As the Holidays Arrive, Here's How to Navigate THOSE Conversations

As the holiday season continues and people sit down with their family and friends around dinner tables and fireplaces, personal question and general conversations about current events—some related to sexual and reproductive health and rights and transgender health and rights—may arise. Erin Matson, Co-founder, President, and CEO of Reproaction, sits down to talk with us about how to have difficult conversations, when to engage, and how to build up your boundaries during conversations, confrontations, and questions.

Links from this episode

Reproaction on Twitter
Reproaction on Facebook
Erin Matson on Twitter
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

Take Action

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

Read More

Hi, rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Weather, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I just have to share, I just got the very, very sweetest email from a listener, Liz, and y'all, it just made my heart so happy. I am so excited to hear what I'm always excited to hear from our audience. Liz, I am so excited to see your email. Good luck in your residency. I hope it is going wonderfully. I am so excited to see that you're training to provide reproductive healthcare, including abortion. Best of luck. Maybe someday we'll have you come on as a provider. That would be exciting. I just thank you. I'm really glad that the podcast has been helpful for you and that it has taught you things. It is yeah, you just absolutely made my day when I got it, and I'm sure- I got it on Friday, and I'm sure it's gonna make me happy all weekend thinking about it. So, just, thank you so much. It really, like I said, made my heart really full and really happy. And y'all, if you ever have questions or comments, you can always shoot me an email. It's at jennie@reprosfightback.com. I'm always happy to hear from y'all. Let's see. So, this last time we talked, well, it was the AMA but I recorded that before Thanksgiving. So, Thanksgiving was delightful. My mom and one of my aunts came out and spent Thanksgiving with me, and we went out in Virginia near Shenandoah and spent three or four days out there just exploring and puttering around. We stayed at this lovely bed and breakfast that had just absolutely amazing food, and it was just so good, and it was so nice to get away from the city and away from work and all the emails and all the things. And then we came back to DC and played tourist for a day, which was fun. The only downside is, like, I didn't have a break before they left, and then the next morning got up and had to be faced with the mountain of email from being gone between APHA and the holidays. So, it was a lot this week, but that's okay. I have a nice quiet, long weekend with nothing planned. I had Liz's wonderful email to make me happy all day today, and now I'm gonna take the weekend and just do nothing. And it sounds just absolutely delightful. Maybe some baking, definitely some reading, watching some mindless tv. And yeah, I'm pretty excited to just decompress. As an introvert, that, like, a little bit of quiet time goes a long way. And I didn't really get that over the holiday, but it was delightful to see my mom and my aunt, especially because this was the first big holiday since my dad died. So, it was nice to be able to spend time with them and be with them on that. And then I'll be able to be with the rest of the family around the other holidays. So, that will be also delightful. And speaking of the holidays, here is the idea I floated in the Ask Me Anything episode where I said we would maybe tackle some of those awkward questions you get at home over the holidays or with your friends, or like politics come up. And I thought it would be fun to maybe tackle some topics that you could encounter, and I couldn't think of a better person to come on and talk about all this than the brilliant Erin Matson at Repro Action. I'm so excited to have Aaron here to tackle these tough topics. So, let's go to my interview with Erin. Hi Erin, thank you so much for being here!

Erin: Hey, Jennie, it's always a pleasure to chat with you.

Jennie: Do you wanna do a quick second and introduce yourself with your pronouns before we get started?

Erin: Absolutely. Thank you for that. So, hello, I'm Erin Matson. I use she/her pronouns. I'm co-founder, president, and CEO of Reproaction. We aim to increase access to abortion and advance reproductive justice, and we love the rePROs Fight Back podcast.

Jennie: Yay! Thank you. I'm really excited for this episode. I think it's kind of a fun- like, you always get some weird question, or some topic comes up that you're, like, oh no, how do I push back on this during family holidays or even not family holidays. Like, it can happen anytime. And it felt like a good place to start is like, feel out your comfortability, right? Like, you don't always have to push back if you're not in a place to do that.

Erin: Right? Right. Sometimes it's not safe to do that. Sometimes you just don't have the mental bandwidth, and that's okay. We don't have to be Warriors 24/7, 365. And for me, it's also a cognizance of realizing where I wanna spend my energy.

Jennie: Yes.

Erin: If I have, in the first place, to do it. It's also like, do I even have a hope or a prayer of seeding change with this person? Because if I don't, like, that's not work I have to do. Jennie: No, and I often feel like—because I'm sure you have this too, when you're around people—like, when you ask what I do, like inherently that become- can become, like, a tough conversation with people that I maybe don't wanna have it with. And some of my like broader extended family. And so, I have, like, the safety code conversation of concentric circles of what I do. I think of it as my, like, Uber conversation when they ask what I do. I'm like, oh, I work on women's issues and like, I don't wanna necessarily get into the fight if it's not a supportive space when I'm just trying to get a ride somewhere, right? And if they're comfortable, then it's like, oh, yeah, like family planning, like, and the circles get broader until I can feel okay having that fuller conversation.

Erin: Right, right. Yeah, no, I, the moment you said that, you know, I was thinking of two things. One, there was a horrible incident after the Reproaction staff retreat for a few of us who were on a flight that was supposed to go from Phoenix to Denver for a layoff or layover to then go to- onto Baltimore. Well, oh my gosh. So, we got stranded in Denver. I'll not go down [inaudible].

Jennie: Oh man.

Erin: But the next morning there's three of us in a car. Some, like, because we hadn't been intending on spending the night there, some in the middle of a winter storm wearing T-shirts and flip flops and shorts.

Jennie: Oh no.

Erin: And we're- it's, like, four in the morning, three in the morning. And we've got this Uber driver who is literally listening to Q Anon podcasts.

Jennie: Oh, that's also fun too.

Erin: Right? And in that case, I mean, we started texting each other and don't say anything about what we do, you know, these are the like, and it was just a flat-out safety issue. So, I wanna acknowledge that too. Like, sometimes it's a flat-out safety issue. It's not that you're shrouding yourself in stigma or you're not a warrior, like, you gotta take care of yourself. So, that's important. But the other piece—totally different story that I relate to that with—is, you know, I've gone through my own evolution on that as well. Like, now to be clear, I started this work working on women's rights advocacy. So, that's where I came from. And then I came to narrow and focus more and more on abortion and repro and repro justice. So, you know, I've been there with, like, "I work in women's health," like I've been there, and a couple years ago I decided I'm just going for it. Like, I work in abortion access and with this feeling that, well, other people should be ashamed, not me, if that's a problem for them. And it's been really interesting to see the reception to it. I mean, I go to graduate school virtually in the middle of rural Mississippi, so I'm exposed to a lot of different types of people. And people aren't- when you're just straight out with who you are, it often works. So sometimes I think the fear is internal.

Jennie: Oh, yeah. And it's mostly mine. Like, the side of the family, I don't see and so there were...I just remember the last time I saw a big group of them was the first time I had gone and saw them in forever. And it was in the summer of 2015, and I was sitting at a table talking and all of a sudden, I was like, oh, is that a MAGA hat? Like, this was, like, when it all felt like it wasn't, like, real, right. Like there aren't actually people that...oh, yeah. It was, it's like, oh, okay. I'm not in Kansas anymore. Like, surprise.

Erin: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yep, I feel you.

Jennie: Okay. So, let's turn to some of the questions that we thought of as topics to talk about. One is one that I have gotten as somebody who is single: when are going to get married? Yeah. I can start with how I handled it, because it was- I just brushed it off as, like, a joke. It was my grandma asking me, and she- my mom's side of the family has a lot of, like, union democrats. And so, I just like real, like, nonchalant was like, grandma, I met this really great guy, but he's a Republican. And she was like, oh, no, no, no, no, no. That's not a good idea.

Erin: That's hilarious. That's so funny. Yeah. So, I actually- I got married for the first time when I was 22 years old, so I did not get much of that. In fact, you know, I was a women's studies major in college, so it was actually the reverse thing, like, why are you getting married?

Jennie: Oh, yeah.

Erin: And that was what I was dealing with. But that marriage ended. I wish it had ended even more quickly than it did, but it was abusive. And so sometimes I've found that when someone asks a question that's not appropriate, just giving them the real answer that they don't want can be really effective too. So, you know, why did it end? Because he was abusive. And that just shuts people down and it's real. I had a boss ask me once why I said I needed a doctor's appointment and, you know, I was gonna have to, we were gonna have to reschedule a meeting for a few hours later. And she asked me why. And I was like, well, I thought in my head instantly, well, if you really wanna know, I'm gonna tell you because then you're gonna realize how inappropriate this is. Yeah. And so, I just responded to her. I said, I have a yeast infection, and that shut her all the way down.

Jennie: Yeah. Like, why would you ask? It's a doctor's appointment, like, full stop.

Erin: Right. And I did. I did. I wasn't making that up. I had a yeast infection, but she didn't wanna have that conversation, so why the hell was she asking?

Jennie: Yeah, exactly. Wild. And I think on a related one is another one that is just a wild question that so many people get is, like, oh, when are guys gonna have kids? Or when are you having your next kid? Or are you gonna have kids? Like, very personal, like, out of the blue conversations that can happen from family or strangers. I mean, that's another Uber one that happens a lot.

Erin: Yeah. If I feel like talking about that with other people, I'll let you know.

Jennie: Yeah. Like, that's a good one to just, like, shut it down.

Erin: Right? Because we just shouldn't invite that into people- like, there's something so culturally ingrained, right? I mean, when we're fighting for abortion access, we're up against some of the strongest cultural expectations of women that they are expected to produce children. That's like the apex of our being. And I'm a mom. I love to be a mom, and I would call it one of the apex pieces of my life, one of them. But that's for me personally, and that's not for everybody. And that's okay. And I think another piece that people need to be aware of is not only is that question rude and putting stereotypes on, a lot of times you're dipping into people's very private pain. Yeah. You know, I realized when I was probably about 37-38, that actually what was happening was that in any given gathering of women my age, I was surrounded by people who were trying to get pregnant and were struggling with it. And it was extremely painful, and it wasn't being talked about very much. And so, I think that's also a piece, like, I think a legitimate response to that too, which would just be ouch.

Jennie: Yeah.

Erin: Like ouch, dude. J ennie: And I feel like I also get, like, as an only child, oh, they didn't want more. And I'm like, again, complicated question. Like, why do you feel like that's okay, like, to dig in? Like maybe they did and couldn't have more or any number of things like, what are you doing?

Erin: Right, right. I'm an only child myself. I have an only child.

Jennie: Yeah.

Erin: Like, it's like, you're not gonna have another, or like, it's like that's just totally not your business. Yeah. Like, do you want me to, well, I stopped using period trackers a few years ago and, but like, do you want me to let you know my menstrual cycle? Like, what are you asking? What conversation are you asking to have here?
Jennie: Yeah.
Erin: Gross.

Jennie: Okay. So, getting from- I mean, this could still also be a personal conversation, but I feel like maybe broader conversation that could come up on- around the table is pronouns and like, "what is the big deal about pronouns? And we don't, in my day, we didn't have this whole big bruhaha around pronouns."

Erin: Great. Good for you. I mean, the thing is, this is about supporting people who are living their reality and living their truth. And so, I find one of the ways to reduce defensiveness in people is through the power of storytelling and really focusing on personal stories. So, you know, I would respond to that, "well, I purposefully choose to identify my pronouns as she/her, because I've found through conversation and just going through life with my trans friends and hearing from others in the community how much it means when people are affirmed for who they really are. And so, that's the example that I try to provide and that's why I do it. And, you know, by shifting it to the personal and why we do it and why we identify. And I think it, that's a piece where it's really, really important for bystanders who are cisgender to speak up and not expect...because I'm picturing a crowded table where, you know, there may be people at the table who are non-binary, who may be trans, who maybe haven't come out to their family who maybe feel like they can't be like, that is creating space. And it's a much lower lift for cisgender people to explain the solidarity of why we're using pronouns. And that creates space where, you know, people at that table who might not feel safe yet know that- have a hope that for safety in the future.

Jennie: Yeah. And it's like a good space to just, like, be modeling good behavior and like giving your pronouns when, when you're, like, meeting somebody or something like that can just be helpful. And it's really just...I have found a lot of the, like, I don't know whether I would call it pushback, but the, like, uncomfortableness or unsureness comes from the, like, unknown. And, like, having it explained a little bit really helps to just take some of that stigma and like, oh, oh, I wasn't quite understanding this correctly. I feel like there's a lot of that as well, and not just the, like, anger and, like, whatever. So, if you can help explain it to people, that also goes a long way.

Erin: Right, right. I love that. It really is. It's empowering people with information and not talking to them like their idiots or dummies or haters. I mean, that's the way to shut someone down and make them dig in deeper into their position.

Jennie: And I guess this next one really kind of goes off the same area is there's so much misinformation floating around abortion, around trans issues. Like what are some of the ways you have found helpful for pushing back around misinformation when you, when you encounter it?

Erin: Yeah, I mean, I think, you know, pointing out that there is an agenda is often really helpful to say, you know, I know that you've, "I'm not surprised that you've heard that there's millions of dollars that are being spent to put message all over TV, radio, and social media." And so, you know, it's out there. So, a) just doing that pointing out-

Jennie: I like that.

Erin: -[inaudible] that message. Yeah. Because it, it also again, verifies like the person is not a bad person. They're just in the middle of a culture that's feeding them these messages and there's actually people who are doing that on a calculated level to try to use it. And that's another piece, like, that...so, so, say you hear an inflammatory message about abortion so, you know that message, whatever it may be, I'm not even gonna give an example because I don't wanna, like, repeat the lies of the opposition. But there are so many examples of that. And you can say, well, there's millions of dollars that are being spent to make that message be repeated. And the agenda of that is banning all abortion. And I wanna tell you and assure you that what you've heard actually, that isn't happening, or actually that's not scientifically possible, or actually that's not how pregnancy works. But really then to pivot to values and go to: I support people in their decisions. Again, focusing on the personal really helps because I found that people are much more likely to listen when you're speaking for yourself instead of saying, you should be this way. Right? Like, I support people in their decisions. I trust someone, you know, no matter what age they may be to get the healthcare they need. And I think that's really important with, you know, I gave an example about abortion, but especially when we're talking about the attacks on trans kids right now, there's a big investment right now. And I also think, again, pointing out that agenda, that the, that what we've seen is that there's a targeted assault that's happening right now on young people who are some of the most vulnerable young people right now who are in the middle of mental health crises, a number of them. And these kinds of messages are only serving to hurt them. And so, you know, I know that it sounds scary, but we've seen blah, blah, blah, and then pivot to the facts.

Jennie: Yeah. I really love validating the "yeah, I'm not surprised you're hearing this because it's everywhere and there's money pushing that agenda." I think that's a really important part that I think I've not always been good about pushing up front when I have some of those conversations. So, thank you. That's something that I will find helpful. I always kind of revert to my role as like trying to be an explainer, but that's really good to have the preface to that conversation.

Erin: Yeah. Yeah. I think it's, like, one of the ways too, because it's just, it helps folks contextualize that it's not just Jennie who's here, who's giving me information that's different from the information that I've heard elsewhere. It's Jennie versus, you know, moms for Liberty or something, like, Leonard Leo, that there's actually, like, Jennie versus billions of dollars' worth of spending on this that, you know, is tied to a broader agenda.

Jennie: And like, once people start to get a feel for that, then they can start to see it in other things. Like, I think with some of that stuff, like I know like my mom has come to me with things where she's seen them and she's like, "Wisconsin is talking about banning, you know, trans athletes and like, I'm hearing the conversation but doesn't feel quite right. Can you like, talk to me about it?" And like, being a place where people can go to get helpful information is also a good place to, like, get them to start to see it, but then also know you can be a resource.

Erin: Right. Right. And I do think that, like, making yourself a safe resource for people to get information. I love that she's coming to you with that. And I just have to say like, that's another thing I really find that I, again, like, I'm a broken record, but I like to bring it back to where I sit because it's easier for people to respond to that because then I'm not saying "you should think this." You know, when we're talking about equality and access to sports, I mean, I, I can and will say about how important it is that everyone is accepted and included and like, what a big difference that makes for kids. You know, right now my daughter just started playing basketball at school and she's so lit up to be able to be part of the team. I mean, it means everything to her. I think people, like, forget that-

Jennie: Oh yeah.

Erin: -when they're older, what a huge deal. It's to be able to be with your peers. But I also speak from the personal on that. And you know, like I, anyone who knows me super well knows that running is one of my favorite things to do. I'm, like, arch competitive with myself. Like, I write down my times every day, whatever. So, I'm very invested in the fact that there's this hateful narrative right now that cisgender women athletes are somehow going to be hurt by including everyone in sports. Because I'm like, okay, that's bullshit. I've actually won a 5K before against the men. Like, stop, like, you're actually infantilizing me-

Jennie: Yeah.

Erin: -with this argument and I don't like it. So, like, just helping people see, you know, how you connect to it gives them space for them to start thinking about whatever way they might connect to it. Jennie: And I really like the, like, not telling people what to think, but, like, giving them information like that is very much how I was raised. And like, I could definitely see the difference between me and, like, friends whose parents were like, no, this is wrong, or like this. And like that was as far as they could go. But like, I remember coming home, I went to a Catholic school, K through eight, you probably have maybe heard the story before. And I had a friend who was like, Hey, do you wanna come to Madison and save babies with me? And I was like, yeah, no, like, let's go save babies. And going home and my mom like sitting me down and being like, okay, well let's talk about it. Like, have you thought about X, Y or Z or what about a person who's in this situation or what about this? And just, like, had a open...didn't tell me what to think, just gave me more information and was like, if you still want to go, you can go. And obviously I was- did not go. But, like, just gave me the information to think more fully about being in that situation and like what it would mean. And that changed, I mean, everything, right?

Erin: Yeah. And I really, I love that story, Jennie, and I'm just thinking about "if you still want to go, you can go." Like she gave you the trust and respect to work it out for yourself. And that's so much of what this is about, like giving people the trust and respect to keep moving on their journey.

Jennie: Okay. So, another topic we were thinking of, and it's still related to all of this, is like starting to see politicians talking about this compromise on abortion, right? That we should compromise. We can all compromise at 15 weeks, right? Like it's just no big deal. We're just like, fine. Right there. Done.

Erin: Yeah. Well, I gave a little laugh of glee because there's good news here. Like, we really don't need to be defensive about this. The reality is that nobody likes this so-called framework that the anti-abortion movement is trying to sell. We even- we've seen every single time abortion goes to the ballot box, it wins. So, my point is there's no need to be like arch defensive about this because it's actually not working, including with Republicans. So, just wanted to say that at the outset.

Jennie: Yes.

Erin: But to get more direct, I mean, when folks start talking about abortion bans based on a certain number of weeks of pregnancy, it's best not to try to have that fight and instead to talk about abortion bans. And regardless of the time- that that's actually just a new abortion ban that we don't have right now, and abortion is already extremely difficult to access right now, and so, you know, gonna that point, and this would only make matters worse.

Jennie: I also really liked—I had Diane Horvath on the podcast to talk about abortion later in pregnancy. And I really loved- she said, at what point in a pregnancy does the state have more knowledge and authority over your body and what you need than you and your doctor? And like, that was such a great way to put it. Like, yeah, like at what point does the state know more than me and my doctor to make these decisions? Like, and I feel like that was a really good frame.

Erin: Yeah. Never. And that's another piece that to go to the personal knowing that I, you know, I, Erin Matson, like, the position I have may be different than the person who's asking me this question. But when I share my position proudly and without any shame that, you know, to Diane's question, at what point does the state, is the state better equipped? Never, I don't believe that the state should be in the business of restricting when someone can get access to abortion. I know that things can change at any time, and that you could never write a law that would understand what circumstances someone may face. I trust people to do what's best for themselves.

Jennie: Yeah, absolutely. So, I think tha, like, another bucket of things you run into is people who are, like, in the process of, like, getting fully there and, but, like, are still struggling with the way they talk about it and like ways to gently bring people further along. And I think one of those things that you often hear is like, "I mean, I support abortion, but like, I would never have one." Or like, "no one wants an abortion." I think those are ones that you see for people who are like, moving in the right direction, but like not completely there yet. Like, what is a good way to have that conversation? To pull them along and talk about, like, maybe stigma or something?

Erin: Yeah, I mean, let's, let's take them point by point. So there's that first one of, I would never had an have an abortion, but I support, like, first of all, I think it's really important because that is someone who's likely on their journey to affirm the fact, like, thank you so much for understanding that people need to be able to make their own decisions. Like even with your own feelings for yourself, that you have that respect of other people. Like that's a really beautiful thing and I just wanna see that and honor that and validate, you know, like people respond to positive affirmation and, and so like just coming at someone being like, that's wrong. Like, you're actually making it more likely that they're gonna go and decide that the anti-abortion position better reflects them because they're being applauded for what they said. And then the other piece is just kind of opening the door. I mean, in the abstract, there are a lot of people who don't ever wanna have abortions, and that's okay. That's fully understandable.

Jennie: Absolutely.

Erin: And I think the thing that I would say to that person is like, in addition to like, thank you so much for understanding. If something ever changes and you do find yourself in the position where you need to have an abortion, just know that you can always reach out to me, and I'll hold your hand or I'll do show up for you however you want me to. Like, just making it clear to them that like, I'm here for you.

Jennie: Yeah, yeah.

Erin: And that also introduces the idea of like, hmm, interesting, interesting, something might happen that might...because that's often what happens, like abortion is in its purest form, an unplanned event. Or something that people don't anticipate needing the overwhelming majority of the time. So, that's what it is.

Jennie: Yeah. I, again, I really like that. It is really important to like, “yeah, no, that's so great to have you in, in the fight and, like, be really supportive.” Yeah. It's definitely like...I think when I was talking about this with the colleague, like the, like getting to the, like the stigma part is like talk, taking the like 205 class versus the like 101 of like, you're yes. Like you're there. Like, thank you for being supportive and then later in the journey can deal with some of the other things that, like, the stigma around it that is just, like, everybody has absorbed some of that you need to like make the effort to, like, get rid of. And that's like an advanced level class.

Erin: Yeah, exactly. And then just responding. I mean, there's so many other common forms of stigma that come out that abortion should be rare. And you can say like, well, I honestly just think abortion needs to happen as much as it needs to happen because I want people to be comfortable in their lives and bodies, right? Like, I don't like my steak rare—I don't even eat steak for that matter—but like, you know what I mean, like, you can challenge it, but in a way that's not, you know, coming at the person. Or, you know, "it's always sad when someone has an abortion." I mean, you can directly challenge that with facts. Like, the overwhelming majority of women who've had abortions reported relief about it, that was what they felt about it. And yeah, that might be true, but that's...in the vast majority of cases, that's not the case. And there are people who, you know, are celebrating after they have an abortion, that's okay too.

Jennie: Okay. I think, like, the last bucket of questions, this is maybe like a bit of a two-part one is like, because people know what's what I do, or you do, I'm sure you get this one a lot. Like, how can I help? And so, I think there's like the, like, completely open, like what, what can I do to be helpful? And then, I think there's also a part where people are like talking about things they want to do to be helpful that are maybe not as helpful, whether it's the, like, reinventing an abortion fund in an unhelpful way when abortion funds already exist or things like that. So, I guess the two-part, like, how can people help and how to maybe, like, redirect somebody that's eager to help, but in ways that maybe aren't the most helpful.

Erin: Right. And I think it's actually the same answer. Like, I do think abortion funds are just these amazing organizations in our country. I'm so inspired by abortion funds because I mean, they're grassroots. They're, like, working in every single state in this country. They're leading the way, not just on giving people access to what they need with abortion, but really leading a conversation about mutual aid. They're building power. I mean, there's so many cool things. So, I think that is, like, the number one thing to point people toward is like, there's an abortion fund, you know, in this state or in this community, really encourage you to reach out to them and, you know, learn more about them the ways you can engage, you can give money, you can look more on their website and see if they're looking for volunteers right now. Sometimes they're really backed up right now and don't have time to chat with people right away because they're so busy meeting the needs of callers and patients. But, you know, check them out. They might have an event or a fundraiser or a party or something you could attend to meet other like-minded people. So, that's always one thing. I think another piece too is just telling people to be abortion out loud, for lack of a better word. Like, you know, get a rePROs Fight Back podcast sticker and put it on your car. Like, just letting people know that you're an ally is actually a really big deal. It's something that I'm conscious of now that my daughter is 10, I'm like, I wanna start wearing more rainbow shirts, et cetera, because I know her friends are watching and, like, I want them to see that more often, right? And so, things like that, like just even being visible, like, putting up a sign in your yard...oh my gosh, when I was just home for the in-laws in Georgia over Thanksgiving, like, the number of signs up right now are just awesome. There's apparently a group, by the way, Jennie, of grandmothers in Atlanta who are so mad. So, there's these green signs everywhere in Georgia that say, "Regulate Guns, Not Women." And I'm like, what is? And it's like, it's so awesome. Jennie: I love it.

Erin: So that's like, like go and they, you can order these signs, like put up a sign in your yard, like, be out front because you create space for other people to start having the conversation too. Jennie: And, like, marrying the two—a lot of abortion funds have really amazing T-shirts. I feel like I've talked about this a lot because I have a wide collection. A lot of them are on Bonfire, I think there's some on TeePublic, but, like, search them out and like the number of compliments I get on like any one of my abortion t-shirts when I'm wearing them out and about is delightful. And you're fighting stigma, shouting abortion, and supporting an abortion fund at the same time. So, there’s, like, lots of fun ways that you can do all of it at once.

Erin: Right, right. Like, I'll wear my "Bans Off Our Bodies" at Target and then I'll see neighbors and it means something, right? That they see that. So, I agree.

Jennie: Yeah, absolutely. Well, Erin, thank you so much for doing this. It was delightful to get to talk to you about how to deal with some of these kind of awkward conversations sometimes over the holidays.

Erin: Yeah, this was so great. Thank you, Jennie, and wishing everyone who's listening good holidays and productive conversations.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you joined my conversation with Erin. I hope it's helpful if you encounter any of these questions. And yeah, like I said, always feel free to reach out. You can always email me at jennie@reprosfightback.com and you know, if you find an episode helpful or you love an episode, make sure to share it with the people in your life who think it, you also think it would be helpful forIt helps other people find the podcast, which is always great and gets them to learn more about these topics and hopefully more people who can talk about these issues. So, with that, I will see y'all next week. Bye! [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!