and there are just so many reasons, and all of your reasons are valid. Like, there is no good or bad abortion, there's just the abortion you need or want. There's just abortion. It's healthcare. I just found it really important to hear her story again, just thinking of, like, what overturning Roe is gonna mean and how it's gonna impact even more stories like this and so many other stories.

Garnet: Mm-hmm. Yeah. And another thing I wanted to highlight about that story too is that, even when we still had Roe intact, it was incredibly difficult to get an abortion later in pregnancy. And now we're about to have a lot more people who need abortions later in pregnancy, because they're gonna be so delayed by bands in their home states. And, you know, even in those “blue states,” a lot of blue states really don't have good access to later abortion care either, which is one reason why it's exciting to me to see Partners Clinic opening in Maryland, DuPont Clinic is there in D.C. You know, we need more of those clinics that offer abortion care in all trimesters, because that's about to become much more in demand.

Jennie: Yeah. And, and even if you're in those, like, safe blue states, like, where do you think the people are going to go, who are in states where it is banned? Like, those states are not, like, no one is equipped to handle this kind of influx that a lot of these states are going to see.

Garnet: No.

Jennie: So, you're gonna see delays everywhere. I think more and more, like, I really just…chaos is, like, the most apt term for what we're going to be seeing going ahead.

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Okay. There was one more thing that's been going around that I really…I wanted to talk to you about cuz I know that you have had conversations about this. And that's the meme that's been going around about “We Will Adopt Your Baby.” So, I know you've done some reporting on this, or at least you have had conversations around it. Why is adoption not an alternative to abortion? I think a lot of people just, like, throw it out there. Like, “yeah, no, just give the baby up for adoption!” Like, why is it more complicated than that?

Garnet: Yes. This is actually what the next episode of ACCESS is gonna be all about. And it was inspired by a storyteller who reached out to me, who has herself placed a child for adoption in her teens and then later in her twenties had an abortion. So, she's had both of those experiences, and she says that her adoption experience was traumatic, and her abortion experience was not. Tt was really empowering and positive for her. So, you know, I also spoke with Gretchen Sisson, who researches adoption, and she was one of the researchers who worked on The Turnaway Study. And what they found in The Turnaway Study, when, you know, they compared people who got their wanted abortions and people who were denied wanted abortions is that, I believe, 91% of those people chose to parent the children that they had. So first of all, not very many people choose to place a child for adoption, even when the pregnancy was not planned and they might have preferred to have an abortion. Although Gretchen did make an interesting point that even though that's kind of from one perspective, a very small number, right? Like, the vast majority of people choose to parent. She pointed out that actually that stat is kind of similar to the pre-Roe relinquishment rate. So, we may actually see similar numbers of people place their children for adoption as we did before Roe, even though that is overall a very small proportion of people who are dealing with unplanned pregnancies, if that makes sense. But adoption is complicated, both for the parent who is placing their child for adoption and for the adopted child. You know, it's very emotionally complex and parents who place children for adoptions really don't have a lot of rights in most states. So, one thing I learned in this process of reporting this episode, is that in most states, you can have an agreement with your child's adoptive parents about, you know, how open the adoption is going to be, and what level of contact you're gonna have with the child, and you have no power, really, to enforce that. So, the family that has adopted your child can essentially at any time, again, in most states, choose to just stop following that agreement that you reached. And so, you know, I think there's this idea, particularly now, like, oh, adoptions are so great for everyone, right? Like, they're so open. Birth parents just have all these opportunities to be in their children's lives in ways that they usually were not pre-Roe. But it's just not true, and that's one thing that Nikki, the storyteller I spoke with, talks about is that the family that adopted her child did end up cutting off contact with her for a period of time, and it was really difficult and painful and confusing for her. And so, she's only now kind of getting to know her child again. So, I think when people present adoption as an alternative to abortion, first of all, adoption is an alternative to parenting. It's not an alternative to pregnancy. Abortion is an alternative to pregnancy. So, you know, suggesting that it's no big deal to place a child for adoption ignores the fact that pregnancy is incredibly difficult, and demanding, and dangerous in this country, especially if you are a person of color, and especially if you're a Black person. And then, it also ignores the fact that adoption is very emotionally complex and often painful for both the birth parent and the adopted child, which isn't to say that there aren't adoptive parents out there who are great parents, who really mean well, and who are, you know, loving, supportive parents to their children. It doesn't change the fact that it's very complicated and can be difficult.

Jennie: Yeah. I think that's so important. You know, drawing that distinction between adoption being the alternative to parenting, not to abortion because yeah…you still have to go through pregnancy and…

Garnet: I know.

Jennie: As you said, like it is not a zero-risk thing, right?

Garnet: Yeah. Absolutely.

Jennie: Like, it is so dangerous in this country. Well, I'm glad we were able to dig into that cuz, man, that meme has been everywhere, and, you know, it also takes me back to, you know, when the case was, was argued and you know, Justice Coney-Barrett being like, “oh, well you, you know, there are safe haven laws, and like, like that's an alternative to abortion, right?” Like, these are not alternatives to abortion. They are alternatives to parenting.

Garnet: They are. Yeah. And I think, especially the way she said that, to me, came across as so flippant, and I think that's really insulting. It's really insulting to pregnant people.

Jennie: Yeah.

Garnet: And it's also insulting to adopted children and, I mean, adults who are adoptees. Because clearly, you know, there's nothing simple about it.

Jennie: Well, as we like to end the podcast with not…despair in the moment, but an opportunity to take action, what can people do right now? I'm sure people are more energized than ever to get involved. What are some actions people can take?

Garnet: I always suggest donating to, or fundraising for abortion funds. Another thing that's going around is lots of people wanting to offer their spare room to strangers to come and stay with them if they need an abortion, right? And, you know, I do think that lots of people mean well in wanting to do that, but it's important to remember, first of all, as we've already touched on, that anti-abortion groups are just looking for opportunities like that to intercept abortion seekers. I would bet you a million dollars that you have people who are involved in anti-abortion groups out there making those offers, “come and stay with me!” And then what do they wanna do? They wanna be like a crisis pregnancy center, except worse because you're in their house, and now they're gonna try and convince you not to have an abortion or prevent you from doing it. That's really scary, right? So, it's important that any organization that is working with people to host abortion seekers, and there are some, that they be able to vet people and make sure that they're safe. So, if you wanna prove that you're a safe person, you should really get plugged in with your local abortion fund and figure out what kind of help they need. You know, if that's money, whether that comes from you or it comes from you having some kind of a fundraiser to get other people's money, that's great, or if they need volunteers, to really get plugged in with them and prove yourself to be that, kind of, trustworthy person. And then, I also think that independent clinics really need support. Going back to our conversation about clinic workers, they are working so incredibly hard, and they're dealing with just awful, really traumatic circumstances this week, and frankly, they have been for a long time in a lot of states. And it's, really, independent clinics, meaning those not affiliated with Planned Parenthood, who have been leading the way in providing abortion care in the most restrictive contexts and still are leading the way. And you know, a lot of independent clinics in states that are banned states now are looking to reopen in other states. You've got Red River Women’s Clinic in North Dakota that's gonna move across the border to Minnesota. You've got Choices in Tennessee that is staying open there but won't be able to provide abortion services, so they're opening a new clinic in Illinois. I believe Jackson Women’s Health, the clinic in Mississippi at the center of the Dobbs case, is looking to move to New Mexico. So, that's another great opportunity to support abortion care is to figure out what independent clinics need, again, if that's your money, or money that you can raise from other people, or check in with them to see if they need volunteers, check in with your local clinic, wherever you live, to see if they need escorts or other volunteers to help them out with this huge influx of patients that they're about to see.

Jennie: Yeah. Those are all great suggestions. People can donate to independent clinics directly, or there's Keep Our Clinics…Which funds independent clinics, which is also a helpful place to find information.

Garnet: Yup.

Jennie: Well, Garnet. It was so wonderful talking to you. Everybody, make sure to check out the ACCESS podcast. We'll make sure to have links included in our shownotes. It was so great to finally get to talk to you.

Garnet: Yeah, it was great talking with you too. Thanks so much, Jennie.

Jennie: Okay, y'all. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Garnet. I had a really wonderful time talking to her about all of these issues, dealing with a bunch of technical difficulties. Both of us were having some internet issues, so we had to start and stop a couple times but really grateful we were able to have a wonderful conversation. For sure, make sure to check out her podcast, ACCESS, the podcast, available wherever you get your podcast. We'll have links. Don't worry. If you have any topics you would like us to cover or questions, always feel free to reach out to me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, and that's Jennie with an I-E, or you can reach out to us on social media. We're @reprosfightback Facebook and Twitter and @reprosFB on Instagram. Otherwise, I will see y'all next week! For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit us at our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at @reprosfightback and on Instagram at @reprosFB. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends, and please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening.

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