New Year, New Blueprint for Sexual and Reproductive Health, Rights, and Justice

The Blueprint for Sexual and Reproductive Health, Rights, and Justice is a federal policy agenda that briefs every incoming administration on how to expand and protect domestic and global sexual and reproductive healthcare. Caitlin Horrigan, Senior Director of Global Advocacy for Planned Parenthood Federation of America and Candace Gibson, Director of Government Relations at the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Justice, sit down to talk with us about the 2023 Blueprint for Sexual and Reproductive Health, Rights, and Justice and how it reflects the overturning of Roe v. Wade. 

The blueprint outlines policy actions and leadership actions—including executive actions that can be taken by the President and asks for government agencies, including asks from the Department of Homeland Security, the Food and Drug Administration, and the Department of Health and Human Services.

Links from this episode

Blueprint for Sexual and Reproductive Health, Rights, and Justice
National Latina Institute for Reproductive Justice on Twitter
National Latina Institute for Reproductive Justice on Facebook
Planned Parenthood Federation of America on Twitter
Planned Parenthood Federation of America on Facebook
Issue Brief- State Abortion Bans Threaten 6.7 Million Latinas
Deepening the Divide: Abortion Bans Further Harm Immigrant Communities

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Hey, rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I hope everybody had a wonderful holiday season and a happy new year. I hope I finally got in the holiday spirit. So, you're hearing this very much from past-Jennie. I recorded this in mid-December before I went home for the holidays. So, even though I am back at work today, today is my first day back, so I pre-recorded all of this in advance. So, I hope past-Jennie, who was feeling very Grinchy still, finally got in some holiday spirit and had a wonderful holiday. I hope y'all did as well. Y'all, I'm still feeling really Grinchy, I dunno. I bought myself a chocolate advent calendar, so that sounded really exciting and was something to look forward to. And I have been enjoying a fun piece of chocolate every day. But I have to say, my friend Liza, who is amazing won, she sent me a 12 days of cheese calendar from dairy in Wisconsin. And y'all, it's been so good. It has made me so happy. The first day was a garlic dill cheese curd, and it took so much self-restraint to not just not demolish that bag in one sitting. It was so good. And now that I know this place delivers and delivers cheese curd watch out, I am in danger of ordering way too much cheese curd all of the time. But it was so delightful and made me very, very happy. But yeah, I don't know that I have a lot to say because y'all, I just recorded the intro for the episode that came out on the 19th, so I feel like I said all of my things. But I'm looking forward to seeing the things that we can accomplish in 2024. Mostly I'm thinking about, we're gonna talk about the Blueprint for Sexual and Reproductive Health, Rights, and Justice today. And I am very excited because it's an opportunity where all of the repro groups got together and were able to, like, dream big on what our asks were for, for this administration in the next year and in the next four years, and what we wanna see to achieve that vision of reproductive justice for all. And it was- it's great to be able to talk positive in dreams and not just fight back against the most recent attack. So, I'm really excited that that's what we're gonna talk about in this week's episode. So, let's just turn to that. Right. So, I'm very excited to have with me Caitlin Horrigan with the Planned Parenthood Federation of America and Candace Gibson with the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Justice to talk to us all about the Blueprint for Sexual and Reproductive Health, Rights, and Justice. Hi, Caitlin and Candace, thank you so much for being here.

Candace: Thank you for having us, Jennie.

Caitlin: Hi, Jennie. Thanks for having us as always.

Jennie: I'm so excited to have both of you on and to talk about a hopeful vision and not just like the new terrible thing that is going on, which is always a delight.

Caitlin: It's nice to get to the chance to dream-

Jennie: Yes!

Caitlin: -and imagine the world that we could have and, and a practical way to get there.

Jennie: Okay. Before we get started, because like sometimes I forget, let's have you introduce yourselves and include pronouns. So, let's go first with Caitlyn.

Caitlin: Hi, I'm Caitlin Horrigan. I use she/her pronouns and I'm the Senior Director of Global Advocacy for Planned Parenthood Federation of America.

Jennie: And Candace.

Caitlin: Hi, my name is Candace Gibson. I'm the Director of Government Relations at the National Latina Institute for Reproductive Justice and pronouns are she/her. Jennie: Okay. I, like I said, I'm really excited to talk about a dream and a picture thing. So, like, maybe we should start with this very basic, like, we're talking about the- what we call the blueprint, but maybe we should, like, expand and like- what is the blueprint? And let's go with Candace.

Candace: Yeah, sure. So, the blueprint is a proactive federal policy agenda that really represents some of the best thinking from the full spectrum of advocates within the reproductive health rights and justice space. This has been an effort that I think at this point is more than a decade [laugh]we create the blueprint for, you know, every administration coming in. And so, this iteration of the blueprint actually really builds on some of the policy actions that the Biden-Harris administration has been, you know, working on to really protect and expand sexual reproductive healthcare for everyone in this country as well as globally.

Jennie: Okay. Caitlin, did you have anything you wanted to add in, or?

Caitlin: Yeah, I'll just give a shout out that the blueprint is endorsed by over a hundred diverse organizations not only spanning domestic and global sexual and reproductive health rights and justice, but also includes so many important allies who are leading the way on LGBTI rights, on HIV issues, on gender-based violence, on youth. So, really brings together, like Candice said, the best of thinking on so many intersectional issues and is really grounded in, I think, a bold vision. Bold, but simple in some ways, that every person has the ability to make their own decisions about their lives and health, regardless of who they are, how much money they make, or where they live. And it also reflects, you know, the last blueprint that we did that, you know, Candace referenced was 2019. So, we're looking at that to see what we've achieved and what work remains, but also reflecting on how radically the world and landscape for our issues have shifted since that point. And, you know, at the risk of stating the obvious, right, like Dobbs happened since that blueprint was released. So, we have a Supreme Court decision ending the constitutional right to abortion, which not only had devastating, you know, domestic impact, but also global reverberation. So, you know, what's the new vision and what's needed to respond to that attack on bodily autonomy, which we know is not limited to abortion and not limited to our country, but, you know, coming for gender affirming care, sex ed contraception, LGBTI rights, pick your thing, right? They're coming for it. So, I think the blueprint policy agenda is really trying to provide that policy roadmap, not only to reverse this harmful trajectory, but to really think about what it would take to deliver a world with sexual reproductive health rights and justice for all.

Jennie: So, I have to say, one of the things that like caught me off guard was Candace saying that we've been doing it for 10 years and like-

Candace: And don't quote me on this, Jennie, [laughs] but that's my own observation...

Jennie: Well, no I-

Caitlin: I think it's been even longer. I started in this movement in 2008, and I think the first blueprint came in 2009, I think it-

Candace: Oh wow!

Caitlin: Yeah. But they used to be more private actually in 2019, it was the first one that we put fully publicly out there, which I think was a huge move for the community to sort of unabashedly share where we were going in our vision and really bring more people into that conversation and work with us. Jennie: Yeah. Like, mostly it was the, like, I can't believe we worked on that many and it's- Caitlin: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: It's been a lot and they're always big, and it's always nice to kind of do that big dream planning of what we want to make sure we're getting to repro freedom for all. And, but yeah, thinking back that it's been that long since we've been working on them is kind of wild. Okay, so there's multiple levels of asks that are in the blueprint. So, maybe we'll start, like, at the top. So, what are the kinds of things we are asking from the president or from the White House, and I guess since we started Candace last time, let's start with Caitlin this time.

Caitlin: Sure. Well, just to say the blueprint has a lot of asks. So, there's so many places to dig in and maybe if it's helpful, we sort of thought about them into two big buckets -- there are policy actions which are things like rescinding harmful policies, doing that proactive rule-making, and other executive actions that really protect and expand access. And then there are leadership actions, which are things like using the bully pulpit, you know, to combat stigma and misinformation, strengthen and expand existing infrastructure to promote better coordination for sexual reproductive health rights and justice, and doing things like championing these issues on global stages, like at the UN and really using the convening power of the White House. So, maybe to name a couple of specific things that we're thinking about, you know, for the president, as you said, let's start at the top. You know, one of the policy actions is really asking the president to put forward a budget proposal that would fully fund domestic and global programs, and also end appropriations restrictions that have long undermined access in coverage and care. And I think this is an area to Candace's point of, you know, budget proposals are made annually. We've seen some progress already in, in more funding proposed and, you know, some policy restrictions like hide proposed for elimination. But there's still a lot of work to be done. And we also know that the work doesn't end simply when the budget proposal is offered. And so what we're asking is for the president and the White House to really play a more active role in championing these issues with Congress so that, you know, when the final spending bills are signed and passed, that some of these things actually get included, so that they're not just proposals but actually, you know, get signed into law. And then we're also, you know, thinking about, you know, that we need more than just the policy vision. We need the people in place who will champion it inside governments. So, another asset we put forward for the president is to nominate and appoint people across really all federal government and executive branch agencies who are, you know, committed to and have a positive record on sexual reproductive health rights and justice, and really will contribute to the diversity of the exec branch. And I think for both Candace and I, as you know, working in government relations, you know, the difference when you have an internal ally and a champion who gets and appreciates and is thinking proactively, not just when advocates come to them, but on their own. So, I think thinking about how we can get more people like that serving in government and in key roles across the agencies and White House could be quite transformative.

Jennie: Candace?

Candace: Oh, I mean, Caitlin has brought up so many good points so far. You know, I think, you know, speaking to Caitlin's point about the bully pulpit, right? I think the White House has such, you know, so many different methods of communication with the public, right? And so many different platforms to champion sexual and reproductive healthcare. And so, you know, continuing to work with the White House to do that as well as to de-stigmatize sexual and reproductive healthcare and gender affirming care. I think there's just a lot of, especially, too, when it comes to using that bully pulpit, to fight back against the wave of misinformation, disinformation is quite important. Especially, you know, working with our activists in the ground, right? And hearing from their communities, a lot of individuals are confused about what their law- what their rights are, right? How do they access information? So, you know, continuing sort of to a) to stigmatize sexual reproductive healthcare, but then also to combat this misinformation I think is one key thing. And another important thing too is, you know, as we know the vision as advocates is gonna take a while [laughs] to achieve, to become law, and then to actually have impact in people's lives, right? So, you know, working with the White House to think through how do we create a permanent infrastructure to implement, you know, a lasting nationwide strategy on sexual reproductive healthcare rights and justice, because we know it's gonna take more than one administration to do this, right? And that's gonna be critical to be, to build back to, you know, a bolder vision of sexual reproductive healthcare access in this country.

Jennie: I really like your comment about a bolder vision, right? Like, there is so much talk about, like, let's get back to pre-Dobbs, let's like, get back to Roe. And like, it's really important to be clear, like, that wasn't good enough then. And it is sure is hell not good enough for like, looking forward, it needs to be bolder, it needs to be bigger. We need to make sure that everybody is getting access to all of the services.

Candace: Yeah, it's key, right? I think, and I think people want it, right? Like, I think when you talk to the public, they wanna be part of this larger vision, right? And they just, you know, and I think they wanna push their public officials to take a bolder stance.

Jennie: Okay. So, that's like the White House and the president. So that's like one bucket and it's a big bucket, but like, there's a lot-

Caitlin: Can I add one more because it's a new one and one that's very specific to 2024 and I think when we think about like, bold transformation looking globally and what's happened, and other key moments where, like, there's been a, just one of the asks that came to mind for the, the White House is around how the US government could engage on the 30th anniversary of the International Conference on Population Development, something that we call ICPD. So, I'll say those words for this sake of speed. But for those who don't know that moment, it was a really transformative shift for the international community to stop focusing on concerns around rapid population growth and shift the center of the debate and the work to be around the rights of individuals to make their own decisions about sexual and reproductive health and really put human rights at the center of sustainable development. And so, the blueprint asked the White House to really lean in and engage around the 30th anniversary with a high-level event in DC but not just a high-level event. Of course, we wanna see them commit to this vision and practical steps to get there. So, thinking about, you know, what could the US government do through both rhetoric and action on funding, on programs, on policy, to deliver a world with sexual and reproductive health and rights for all, and really centering people's individual decision making at the heart of that. So, I think it's just an exciting moment to think about where we've come and where we still have to go and hopefully, you know, galvanizing US action in solidarity with global movements and moments.

Jennie: And, like, what a great opportunity to use that bully pulpit to like, shout up this, like, new and bold vision, right?

Caitlin: Absolutely. We love an anniversary to galvanize action. [laughs]

Candace: I knew Caitlin, you were gonna bring it up. I was like, shit. [Caitlin and Candace laugh] She has to bring it up.

Jennie: Well, it's also worth noting, yes, it's CPDs anniversary, but it's also then the 30th anniversary of the reproductive justice movement, and it's so important to- Candace: Yes.

Jennie: -talk about them both at the same time because it was such a seminal moment in the way we change how we were talking about things and reaching for that bolder vision.

Candace: Yeah. And as you were and Jennie, like, I just thought about that a couple weeks ago. I was in a meeting, and somebody mentioned that was gonna be 30th anniversary, and I was like, oh, yeah, it's been that long that this movement has been around, but I feel like it's also a meaningful moment, right? Because the reproductive justice movement was born out of the human rights framework out of those international convenings, right? And so, I think those are both critical moments to really celebrate what we've done and also how are we moving forward?

Jennie: Okay. So, let's move on to the next, I mean, really huge--and again, I should point out for the audience, like, we are doing, like, real top level, there are so many great things in the blueprint. There is no way we could talk about everything in a 30-minute, 40-minute podcast. So, like, we'll have links in the show notes, check out the whole thing. But the next, like, big area to talk about is what are the asks for the agencies? There are a lot of them, and again, there are a lot of agencies. So, you know, maybe your top couple, and we'll start with Candace this time.

Candace: Yeah. Oh, I love- being called on or reminds me of being in law school [laughs]. So, in terms of some of the, you know, top asks, I would say, you know, the first bucket of work, right? Is that there's a lot of regulations that need to be finalized by different agencies. You know, for, for the list, you know, for the audience out there, right? Regulations is another form of law that really impacts daily life. And there's a number of regulations that will have a positive impact on access to healthcare in this country. So, one of them that we've worked on at Latina Institute is the non-discrimination provision of the Affordable Care Act. So, for the policy [indiscernible] out there, it's also called section 1557, very, you know, some jargon for you. But under the Trump administration, a lot of the protections of that provision were rolled back. And so, the, you know, the Biden administration issued their proposed regulation and we're still waiting to get the final version. But that law is important because ensures that people are not discriminated against in healthcare settings or by health insurance. And 1557 was very important. It was the first time that, you know, sex discrimination was considered in a healthcare civil rights law. And so not just impacts for, you know, for women, but as well as for the LGBTQ community. So, that's, you know, one of the, one of the many regulations. I'll also say another regulation that we have worked on with our immigration partners has been the regulation around deferred action for childhood arrivals. In 2012, individuals who were given deferred action were excluded from the Affordable Care Act through regulatory mechanisms. And so, the Biden administration actually a couple months ago issued a regulation to undo that harm, undo that damage. So, we're also waiting for that regulation to be finalized. But if it did, it would allow deferred action recipients or Dreamers, which I think a lot, lot people know that term much to under the Affordable Care Act. And that's just a critical piece because so many Dreamers out there are essential workers. You know, they were key to the pandemic response. And many of those individuals too are individuals of reproductive age as well. So, this is also a sexual and reproductive healthcare issue.

Jennie: Okay. Do we wanna turn to Caitlin and the global side?

Caitlin: Sure. Thanks Jennie. Well, I'll give a plug that there's a great section in the blueprint with as and recommendations for the State Department and USAID, which are two of the big pieces of government that play critical roles on global sexual reproductive health, rights, and justice. But just to lift up a few of the things that you'll find there, you know, we're asking the State Department and USAID and really all agencies that administer global health programs, including US missions all around the world, to provide more clear and proactive and ongoing communication that reflects us support for sexual reproductive health and rights. And also clarifies what is permitted under current abortion funding restrictions. You know, we'd love to get rid of those restrictions once and for all and, you know, have strategies to do that. But I think the US government has focused so much energy on telling people what they can't do, that we sometimes miss being very explicit and clear about what can be done. And there's a lot that still can be done. But there's also a lot of fear and confusion and self-censorship. So, we really need them to be more proactive about what is allowable when it comes to abortion services in settings where it's legal and including things like information and counseling. And we also still need them to be proactive about, you know, some early wins that we saw in this administration. You know, they ended the policy like the Global Gag Rule, but there's still fear and confusion in the field, and especially when a decision like Dobbs is made where they see a huge regression happening in the US and, you know, decades of precedent sort of fall away in a single moment. There's fear and confusion about what else could change rapidly. And the global gag rule is one thing that we heard from partners around the world, like, panic about, right? Could that change also? And so, there's been the need for a lot of reassurance that that policy is still gone, that there isn't, you know, an imminent threat that it could be reinstated. 'Cause we know that there's an aggressive attack by anti-abortion opponents on the hill and outside of Congress to spread misinformation and to really try to intimidate partners and programs. So, we need that to be met encountered by USAID and the State Department with sort of a proactive education campaign to implementing partners, not only so that they're aware of what they can do, but so that they have the confidence to act on it. And so, you know, when you look at an example like the statement posted through HHS around the Dobbs anniversary, I thought that was a great example of being really clear about where US values, at least at the federal level still are, right, standing behind sexual reproductive health and rights, and provided a really practical frequently asked questions section, which gets into some of the nitty gritty about like: what can be done? What is restricted? And that would be a really great resource for the State Department and USAID to, to be in more proactive communication about and maybe one other ask that I'll lift up for State Department and USAID, but again, really anyone who travels overseas from the US government is to think about prioritizing some time when they're abroad to visiting programs that are funded by the US government to advance sexual and reproductive health and rights, and to really sit with healthcare providers and patients and advocates and human rights defenders who are working on these issues to really hear about their experience and experience with US funding and policy, right? So that we can uplift them and improve our policies and programs in line with what they need and what they're telling us. And, you know, I like this ask because it was actually inspired by what we saw happening domestically with folks like HHS Secretary Becerra, and Vice President Harris and others who spent time visiting health centers and meeting with abortion providers and patients. And, you know, it's hard to put a tangible value on the power of that very visible solidarity standing with, you know, folks like that. So, we wanna replicate that power and that example of leadership globally. And to me it's one example of why an endeavor like the blueprint, which brings together people working on foreign policy and domestic policy, can be so powerful because there's so much to learn and leverage from each other's successes. And this is one where definitely global folks looked at what happened domestically and were like, we want that too. So, I do hope that we can inspire that to happen in some of the overseas travel.

Jennie: Yeah, it really goes back to that like getting rid of stigma and like going and being loud and showing the support visually. You have pictures and talking about these events and hearing what was said, and then you're also hearing from the providers about where the gaps are or where there are problems. And, you know, you always hear about how stories are so much more powerful than, like, us going in and being like, "hey, these are the problems," but like hearing it directly is often so much more impactful.

Caitlin: Yeah, absolutely. You know, these issues get so politicized, but these are real people's lives at stake and really practical impact. These aren't abstract debates for people. So, I think it's really powerful to take the time to hear that reality from the people who are on the front lines experiencing it.

Candace: And Jennie, can I add a couple more things?

Jennie: Of course.

Candace: Because the blueprint is so expansive and I know if I don't share these things, colleagues will be like: you didn't say this?? So, another area of asks that's in the blueprint is that there's a number of, you know, policy actions that were urging the Department of Homeland Security to take. Since SBA was, you know, passed and implemented in Texas immigrant communities have had numerous barriers to access abortion care. So, we work quite a bit with our partners on the ground in Texas on this issue regarding immigration checkpoints. You know, these checkpoints are set up along all major travel routes in Texas. And, you know, since abortion is practically illegal in the state, you know, many folks have to go out of state to access that care. And so, there's a number of policy actions, you know, urging the Department of Homeland Security to either, you know, close these checkpoints or, you know, create a process that allows individuals to go quickly through these checkpoints while ensuring their, you know, confidentiality as individuals and as patients. And then the second thing I wanna bring up which is really, you know, exciting is that right over the summer, the Food and Drug Administration approved the first ever you know, birth control pill to be available over the counter. And so, as advocates working on that, we know, right, that there's so many different sources of insurance coverage in this country. So, it's actually gonna take multiple federal agencies to ensure that, regardless of whatever plan individuals have, that they're able to access Opill, which is the name of the birth control pill without a prescription and without cost sharing. So, that could be a critical thing that we'll be working on next year.

Jennie: And again, another, like, good news story, right? Like, that's so exciting, gonna expand access to care. And, but the insurance coverage is a really important thing that still needs to be worked out. I was thinking one of the other things that we touched on is like a White House thing, but like, maybe just as worth, like, touching a little harder. A specific thing is, like, we talked about, like, appointing good nominee, good people in positions, but like that also means, you know, ambassadors or other levels of like foreign-related positions. If anybody wants to touch on that or we can just leave it at this, too.

Caitlin: Yeah, I think one of the things that this moment has shown us is that we need everyone to look at their purchase* influence and do as much as they possibly can, and that a much wider range of people have impact on these issues than what we might have traditionally thought of. You know, it's not just the offices with women in their name or reproductive health in their name, right, that have influence on these areas. There are so many pieces of government, and of course, Jennie, as you rightly pointed out, the courts--hugely impactful on these issues. And so, I think it's been a challenge for us to think more boldly about, like, how can we engage and also create a pipeline where our people are in so many more places. And Candace may have more good things to add there, but just totally agree and endorse with, with what you laid out, Jennie.

Candace: Yeah, no, completely agree. I mean, both with what, you know, Caitlin said and Jennie what you shared too. And I think this goes back to the point as well of like, not only do you need the right people in the room, it's also ensuring that, right, that sexual reproductive healthcare and health equity and racial justice are imbued in all of the government agencies at every level. Because we also know, right, that there's a lot of not just political appointees, right? But there's also career staff working on these issues. And so, we wanna be sure that, you know, they're keeping sexual reproductive healthcare and, you know, racial justice and a number of the equity issues, right, that are in the blueprint in mind when they're, you know, thinking through about how they implement these policies.

Jennie: Okay. So, we always like to wrap up with action items and there's so many things in the blueprint, like: if people wanna get engaged, like, what actions can our audience take to help move these issues forward? Let's go with Caitlin.

Caitlin: Well, I love an action-oriented ending. And I think clearly, hopefully it's clear that, you know, to deliver on this vision and the blueprint, we need everyone and everyone. SoI think listeners of this podcast certainly can help with amplifying the blueprint and the policy agenda that it lays out in your community and your platforms and, you know, things that come to mind or, you know, things like sharing it on social media, of course, talking with friends and family, you know, taking it to organizations and other partners working on sexual reproductive health rights and justice, but also related issues. I think, you know, we need to be in solidarity with many progressive movements and bodily autonomy has implications for so many different issues. So, helping, I think, to connect the dots further there is really helpful and powerful. And of course, if you're in dialogue with any of your policy makers you know, stressing that the importance of them championing funding, policy, vocal leadership, and visible leadership on these issues both in domestic and foreign policy, I think goes a long way. You know, they need to hear that these issues are important to you and to feel accountable to delivering, 'cause of course, many challenges in the world no individual or person can solve all of them. But, you know, I think we're gonna have to all be in it together, I think, to truly deliver that sexual reproductive health, rights, and justice for all.
Jennie: And thank yous when thank yous are due, like, so important to say thank you for your members of congress or senators or the president when they're doing something good. Like, everybody likes to hear that. Like, we appreciate what you just did.

Caitlin: Absolutely. And more, please.

Candace: [laughs]

Caitlin: [laughs] The advocate's classic. Candace: I mean, what Caitlin just shared I think especially as we're entering 2024, right? Just, you know, for, for listeners in the audience out there, right? If sexual reproductive healthcare and you know, other progressive issues or something that you care about, like, you know, please, please reach out to your elected officials, regardless of if it's at the federal level or at the state level, or even at the local level, right? You know, it's important to advance policies at all these different levels to actually achieve this, you know, vision of ensuring that everybody has access to sexual or productive healthcare in this country. So I think, you know, it's also what Caitlyn was sharing too, of like, you know, if you're out there and you work in another, you know, social justice sector or another progressive sector, you know, please, please, you know, use the blueprint and share that with your colleagues. 'Cause I do think sometimes, at least in DC we get a little bit siloed, and you know, it's just really important to, you know, continue these cross-movement conversations.

Jennie: Well, Candace, Caitlin, thank you so much for being here today. It was lovely to talk to you about dreaming big. Caitlin: Absolutely. And look forward to hopefully talking about more wins that we achieve from the blueprint.

Jennie: Yes.

Candace: Yes. No, thank you. Thank you so much, Jennie. It's always a pleasure chatting with both of you. And, you know, we need to have more conversations about these wins. Like, we need to have this type of, you know, space so that we can dream big, just like you were saying, Jennie.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Caitlin and Candace. It was really wonderful to talk to them all about the blueprint and to really just kind of have a positive dream big conversation, which I feel like we don't do enough. So, I am very excited that we have that. And I will see y'all next week. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!