Rev. Katey Zeh on Her New Book A Complicated Choice: Making Space for Grief and Healing in the Pro-Choice Movement

The ways in which abortion is often publicly debated can result in the harmful depiction of the experience of ending a pregnancy in overly simplistic terms. Rev. Katey Zeh, CEO of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, and Author of A Complicated Choice: Making Space for Grief and Healing in the Pro-Choice Movement, talks to us about her new book, the myths and stigma that people must wade through when getting an abortion, and the vast amount of feelings and experiences many people may have when accessing care.

A Complicated Choice chronicles the complicated feelings that people have around their abortion experiences. Overall, the book highlights how people can make decisions surrounding abortion and have a lot of nuanced, complex feelings around it—but that doesn’t mean that it wasn’t the right decision. In addition, many people experience internalized abortion stigma, due to far-reaching myths and rhetoric spread by those who are anti-abortion. This stigma can often display itself as a sense of isolation in one’s experience.

White Christian nationalism intertwines greatly with the stigmatization of and logistical attacks against abortion. Steeped in racism, sexism, classism, and Christian nationalism, these abortion attacks disproportionately harm Black people, Indigenous people, other people of color, the LGBTQ+ community young people, etc. 

Find Reverend Katey Zeh’s book at your local bookstore or on bookshop.org

Links from this episode

A Complicated Choice by Katey Zeh
Katey Zeh on Twitter
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice on Twitter
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice on Facebook
The Kindreds Podcast
INeedAnA.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Abortion Fund Donation Finder
AbortionsWelcome.org
Religion and Repro Learning Center

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more – giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

Read More

Jennie: Hi rePROS. How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So, before we get into this episode, I just wanna flag: I recorded this the day before the SCOTUS decision came out. So, Katey and I do not talk about, obviously, the fall of Roe in this conversation, because it hadn't happened yet. We talk around it, so like, don't think it, it's irrelevant now. We, we talk a lot about it. Just, it hadn't actually been announced, so there's, you know, we, we don't discuss the decision itself. I…uh, it has been a long stretch, right? I, I'm still really sad and really angry. I'm still working through all of my feelings. I took the weekend to try and revive and recover and, and, uh, feel all the feelings, right? It's a lot, y'all. And, and just know, again, that this is a marathon and not a sprint. It's really now more important than ever that we are taking care of ourselves and each other. Check in on your friends in the movement. It's exhausting. And so, it's okay to take a step back and check out for a little while. It's okay. You can't do it all all the time. Like, we can't. We are not made that way. We need to take a step back and recharge and step back in when you can. And, and I think that's what we're gonna be needing to do a lot of right now. I think I'm gonna keep my intro pretty shor. Katey and I had kind of a long conversation, so I, I might just stop there and just, just say, take care. Take care of each other, and take care of yourself. And with that, let's turn to my interview with Katey Zeh. Y'all, I am so excited for this conversation. Katey is just…she's a friend. She is just…she's amazing, y'all. She is just utterly amazing. I am always a bit in awe of her. She just has this amazing way of talking about these issues with so much heart and love, and every time I just sit back and listen in awe, because she's just pretty freaking amazing. So Reverend Katey Zeh is the Executive Director of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice. She's also a pastor. She has also written two books, and she hosts her own podcast. When I say this woman is talented, she is really freaking talented. Look at all this stuff she has done. She is amazing. I am just so grateful. She took time to talk to me, to talk to us all, and I hope you enjoy the conversation. Hi Katey! Thank you so much for being here!

Katey: Hi, Jennie. It's so good to be back! I'm excited.

Jennie: I'm excited to talk to you too. I guess before we get started, do you wanna take a quick second and introduce yourself?

Katey: Absolutely. I'm Reverend Katey Zeh. I'm the CEO of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, or RCRC. And I just published my second book, “A Complicated Choice: Making Space for Grief and Healing in the Pro-Choice Movement.”

Jennie: I'm so excited to talk to you about a number of things, one of them being your book. But I kinda thought, like, in this moment, first of all, I think we need to flag: we are recording this on Thursday, June 23rd. So, Roe has not been…like, the Dobbs decision has not come out yet. It may come out in between when we've recorded and when this comes out next Tuesday, but just feels like a useful flag to put down. But one of the things I have seen you speak really eloquently about is burnout. There's a lot going on right now and we're all feeling it. And I thought I would just give you some space to talk about it. Cuz I think it's so important that we address it because if we don't address it, it's just gonna keep getting worse.

Katey: Such an important conversation. And I'm certain this will resonate with a lot of listeners who work in this space or really just being a human being right now is difficult. I can speak a little bit about my own journey, which was the day that SB-8 in Texas happened, I recognized within myself that I did not have an emotional reaction to it. I just felt completely numbed out. And it really took me by surprise because I'd never experienced that kind of a reaction to something so huge and horrifying. And I thought, well, that's weird. Let me just sit with that, and I would try to write about it or talk about it, and it was almost like I didn't have anything to say, which as a writer is really difficult because normally words are my go-to for processing things, and I just, I didn't have anything left. And I was in therapy one day. I have an amazing therapist. And I was articulating to her how I was feeling about it. And she said, “Katey, you're you have burnout. Big time. And you need to take time off. And I don't mean a couple of days. You need to take significant time off.” This was October of last year, or maybe September. Yeah. This was September of last year, cuz that's when SB-8 came down. And uh, my first reaction of course was “I can't do that. I can't take time off right now. There's so much going on. We've got everything going on,” all the excuses that, that we can come up with for not doing it, but the more I sat with it and the more I talked about it with my team, I realized I really did need to do that for, for my own sake, and so I took three weeks off in October. And that was probably just enough time for me to realize how burned out I was. And, and so as someone who, you know, needs a job, needs to be employed, I'm the breadwinner for my family right now, which I'm honored to do, I've had to figure out ways to cultivate more of a sustainable approach to this work. And you've been doing this work for a long time, Jennie, as have I been engaged in the repro movement since my early twenties, I'm almost, I just turned 39. So, it's over 15 years now. It's a long time to be in this work, especially when, when it's so difficult. And so, just remembering for me that I'm, I am one person. I do have a unique role to play. I know that I'm supposed to be in this work. I very much feel it's my calling. And it's not just on me. And it's gonna, the work is gonna continue after my lifetime. I'm very confident of that. As much as I wish we could solve this in, in our lifetime, I, I just don't think that that's the case. And so, making sure that I can do this work with…in the way that I want to, from a place of hope and joy and enjoying my life. I think that that's really essential. We don't talk enough about how to do that. And so, I know for me what I've tried to cultivate in my organization and with my team really during the pandemic…starting with the pandemic is just your wellbeing is the most important thing. It's more important than any of the work that we do. And I really try to make that the value of how we do our work and applying it to myself is the most challenging thing, but I'm learning. I'm learning to do it.

Jennie: Oh, I feel that so much. Like, I'm so good about talking to my colleagues about, like, no, like, you need to step back, like, take the time. But, like, actually doing it on my, like, taking my own advice? I'm terrible at it.

Katey: And it is a discipline. It's not easy. Rest, taking a break, caring for ourselves…that is discipline. It's work. It's labor. And sometimes it gives us the space to deal with the things that we don't wanna deal with. It allows the emotions to come up. You know, when I was talking about the numb feeling, I think sometimes work becomes a coping strategy for not feeling what we're feeling. And I know a lot of my healing work for myself over the last few years has really been about getting in touch with that hard space, and what is it that I'm actually feeling? And that work can be really, really uncomfortable. So, I understand it. So, if you're listening to this, take this as permission and an invitation for you to, to identify if you're burned out and to start looking at what you need to do to take care of yourself. Easier said than done. I really do understand that. But you've got a community of people who are cheering you on and taking care of yourself.

Jennie: Yeah. I, I recognize that numb space, like…It feels like when those big decisions or things have come down, there may be, like, a small time of, like, the anger or the sadness, and then it's just, like, shove it into the box. We have to like move on and do the thing. And ,like, that is not useful because at some point, and I'm sure it, it may be past that, like, that box can't hold all of the things that are getting shoved into it. And like, you need to deal with and address and taking the space to do it.

Katey: Yeah. Cuz sometimes what we end up doing is really taking it out on each other. And that's not to say that there aren't real issues of injustice within our movement. I'm sure you've talked about that with lots of guests and just with your colleagues. And at the same time, I think you're right that what we are experiencing is a form of trauma. It really is. And many of us come into this work traumatized. I know that I did. That is, in part, my motivation for why I do it. And so not, not dealing with that, and again, it's a lot of work, but when we don't, I think it does come out in these moments when we just can't take it anymore. And we end up doing more harm to ourselves and to each other in this community.

Jennie: So, I think this feels like a good chance to shift to your book because I think you talk about some of that in the book, but…It was so good, y’all. Like, please, please check out Katey's book, “A Complicated Choice.” Do you wanna tell us a little bit about it?

Katey: Sure. I like to tell people that it's not the book that I proposed to write. I was going to write something a lot more expansive about reproductive loss, in which I wanted abortion to be part of it, but when I put my proposal together, my publisher came back and said, “we really want you to focus on the complicated feelings that people have around their abortion experiences.” And it's definitely the book I was supposed to write. It was the book I was afraid to write because writing about abortion is like putting a target on your back, which I already have from the work that I do, but it just felt like…I don't know, an even larger target, maybe.

Jennie: The, like, next level. Yeah.

Katey: Next level. Next level. And at the same time, it felt like a book that needed to be written because, at least in the books that I've read and the conversations that I've had within this space, there just, aren't a lot of conversations about the fact that people can make abortion decisions and have a lot of nuanced and complicated feelings about it. And it doesn't mean that the decision was something that they shouldn't have done. It's just a deeply human thing, not for everybody, but for, for a lot of people. A lot of people that I've talked to in the pro-choice movement have told me their abortion stories and said, I don't share all of my experience with my colleagues because I don't want my story to be turned against the movement. I don't wanna share that I grieved or wish that I could have made a different decision if my circumstances had been different. And I just thought, this is not okay. This is not okay that we're not creating space for people's full abortion experiences, whether they tell them to us or not. And that was why I wanted to write the book was just to offer space for people to really show up in their full humanity. It is an abortion storytelling book. I'm not someone who has experienced abortion in my life, and I wanted to center the people who have. And what I try to do is tie the stories together under some common themes, which was difficult because there's so much overlap and so many unique things about each story…really tying the people's individual decision-making and circumstances to the larger systemic issues that we know impact people's reproductive flourishing in the book. So, that's a little bit about “A Complicated Choice.” I loved all of the storytellers who are so generous in sharing with me, some of whom were sharing things for the first time publicly, which I really take as a, as a sacred honor and responsibility. And, you know, for context, what I really want people to do is to start thinking about their own internalized abortion stigma. That's a huge part of the book is really about the ways that just living in this culture, in which the Anti-abortion movement is so insidious and loud, it's impossible not to have absorbed at least some of their messages around abortion. And so, my hope is that by listening to people's stories that we can start identifying the parts within us that maybe have some discomfort, or unease, or questions about abortion, and start to dismantle that stigma so that we can show up for people in a more compassionate way. And I think that that's really essential work for all of us to be doing right now. A lot more is gonna be needed in terms of direct service and care for people, and so, doing that internal work as someone who wants to be helpful is so important. Because if we don't, we end up replicating harm that we don't intend.

Jennie: This book could have been done really poorly, right? There are so many ways talking about this could have gone wrong, and, and I couldn't think of a better person to come at this with such compassion and love for the stories that it just, like, bleeds through in the book. Like, I, I just couldn't imagine somebody else writing this book in such a way. Like, I think you just did an amazing job telling the stories and making the points you were trying to make. So, thank you for that. I, I think you were…they were stories that needed to be told, and I think did an amazing job telling them. I also really enjoyed you talking about dealing with abortion sti-, like the internalized abortion stigma. I've definitely told, you know, my stories about, you know, I grew up going to Catholic school. I definitely got a lot of that, obviously through that time. And so, you know, dealing with all of those things that you, you hear and just take on, even if you don't necessarily believe them, but like, it, it just…you're steeping in it, right? Like, it's just everywhere. And I thought that was a really good chance to reflect on things that I have been doing and maybe not framing it that way in my head, right? Like, just working through learning more about abortion and abortion stories and where I feel uncomfortable with things and then dealing with it because like, that's me, that's not about abortion, right? That's not about people who need the care. That's, like, things that I have taken on that are unhelpful and, like, starting to work through them.

Katey: Yes. Very beautifully put. And you were making me so teary a minute ago, so thank you for giving me a minute to…

Jennie: Sorry!

Katey: No, it was very, it was very sweet, and that means a lot. I really do feel like I was entrusted with this very precious thing. So, I'm, I'm thankful that it landed that way on you and for the storytellers themselves to tell me how seen and honored they felt. That is the most important thing, so thank you. Um, it was an honor to do it. And one of the first people I spoke with when I started to write the book was Renee Bracey Sherman from We Testify, and she really helped me in that framing around abortion stigma, and of course, We Testify and Youth Testify storytellers are, are throughout the book, very compelling storytellers who are wonderfully supported in community. It's a beautiful model that they have. And like you, I didn't grow up in Catholic school…going onto Catholic school, but I did grow up in a conservative evangelical community, and I talked about that the last time I was on, on the show. And even though I don't actually ever remember myself being opposed to abortion personally, the, those were not the values that were taught to me in my house, my household, I definitely had the abortion stigma for sure. And I talk about in the book, the moment I really realized that was when I walked into an abortion clinic for the first time to volunteer and was perceived to be a patient. And that really bothered me because, well, one, it’s just not fun to be yelled at and harassed for one, but also I didn't really wanna be perceived as someone there to have an abortion, and I had to figure out why that bothered me so much. And it was because I had judgements about people who have abortions, and I thought that wasn't me. I saw people having abortions as separate from me. And honestly, I've never said it this way, but that's kind of the definition of sin that makes sense to me is, like, the idea that we're separate from each other, because we all are interconnected. We are, we are in community with each other and what impacts one person impacts all of us. And so, again, I've never said it that way on any other show, but it, like, that really did feel like the thing that I needed to, to really work on within myself, and I liken it to internalize racism and sexism and all those things. It, it is a product of living in this culture. It doesn't mean it's our individual fault that we have these things, but it is our responsibility to address them. And when we do that work, we free ourselves, for one. And then we also make ourselves available to center the people who are most impacted.

Jennie: Yeah. Similar to you, like, I think I had my first encounter with, like, thinking through abortion. It was kind of put on me versus, like, I had thought it through yet. Uh, and I've told the story lots of times, but with a girl I went to school with asking me to go with her, to go to Madison, to save babies. And like, I hadn't really thought of abortion yet. Cuz like, I don't know, we were in like fourth or fifth grade. Like, we were pretty young and like…So, I hadn't like thought through anything or even really knew completely all the things. So, and so, when I went home to talk about it, like that's when it was, like, okay, we need to sit down and have a conversation. And like, so, I was very lucky to be in a house where we had a deeper conversation to deal with, like, okay, you need to think about this much bigger. And, like, here's all the things you need to consider when you're thinking about this idea. And then they gave me the space to make my own decision on if I still wanted to go save babies or not, right? And like that, I also found, like, what? Like you gave, you're giving me the, the autonomy to make that decision? Even after being like, have you thought it through? Really?

Katey: That's such an interesting parallel. Yeah.

Jennie: Uh, which was great!

Katey: Yes! And I mean, as you were talking, I was just thinking, and this is kind of taking us on a, a little bit of a tangent, but it's related, which is how certain faith communities, Christian communities in particular, really do…prey on the vulnerability of, of young people, of children, of, of adolescence, and I think about my own experience of purity culture, right? The idea that to be pure is to not have any kind of sexual relationship with anyone until you're in a heterosexual marriage. Those ideas were introduced to me before I really had even gone through puberty all of the way. And so, making commitments or decisions about things that I really had no context for is pretty manipulative. And when I think about things like Project Rachel, this Anti-abortion, post-abortion ministry, again kind of preying on people's vulnerabilities who are maybe having some feelings about their abortions that are difficult, and they don't have a therapist, maybe they can't afford one, to then be told that the reason that they're having those emotions is because they did something wrong is very manipulative. And when we talk about reproductive coercion, I think there's also spiritual coercion that happens in not respecting people's autonomy. And so, I'm so glad that what was modeled for you as a young person, cuz young people have moral agency, was, you know, we're gonna make sure you have all the information that you need to make the decision that feels right to you right now. That that is a beautiful thing, and I think so few young people have that kind of experience within their faith communities and within their families and communities.

Jennie: Yeah. I didn't realize how…rare that was until I went to college and met some people who were from other more conservative faith traditions who, like, were really taught, like, not, like, this is the authority and this is, like, you don't question things, like, this is how it is. And so, after, like, being around some people like that, like, it really gave me this much deeper appreciation of that conversation and, like, setting me up to, like, think through all the things and question it and make my own decisions because there were so many people who weren't raised that way, and like, just, this is what it is and this is how we think, and we're not gonna question it. And that's, it was just very different from the way I was raised.

Katey: So many parallels there of just not making space for nuance and complexity. And just using control of, if you wanna belong here, then you need to subscribe to these values and ways of doing things. And that's definitely the kind of faith community I was raised in.

Jennie: So, I really enjoyed that you talked about stigma because when I, I did a couple episodes where I had storytellers come on and tell their stories, and like, the through line that came through in, like, I wanna say all the stories, but maybe not all, but for sure most was stigma, and it, it was externalized, like, stigma they didn't feel for themselves, but they felt whether it was protestors, or community, or just the level of stigma around abortion. And I think your book does a really good job of giving the, the fuller story of people’s realities even when there are complicated feelings around it…that really, I think do a really good job of working through some of that some of that stigma

Katey: As you were talking about your experience of storytellers, that was definitely a through line in the conversations that I had. I don't know that they named it as stigma specifically, but a sense of isolation is definitely what people felt, which those are related to each other because when things are stigmatized, they're silenced and people feel isolated in those experiences. I think part of it too, even people who were supportive of their, of their partners or their family members going through abortion experiences didn't necessarily have a framework or language, like, just didn't know how to accompany them supportively. And I talk about this in the book too, that there's lots of different kinds of grief that people go through, or losses that people go through. And as a culture, especially a White culture in particular, we don't do a very good job of holding space for people's grief or emotions in general. I was just talking about this with, I think it was with my husband yesterday, who’s a therapist, and how…so often when people articulate feelings that they're having that are negative, you know, we often, like, will say things that are about our own discomfort with their difficult feelings because we take ownership of other people's feelings and we don't wanna feel that way. And instead what it is, what we really ought to be doing is just creating space for people to go through those emotions and trusting them that they can handle their own emotional experiences, and we're just there to create space for them to express and to feel them and maybe offer support. But, but I think that there's something to that of just…even for the people who want to be there for others through this, there's a certain amount of, of training required, I think. Because we just are not adept at these conversations. We don't talk much about abortion in general. Obviously you and I talk about abortion a lot more than the average person. And it's kind of like talking about Whiteness for the first time as a White person, like, this is really….I don't know how to do this. I don't wanna mess it up. Well, you're going to. It takes some practice. And I think all of could probably use some practice in how to talk with people about their abortion experiences so that we can learn how to be supportive in the ways that they need.

Jennie: I think…oh man, a couple things really hit me, uh, while you were talking about that. And one is kind of unrelated and talking about how uncomfortable people are with feelings and like strong feelings. It makes me think of the…I hate even talking about it, but the Amber Heard trial and, like, the jurors coming out and being like “all of her crying, like, we were really uncomfortable and, like, made us not trust her.” And I just, like, because you didn't wanna process, deal with her feelings, you were just like, “no it's lies.” And like, wow. Like, just not to get into like all of that cuz, like, it's its own hmm…thing I can't talk about right now. But it just, like, that, like, talking about the feelings and, like, that was the part where they were like, “no, we're not gonna no.”

Katey: Right. Oh, so much misogyny and internalized sexism and patriarchy of…

Jennie: So much.

Katey: The only thing that matters is what you can say in an intellectual way, and if you can't talk about a deeply emotional experience in a detached way, then what you must be talking about is a lie. Oh, that is patriarchy right there.

Jennie: And then the other thing you started to bring up was, was Whiteness. And I have heard you and seen you write very eloquently about White supremacy in repro and in Pro-life movement. It’s something we haven’t really talked about a lot on the podcast, and I’d really love to hear your thoughts on it because I know that you have just, have some really great ones that I would love to share.

Katey: Indeed. I, I think talking specifically about White Christian nationalism is so important these days when we're talking about, well, really anything going on in terms of injustice, because it's all connected to that. And as someone who is an ordained minister, I think it's especially important, and who identifies as White, is really important to talk about how all of those things are interconnected, and I think for, for people to understand the history of how we got to this moment, White Christian nationalism is all over it from the very beginning. And I'm sure you've talked on the podcast about the Anti-abortion movement and its being intertwined with the political agenda of the, again, the White Christian nationalist. I'm not gonna call them the religious right cuz that makes them sound like they're correct. But really, it's always been about racism and sexism and classism and Christian nationalism from the very beginning. That's why it's been so very successful. And we know the disproportionate harm that these bans and laws do to Black and Indigenous people of color. We know, we know that that's true. And so, I think as a, you know, as a White person in a movement that historically has been run by white people, it's especially important to talk about how the Whiteness, in particular, is intertwined with, with all of this. I remember going to the abortion clinic of the doc-, Dr. Carhart's clinic in Maryland, or when Dr. Carhart was, was providing later abortion care in Maryland. I went to the first day that he was serving there, and I was with colleagues from, from the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, one of whom was a Black woman. And the people who were there to protest the clinic were all White people. And I can remember one of the protestors approaching this Black woman and talking about abortion as Black genocide. And I was infuriated for lots of reasons by that. And I did not really have the framework at the time. I had not done a lot of my own work around Whiteness, but what I said to this White woman was, “look at everybody who's here on your side. This is the Whitest group of people I've ever seen.” There was not a single black person there. And I'm not to say that there aren't Black folks who are involved in the Anti-abortion movement because there are, but I think the arguments that are made by the Anti-abortion movement around race in particular are so offensive because they do not recognize the history of reproductive coercion and oppression in this country of Black women in particular. And I'm sure you've talked about this book, but “Killing the Black Body” for me by Dorothy Roberts was such an essential read for me because I did not, I had never linked all of these different instances in ways that, that we, as a country have controlled and oppressed the…specifically the reproduction of Black folks. And so I think, you know, as someone who is a White person who White people will listen to, I think anytime I have the opportunity to talk about, like, the different ways that reproductive oppression has shown up historically and also to lift up the amazing work of reproductive justice advocates and the Black women who created the Reproductive Justice Framework and really educate White people about what that is, because I really do think that's how we are all gonna get free. I really do. I really do think that that framework and the way that it is so comprehensive, it touches every single injustice issue that we all want to tackle together. And so, I feel like that's the work in part, the work that I can do in the body that I have…to, you know, to help people see that abortion access is just one part of an agenda. And it's also just one part of this anti-, of the White Christian nationalist agenda too.

Jennie: Yeah. I…one, fully, yes. “Killing the Black Body.” Similar…I had like started to pull some of those threads together and when I finally read it, it was so great to just like, have it all, like, come together in one place and cannot recommend it highly enough. Honestly, if you're gonna be doing work in this moment, you…it's really a foundational text that you should be reading.

Katey: Yes.

Jennie: And, and thinking of your story, like, I, I think of those people who were there and, and who are using the, the Black genocide language, and I just, the other thing I think of is like, great, so how are you supporting the Black community then? Are you out advocating for programs that are going to support these people for the programs they need? Are you out there making sure that Medicaid is covering everything? Like, are you doing things that are going to improve these Black lives you're saying you care about by fighting this Black genocide. And the answer is generally no, right? So, you can't use, it's just all so frustrating. Like…Again, the like going back to the reproductive justice-ness of it, right? You need to be supporting all of it to…because that is, like you said, the only way we're gonna get free. And like, thinking through like reproductive justice in the ways it touches on so many things, and yeah. I, I'm a really firm believer in, like, we need to be thinking about all of the things together in order for us to move forward.

Katey: That's absolutely right. And as you were describing the protesters and, and your ideas of what they do when they're not protesting, I mean, we know as people who are in movement spaces, that we are often invited to go to protests and hold signs, and sometimes we do that, and we know that that is not the actual work. Those are moments to come together, to be in community to send a message, but that is not the work. The work happens, you know, in conversations like this and behind the scenes, you know, and I think for folks who think that showing up and just being somewhere with a sign is doing any kind of justice work, I'm, I'm sorry to tell you…it's, it's really not. It's an important part, but it's, it's where it begins. Definitely not where it ends.

Jennie: Okay. So, we should probably think about wrapping up.

Katey: Aw.

Jennie: We would definitely be remiss if we didn't talk about like the ginormous elephant in the room, which is the impending Supreme Court decision and Dobbs. I, so again, we're recording this, the decision has not come down yet. It may change. And, uh, when it's released, so with all…with that caveat, where are you at right now? I know I'm stressed but also glad we don't have a decision yet cuz it means people are still able to access care. Where's your head at with all of this stuff?

Katey: I've done so many interviews over the last month, month and a half about this, and you're asking it in a slightly different way. But one of the most common questions I get is how will this impact your work, this decision? And you know what I say to, to people in terms of the work is this really doesn't change the work because we have known that this was coming for a really long time and have been preparing for it, and the way that we get out of this is a long road ahead. It's not gonna be a quick fix. There will be an urgency to making sure people get the care that they need, and I think on an emotional level, that is where my heart is hurting the most is thinking about many, many people who are already suffering because of abortion bans and have suffered because of abortion bans for a long time. But the magnitude of that is gonna be something that you and I have not seen in our lifetimes, and that is very sobering. And I also know that throughout all of time, people have done what they have needed to do to make sure people get the care that they need, and that will continue to be true. And so, I hold the hope of that because I just, I know the people that we work with and there are lots of people I don't know who have been, have been doing this kind of work on the ground, and I'm so very grateful for them and want to offer whatever I can personally to make sure that people get the care that they need, because that is so essential to my call as a faith leader, to take care of people and also just our call as human beings who are in community with each other.

Jennie: Yeah. My goal is to keep all of those people in mind, but like maybe not the front of mind because that is paralyzing.

Katey: Yes.

Jennie: Like, my heart breaks when I think of all of the people who will not be able to access care, the people who already aren't able to access care. So that's why I do it, but, like, I can't, I can't focus on it because, like, it just, like, shuts me down. Like, it's one of those things that, like, if I really, like, think about it, like, that's it. That's all I can think about, and it's pretty paralyzing.

Katey: I, I hear that. And honestly, this is where, for me, my spirituality is so important. And I don't wanna participate in any kind of spiritual bypassing because the suffering is real, and it's something that we should all be feeling and asking, what am I being called to do in this moment to alleviate human suffering? I think that that should be a guiding question for all of us. And also, as someone who feels deeply, I identify as an empath. Maybe you do too. Or if you're just a human being with a heart. We do feel in our bodies, what other people are feeling. And that can be…it can cause us to not be able to get out of bed in the morning. And there are days like that for me now, and I've also really tried to cultivate spiritual practices in my life where I remember that I can only do what I can do and ask every day, what is it that I need to do today to, to live into my calling and anything that's not mine that I've taken on, I send back with a lot of love, you know, and just trust…I just trust that I'm, I'm doing exactly what I'm supposed to be doing and tuning into that guidance each and every day, even if it feels like something that's so small, I'm so thankful that we are in community together. You know, there are people like you and all your guests and all of our colleagues, we are all doing our part. And I have to remember that because there are days when it feels like the weight of the world is on our shoulders and that's real too, and the grief is real. So, honoring those feelings and then, you know, asking for help. I feel like I'm just constantly asking like the universe for help. You know, like, I don’t what I'm supposed to do. This is a horrible situation. Please tell me what I'm supposed to do. And, like, make it so simple and easy that I can't miss it. Those are my prayers.

Jennie: So, I talked about, right, like, what, like, the, the freezing, because yes. I am very much empathic like you, but what gives me strength and hope is this is a really freaking amazing community we're in. There are so many wonderful people working so hard and they just give me so much hope, and thinking, like, the Supreme Court may make a terrible ruling. I mean, they're going to make a terrible ruling. It is not the end. It is…I, my heart breaks for all of the people who are gonna be impacted by it, but the fight does not stop there. We will keep going, and there are so many amazing people that we are lucky enough to work with every day. And, you know, so often, if not every day, most days I am reminded of how amazing our community is, and that gives me the strength and the hope to keep going forward and keep fighting for all of the people.

Katey: I agree. I agree. And one of the things that I've appreciated about this time, which has been so very difficult, has been the receptivity to the message that I'm bringing and my colleagues are bringing, especially around faith and abortion justice in particular. There are people who have not heard this before, who are hearing it for the first time, that people of faith have always been engaged in the struggle for reproductive freedom in real ways, and just being able to share that message on this podcast and with other audiences, that gives me hope too because we are gonna have more people who are paying attention, who understand finally what we've been saying for so long and are gonna wanna join us. So, if you're listening for the first time to this podcast or new to the movement, we are so glad to have you. We need you. And thank you. Thank you for joining cuz we, we're really gonna need everybody.

Jennie: Oh my goodness. What a perfect segue to our last thing, which is always, so what can these people do? We are grateful to have them with us. What, what actions can our audience take?

Katey: Well for one, support, your local abortion fund is always the thing that I tell people to do. I'm sure that's an action item on most, most podcast episodes cuz that's…

Jennie: Yes.

Katey: One of the best ways to support your local community and people who've been doing this work for a long time. If you are someone who's interested in this intersection around faith and repro, I would love for you to visit the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, rcrc.org. And I'll name just quickly just two things. One is if you are an abortion seeker or you know, someone who is going through an abortion experience or processing one, we have a site called Abortions Welcome that's a spiritual companion site. abortionswelcome.org, which we developed with Faith and Women in Mississippi. It's a pro-choice spiritual companion, and it also has accurate information if you are someone who's seeking abortion care. So, I'd love for you visit that or share that. And also, our Religion and Repro Learning Center is a wonderful place to get started if you're wondering, how the heck did we get here? How did this narrative around faith and abortion become what it is? We've got webinars, self-paced courses and a resource library there that'll help you get oriented, and also get equipped to do the kind of direct service that we were talking about earlier. So, those are my action items. And of course, I would love for you to buy a copy of “A Complicated Choice,” which you can find anywhere. Please support your local bookstore or shop through bookshop.org to support local independent bookstores.

Jennie: Yes. And I definitely, I cannot recommend Katey's book enough. Like I said, it is really beautiful, and I couldn't…I honestly, I couldn't think of a better person to have written this book. Katey, as always, it was a joy talking to you. Thank you so much for being here. Also, I don't think Katey mentioned it, but she also has her own podcast.

Katey: I do.

Jennie: So, you should definitely check out Kindreds it is…I always enjoy listening to, to that podcast as well.

Katey: Thank you, Jennie, for that plug.

Jennie: And with that, thank you, Katey!

Katey: Thank you, Jennie. I so appreciate you.

Jennie: Okay, y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Katey. I had a great time talking to her. She is just really, truly a wonderful person. With that…let's see. If you have any questions or a topic you would like us to cover. Always feel free to reach out I’m at jennie@reprosfightback.com, and that's Jennie with an I-E. Or you can reach out to us via social media @reprosfightback on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosFB on Instagram. And unless something else major happens, I should see y'all in two weeks! For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit us at our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at @reprosfightback and on Instagram at @reprosFB. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening!

take action