Here's What a World That Achieves LGBTQ+ Justice Looks Like

The needs of LGBTQI+ people to live safe, healthy, and fulfilling lives are as important as the are universally necessary. Vivian Topping, Director of Advocacy and Civic Engagement at the Equality Federation sits down to talks with us about achieving LGBTQI+ justice, what a just world for LGBTQI+ folks looks like, and some hopes for the new year.

 To support and enhance the lives of those in the LGBTQI+ community, people need access to healthcare, job training, stable housing, and more. Unfortunately, constant legislative attacks to LGBTQI+ people’s rights and safety means that the much-needed progress on these core areas is put on the backburner while acute and dangerous fires are put out. Anti-LGBTQI+ and anti-trans ideology and messaging from far-right groups can be so severe that it seeps into a variety of political and advocacy circles across the spectrum of issue areas.

The good news? Over the past year, many states have passed transgender sanctuary laws, while 491 anti-trans bills have also been defeated. As we head into 2024, be on the lookout for continued extremism and misinformation, and also note that loud and out-spoken community resistance.

Links from this episode

Equality Federation on Twitter
Equality Federation on Facebook
Equality Federation’s Take Action Page
Improving the Lives and Rights of LGBTQ People in America

Take Action

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Hi rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I cannot believe it. Today is the six-year anniversary of rePROs! I cannot believe that I've been doing this podcast for six years. It is kind of wild to think about, and again, if we had gone back to tell six-year-ago me launching this first episode of the podcast that I would still be doing this six years later. There is no way I would believe that. It's kind of wild. I feel like I have learned so much doing this. I have loved talking to so many guests and having amazing conversations. It's just been so much fun. I, yeah, there have been so many amazing episodes and so many wonderful people talking about all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. Like, so many wonderful things we've talked about. I am feeling just so grateful for all of your support, for all of the amazing support from my team. Rachel has been with me since day one of the podcast. This podcast would not be going six years later without all of her amazing help and all of the wonderful things that she has done to keep this podcast going or helping me work through an outline for an episode where I'm not really sure how to tell the story we're gonna tell in that episode. She has been just an amazing resource behind the scenes that y'all don't get to see very often. And I'm so grateful for everything she has done to make this podcast better and stronger and to make the initiative stronger, including writing an amazing brief this year and presenting a poster on that brief at the American Public Health Association. Like, just watching her grow into this amazing coworker has just been awesome. And I'm so excited for the newest edition to our team, Elena, like y'all, she has been killing it at social media. Like, they are just so good at it and it has been wonderful watching them grow into finding their voice with our social media. If you aren't following us on all the platforms, make sure to do that. We're at @rePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter and @reprosfb on Instagram and Threads. So yeah, definitely check us out because Elena is just doing an amazing job, like they're just doing so great. And also, like, for with me for six years is our amazing editor. Like, Meg has done an amazing job of making me sound like I know what I'm doing, so I'm always grateful for that. So, huge, huge shout out and thank yous. Shout to Meg, Elena, and Rachel. Thank you, y'all! Let's see...I guess the other bit of housekeeping is you still have a chance to get our amazing "Abortion: It's a human right, not a dirty word" bag. If you donate to us more than a hundred dollars or more before the end of the year, we'll send you these amazing bags. They're super cute. Go check us out on social media if you wanna see pictures of the bags. They're really fun, they're really bright. They're in the bright hot pink and purple of our logo and, I don't know, I love mine. So, yeah, if you donate a hundred dollars or more on our website reprosfightback.com, you will get these fun bags and I hope to see them everywhere. Let's see what else? I feel like there is more I had to talk to y'all about...oh yeah, there is still time to vote for us in the Anthem Awards. We'll have links in our show notes and also available on social to vote for us under two categories, diversity, equity, inclusion for media and awareness and also under human rights, human and civil rights, also under media and awareness. So definitely show us some love if you, if you love us, I would appreciate it. Okay. I think those are all of the housekeeping things, which feels like a lot. And then just to note, this is our last podcast of the year. We are off next week. We'll be back on January 2nd with a new episode, but we're gonna take next week off because it's the holidays y'all. I'm really looking forward to it. It's gonna be nice to be with some family. Maybe also a little bittersweet. It's the first Christmas without my dad. And then also, like, the first time I'm gonna see, like...my mom has a huge, huge, huge family and we all get together on Christmas Eve, but like with the pandemic and then my dad, we had concerns about exposing him to a lot of people. So, like, we didn't go, we haven't gone and done the big family thing since pre-pandemic. So, it's gonna be really weird to see everybody again and have this really big family thing that I'm very much looking forward to seeing everybody. But again, it just feels a little bittersweet, but I'm looking forward to it and have lots of bread orders that I have to make for it. So, I'm looking forward to it. It's gonna be nice to see everybody. So, I hope y'all have a happy holidays, happy new year, and we'll see you in the new year. Okay, with that, let's turn to this week's conversation. I am really excited to talk about LGBTQ justice with Vivian Topping with the Equality Federation. So, let's go to my interview with Vivian. Hi Vivian, thank you so much for being here today.

Vivian: Hi there. Thank you for having me!

Jennie: I’m so excited to have you here and to get to talk about all things related to LGBTQ Justice. But before we get started, maybe we should do, like, a quick, do you wanna introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Vivian: Yeah, sure. My name's Vivian Topping. You can call me Viv. I am the director of advocacy and civic engagement at the Equality Federation. My pronouns are she/her/hers, and I am based in DC.

Jennie: Oh, wonderful. Me too. Okay. So, you know, we've talked a lot about trans rights and LGBTQ as it relates to repro on the podcast, but this feels like a really good opportunity with you here to, like, do maybe bigger step back and talk about the broader fight for LGBTQ justice and what does that look like?

Vivian: Yeah, I mean, I think it's really broad. It's hard to answer-

Jennie: I know.

Vivian: -a question like that, right? Because when we think about LGBTQ+ justice, it's not separate from anything we already have, right? When we talk about reproductive justice, when we talk about racial justice, when we talk about class justice, LGBTQ+ people are across all those boards, right? And so, when I think about it, and I think about LGBTQ+ justice, I think about envisioning the world that we could be a world where we are able to have bodily autonomy and live and be who we are, and we trust people to know who they are. So, really thinking about worlds where folks can thrive in every single community, community that they call home, no matter what state they live in, no matter if they live in a city or in a rural area. It's about making sure that folks are able to access the things that allow them to have their own bodily autonomy and be who they are.

Jennie: I love that 'cause it's so simple, but also so complicated, right? There's like so* much within that, but like the vision is clear and like basic, right? Like, it's just what everybody wants.

Vivian: Yeah. It's about bodily autonomy. I mean that's why I say, like, when we say LGBTQ+ justice, we're not just talking about people, we're talking about poor people. We're talking about people of color; we're talking about folks who live in every community across the country and across the world.

Jennie: Yeah. As somebody who grew up in, like, a rural area, like this is something that like definitely have lots of like—I mean, I guess like a little secondhand because like I am a cis white straight woman—so, like, but had friends who like definitely had to deal with, like, this added layer of not being in such an accepting environment, not feeling safe to come out and, like, and being rural and distant from places where they could find that acceptance.

Vivian: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennie: I think there's just something really powerful about thinking about the ways that LGBTQ+ representation needs to be brought into some areas where you, they're not talked about as much. So, you know, thinking through, like, economic justice and things like that, like, that's something where I think like the judicial conversation doesn't bring in the LGBTQ community in ways that is really important.

Vivian: Yeah, I mean, I would agree. I think that oftentimes if I'm in a space that is not LGBTQ+ specific, I am usually the only one in the room. And particularly I'm usually the only trans woman in the room. And you know, when we look at LGBTQ+ people and we look at the real needs and issues, it's wild because so much of our legislative work involves defending against attacks and LGBTQ+ people. But in the spaces where we could actually be sitting and thinking about what are the things that will actually enhance LGBTQ+ people's lives or get people there, right? We're talking about healthcare access, we're talking about job training, we're talking about being able to access and find a job that's actually a good job for you. We're talking about people being able to live their dreams and be who they are. And when we look at our legislative work, so much of our time is spent dealing with attacks and LGBTQ+ people that we don't have the time to even think about LGBTQ+ people's needs and what that could actually be. And when you think about it, the needs of the LGBTQ+ community are the same kind of needs as poor folks, as people who are trying to seek abortions as people who are trying to just live their lives in every way. The needs are all there. And so, like, there's all this kind of cross section that really kind of intersects across communities.

Jennie: Yeah. I really see this because I work a lot on gender in the global space and-

Vivian: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: -just trying to be like, okay, but everywhere needs to be thinking about how to incorporate women and girls and, like, more gender into their programs even that aren't gender specific programs because they are part of all of these programs and need to have their needs recognized and thought about. And then now you're starting, so that's, like, the ongoing push, but you're starting to see the like anti-LGBTQ and trans, like, creep into, like, all of those spaces where really wanting to get the very, like, no, it's violence against women. It's not gender-based violence. Like, wanting to be explicitly, like, excluding the trans community and non-binary people. And it's really frustrating to watch it try and creep into the work that we've been trying to build to make it more inclusive and to be broader and ensure that it's helping as many people as possible. And I'm sure you're seeing similar things creeping up everywhere.

Vivian: Yeah, yeah, definitely.

Jennie: Sure. Are there places where you're seeing gender spaces becoming more unwelcoming with LGBTQ? Like I feel like we've been hearing a lot of that coming from, like, the UK but I think we're starting to see some of that more in the US as well.

Vivian: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that there has been a major rise in what folks refer to as trans-exclusionary radical feminists. And to be clear that- when we, when we talk about these folks, like I, I don't totally like that name because at the end of the day, it's not feminism, right? Right. Like, when we think about the kind of things that are being, the kind of ways that anti-trans sentiment ideology has seeped into these circles, it's entirely centered in biological centralism. It is centered in this is one definition of what it means to be a woman, and that is it. Right? And it comes down to that same, that frustrating question that, like, far right, people keep ask-, like, will ask folks of like, what is a woman? And at the end of the day, like, you, you tell me, right? Like, when we think about this, when we start putting qualifiers on what it means to be a certain gender, what it means to be a certain human being, what it means to be there, we start ending up really kind of putting ourselves in this endless cycle of trying to have to prove to someone who we are. Trying to have to prove to someone who we are, who we say we are, right? I'm not, if someone tells me that they identify a certain way, I'm not gonna question them. Right?

Jennie: Right.

Vivian: Even if, even if, and like I wanna make space too for folks that like, even if that person does not fit my initial understanding of what it means to be that identity, right? Like, there is no one way to look a certain gender. There's no one way to look that. And I think that what ends up happening is our opposition will utilize, as much as they can, the misinformation and misunderstanding that folks have about transgender people and just really rely on that to exacerbate it and then attack other transgender folks just by being able to kind of move people along this direction where they don't understand what it means for your trans. And I think at the end of the day, it's really about this scarcity mindset in the world, this assumption that if I get something, then this, then someone else loses something. And that's not really the case. When we make the world better for the most marginalized, we make it better for everybody. Increased healthcare access is good for everyone, better wages is good for everybody. Like, more access to being able to live your life and be who you are—that is good for everyone at the end of the day.

Jennie: All of that. I also really appreciated something that, oh man, it's just coming up everywhere, right? The misinformation is just, like, we're drowning in it and, like, it's like this impossible flood to keep up on trying to push back on or find the way to like push back in helpful ways. Like, there is just such a flood of misinformation. What have you found to be useful?

Vivian: I mean, you know, at the Equality Federation, we really believe in being able to talk to those who don't, who don't agree with us. You know, at the end of the day, we're not gonna get anywhere if we are not talking to the folks who have questions and who aren't unsure. And before I even talk about the rest of this, I just wanna be really clear that it is up to any, like, marginalized person, what they're able to do, what they're able to stomach when talking to folks who may not agree with them. I am a white trans woman, and you know, I am employed and able to do this job, to do this work. Like, it's literally my job to do this, and so I am able to do it. But, you know, I think it's 100% valid as a marginalized person to say, I'm not having that conversation. I'm not doing it. I do believe though, that one of the things that we need to do is push ourselves to have these conversations with people who are conflicted. I'm not talking about the people who are pushing immediately anti-trans laws, right? Like, I think having conversations with everyone is important, we're there, but sometimes you can just tell by speaking to someone, this isn't gonna move, this isn't gonna work. They're not gonna be on board with me. But what I'm thinking about is talking to people like my mom, you know, who when I came out as gay to my mom, when I came out as trans to my mom, she struggled with it both times. And you know, it's understandable. You know, my mom grew up in Michigan. I'm from the Midwest and she has never had a trans person in her family before. She had not had a queer person in her family before that she knew of. And so, you know, she struggled a lot with it. But part of the way we were able to move forward is by just continuing to have conversations about it. And so, when I think about kind of, like, battling against misinformation, it's not just about throwing out facts and trying to debunk someone because when we do that, we end up being in this kind of debate back and forth and someone has to be a loser. I want to envision a world where we don't have losers. Like, we don't have losers in this space. What we have are people who grow and people who evolve. And at the end of the day, it is about being able to give space to folks to understand where we are and who we are and working through those concerns with them and helping them understand what it's, because once you actually sit down and talk to someone about some of the things that our opposition says, and if you really sit and think about it and kind of like give it a moment, you're gonna be able to work through it and be, like, this doesn't make sense. But, you know, our opposition really tackled, really kind of like takes that idea of exhausting their opponents from cultures of white supremacy. And what they do is try to focus on making you too exhausted to actually even think about these things. And then relying on your inability to actually sit and think about something and really just relying on the outrage factor as much as I possibly can.

Jennie: I really appreciate the thoughtfulness of that answer. Like, it really gets into- also from the Midwest from Wisconsin. So, like, lots of similar conversations I'm sure have been had with people who just are really unfamiliar with a lot of these topics haven't met, you know, a trans person that they know of. And so, it's all unfamiliar and I also appreciate that people…same, I've had lots of conversations with my mom like because of the podcast, you know, and things. And Wisconsin had like a...I feel like there was like an anti-trans girls in sports type thing and, and you know, she was hearing what was on the, the TV or ads and she's like, I dunno, something feels not right. Can you just explain it to me a little bit? Like, what is going on? And so, some people just need that further conversation to, like, understand, oh, that's what's happening. This is okay. Okay. Thank you. I needed that, like, clarification and like, that really can go a long way for some people and, and again, it's like gauging your energy of who you can or wanna engage with at any given point on a lot of these conversations.

Vivian: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennie: Okay. So, one of the other areas that we were thinking about was a lot of LGBTQ and repro, like have lots of crossover, but also LGBTQ people often have LGBTQ+ people, sorry, often have specific repro needs that we wanna make sure are being attended to. Can you talk a little bit about some of that?

Vivian: Yeah, definitely. I mean, I think first of all, just to be really clear, when we think about LGBTQ+ and the repro movement, they're one and the same, right? Like, it is about the fight for bodily autonomy for being able to be who you are for being able to make decisions at your own body and make decisions about your own family, whatever that may be, right? And so like, just starting off-

Jennie: Absolutely.

Vivian: -trans people access abortion. Trans people need abortion, trans people need reproductive care. Whether that is trans masculine people accessing abortion, whether it's trans feminine people trying to access family planning services, like across the board, trans people access the same kinds of care that's provided at reproductive clinics. And oftentimes, reproductive clinics are also the places where a trans person can actually access gender-affirming care. So, being able to get hormone replacement therapy, being able to access talk therapy, things like that. And so, the continued attacks on reproductive clinics end up also really reducing access to care for transgender people. You know, I'm someone who is able to fortunately access care, but in order to do that, I go to a place that is a specific private primary care facility go there. I have the ability to actually pay for a membership there and have to actually, you know, do a lot more work to be able to access a culturally competent provider. Very few trans people have access to that. And so, when we think about kind of, like, those connections as that, we think about specific needs for transgender people accessing reproductive care, you know, it's, it's similar kind of across the board, right? You know, when we think about this it's about making sure that reproductive care takers are able to actually understand why trans people may need access. Whether that's understanding that it's not just women who need abortions, it's also men, it's also non-binary people. It's people who need to be able to access care for their own body. You need to be able to understand that and have culturally competent care. Yeah, I mean it's hard to think about specific needs because it's just, it's the needs of a person. Yeah. Right? The needs of a human being as we kind of are living in the world and being able to access the care that we need in order to, like, be able to make decisions about our own body and what happens with our own body.

Jennie: I think one of the things you mentioned really brought back to like what we were talking about earlier, which is justice, right? So, you're talking about a lot of trans people not having the ability to access the same kind of care that you were accessing. And some of that is for economic reasons and like it's all, again, all of this is tied together and is all interrelated and interwoven to make sure that people are able to basically just get the care they need to have full bodily autonomy.

Vivian: Yeah.

Jennie: Okay, so since this is our like end of the year episode, I think it's really good to do, like, a look back and so, like, there have been so many, like, attacks on rights in the news in the last year, but what, what has given you hope or like what rays of light have you seen, whether it's legislation passed or actions taken—what is make what is making you happy looking back over the past year?

Vivian: Yeah, I mean, I think about two things, right? So, like, number one is that when we think about the ways that states have responded to anti LGBTQ legislation in many states kind of across the country, what they have done instead of kind of just, like, laying down and taking this, they have said, okay, great, like, we're gonna pass a trans sanctuary law. And so, like we've seen this happen in Minnesota and in states kind of across the country where what they have done is see the kind of current space that we're in and the kind of world that we're in and said, great, let's try to make Minnesota the best possible place for trans people. Let's do our best. And so, seeing states really react in that way is really just incredible to me to see. The other thing that I think about is, you know, we had 579 anti LGBTQ+ bills that were introduced this year.

Jennie: Oh man, I lost count at some point. I feel like the last I heard was like 400 and some. Oh my god.

Vivian: I know. And of those 88 passed, which is awful to hear, right? Like, I wanna be really clear, 88 bills were passed. But- this isn't my, like, hopeful thing in the world, right? But what that means is if we saw 579 that were introduced across the country and 88 passed, that means that we defeated 491 anti-LGBTQ plus bills this year.

Jennie: That's pretty amazing.

Vivian: 491-

Jennie: Yeah.

Vivian: -that were defeated, right? Like if you think about that, right? Think about that win rate, right? Like that's huge. And I'm not minimizing the anti LGBTQ bills that were passed, right? We now have 20-some states across the country that have banned gender affirming care for transgender youth. We are almost at 50% of the country that has banned that. But what we are seeing kind of across the board is that folks do not believe in anti-LGBTQ+ legislation. They do not believe in these policies. While folks may not understand what it means to be trans or they're working through their feelings on these things, rarely do folks sit there and say, well, yeah, that means that we should ban everything. It's more, I'm just not sure yet. I'm not positive. And it's once again, their misunderstanding or their lack of knowledge being manipulated by far-right extremist politicians to be able to pass legislation that attacks transgender people and that continues to make it harder for trans people to exist in public life. And so all that to say, the thing that makes me happy and that like I think about is knowing that we are going to win at the end of the day. At the end of the day, the folks that we are seeing the kind of legislation that we're seeing across the country does not reflect the majority of people in this country or in the world. And we know that eventually the pendulum is gonna swing right back and we're gonna be winning.

Jennie: Oh, God, I always love getting to talk about the hopeful part because as bleak as so many of the things are, there are so many things that give me hope and like yeah, like defeating over 400 bills like that is amazing. Like, that is just so much to hold onto.

Vivian: Yeah, absolutely.

Jennie: Okay, so—since again, end of the year—what are you looking forward to, or what do you…I guess we'll do like both, like, what are you worried about next year and then again, what are you excited to see?

Vivian: Well next year, election year. And you know, frankly we are probably going to see a continued effort by kind of experienced politicians to use trans people to rally their base and to use specifically misinformation about transgender people to rally their base. And so, we're expecting that and we're gonna see more of it. We're gonna see that legislation grow and evolve. You know, I think that we don't know always where our opposition's gonna go. And so, but we're expecting them to continue using trans people and continue using legislation to try to make it so that trans people cannot exist in public space. In terms of things that I'm hopeful for though is just the continued resistance. Every single time that these bills move, no matter what state, no matter where they are, there is constant loud community opposition to them. Every single time. You look at the folks who come and testify, you look at the folks who express positions, you look at the ways that people talk about them in the press, in the media, and you'll find that overwhelmingly it's negative. It's against the anti-trans opposition. And folks aren't on board with that. And so, the thing I'm looking forward to is seeing how that resistance kind of grows and evolves over the next year, especially as we enter an election year and kind of enter a space where we can really hold some of these people accountable and help them understand that when you pass anti-trans legislation, you lose your seat.

Jennie: This feels very, again, similar to repro, like the people who are against rights are small, but very loud.

Vivian: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: But there are more of us who believe in rights, LGBTQ rights, reproductive rights, like there are much more, many more of us who are in this fight. And we're just, I feel, like, getting more energized and more recommitted the more the other side is digging in.

Vivian: You know, there's a trans youth whose family moved from, moved away from Texas because of the attacks that they were experiencing there, but her and her mother are very, very engaged in trans activism and trans advocacy are doing amazing work. But the thing that this kid says—and I don't want to use her name because I don't want to increase anything towards her, you know, she is fortunately able to live her life and be a child elsewhere—

Jennie: Which is a huge win.

Vivian: Yeah. But she regularly says and has said at rallies when she's spoken, you know, there are more of us than there are of them. And that's true at the end of the day. And that's kind of what I try to hold onto as much as I can.

Jennie: Okay. So, I think that one of the things that we always like to focus on is: what can our audience do? So, how can our audience get involved in the fight for LGBTQ justice?

Vivian: Well, the first thing I'd say is find your local state equality group. So, we have about 40-some members across 39 states across the country. I believe we're at 43, 44, somewhere around there. And our, our state partners are the folks who are working on the ground every single day to try to advocate for LGBTQ+ people and defend against anti LGBTQ+ attacks. And so, if you're going to do that, you wanna get involved, you can go to equality federation.org. And if you go to equalityfederation.org, you'll find a list of all of our state partners. You can find them, sign up to volunteer, so to get involved. The second step is great, you signed up. Now show up when state equality groups, when LGBTQ plus communities are asking you to show up whether it's at the capital, whether it's by calling your state representative, whether it's by voting, whatever it may be, you show up in whatever way you can. I'm an organizer, I'm a firm believer that every single person has a role in every single movement, no matter what it may be. Even if your role is coming in and answering phones in an office or if your role is being able to do some data entry. All of that is incredibly important and incredibly needed within our community, right? So first, stay informed. Get involved with your local group. Second, volunteer. Third, money. You know, when we think about LGBTQ+ organizations we do not receive the same kind of funding that many organizations do. Folks don't understand who we are and why we're important and why LGBTQ plus people are an important community to be supporting. When we look at trans-led organizations specifically...believe it's 5 cents of every dollar given out by foundations actually goes towards trans-led organizations. And so if you think about just the massive under-resourcing of trans-led organizations, it's significant, especially even in this time even right now when trans people are the main targets under attack. And you know, I wanna be clear when we think about that, that trans folks are in every single community and many of those trans-led organizations are led by transgender people of color and are not given the support that they need to be able to actually do the amazing, strong, necessary work. And so, one of the only ways that they can do that is by getting funding from community and making a regular donation to your local trans-led organization. Whether it's a monthly donation, whether it's like you come in and you give something every, every few months or something. But making those actual donations to trans-led organizations into organizations that are on the ground actually, like, fighting the fight—that is one of the really important things that you can do.

Jennie: Well, Vivian, thank you for all of these great ideas and thank you so much for being here today.

Vivian: Yeah, of course. Thank you for having me.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Vivian. I had a wonderful time talking to her about all things about the fight for LGBTQ justice, and I hope y'all have wonderful holidays and a happy new year and I will see y'all in 2024. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!