United States v. Skrmetti and the Future of Trans Rights

A new Supreme Court case, United States v. Skrmetti, will challenge Tennessee’s Senate Bill 1, which prohibits gender-affirming care for transgender minors. Katelyn Burns, columnist for MSNBC, first ever openly trans Capitol Hill Reporter, co-host of the podcast Cancel Me Daddy, and co-founder of the publication the Flytrap, sits down to talk with us about this case and what realities the trans community will face under the new administration.  

Tennessee’s law would ban best practice medical care for trans youth up to 18, require youth being treated to cease care within nine months of the law’s effect, and allow for private right of action against medical providers providing gender-affirming care. This specific case is aimed toward transgender minors but will be used as an entry point to target adult care, too. This is on top of extremely likely increases to attacks to transgender folks’ health and rights under the incoming Trump administration, bolstered already by harmful cabinet nominees.

Links from this episode

Katelyn Burns on X
The Flytrap
Cancel Me Daddy
More information on United States v. Skrmetti

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Jennie: Hi rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. I hope everybody had a wonderful Thanksgiving. I am recording this before Thanksgiving, so not a lot to say about mine. I am actually planning to take that whole week off, so I am very excited to take some time and step away from all of the work related things and try to not stress about what is gonna happen in January and just take some time, take some restorative time. It's one of those I need to take some days off before the end of the year, so I'm really looking forward to having some time to, I don't know, maybe bridge the Great British Baking Show. Yes, that is where I am on my stress that I am, I need to watch the Great British Baking Show. I need to just have some quiet time, maybe do some fun reading, do some baking. I haven't really done much in quite a while just with some travel and some other, you know, not gonna be around very much during the week type thing. So, I haven't been doing as much baking, so I am planning to do some baking next week or last week--when I'm recording this it's next week, the week of Thanksgiving. Maybe make some cookies in sympathy of not being able to go to my big, my family's big Christmas cookie day. I think I've talked about this before, but I, it's one of those things I really miss being away from my family, being in Washington DC and they're all in Wisconsin. So my mom's side of the family, most of the aunts and a lot of the cousins get together on the Saturday after Thanksgiving to bake Christmas cookies and, like, a literal shit ton of Christmas cookies, so many cookies, and then everybody takes some home and it's so much fun to get to spend time with family and making cookies. And it's just, I don't know, it's a lot of fun and I am always sad when I can't go, but Thanksgiving is just one of those holidays that, I don't know, it's such a quick turnaround. I would rather go home for longer at Christmas than try to do Thanksgiving. It just doesn't feel as restful as it could be. And so, I am a big fan of just staying here instead of traveling. So, but that means I don't get to go to the big cookie thing. But my mom usually sends me a care package with some of the Christmas cookies in it, so that is exciting. I'll look forward to that, but I'll make some of my own this year. I don't know what, but I have a whole week to figure it out. Yeah, so again, since I'm recording this so far in advance, I don't know what else I have to talk about, but I am very excited for this week's episode when this is coming out. It is the day before oral arguments in the Skrmetti case about gender affirming care for young people. It's a really huge case and run the Supreme Court and I'm worried y'all, but I couldn't think of a better person to talk about it with me than Katelyn Burns. She is a columnist with MSNBC. She hosts the amazing podcast Cancel Me Daddy. And she is one of the new co-owners of the great new blog called The Flytrap. And y'all, you should definitely check it out and support it if you can. They have so much great writing, so many great people there. And yeah, I really enjoyed it since it has started. It is brand new. It just started I think on Election Day, if I remember correctly. So definitely worth checking out. But also for sure, make sure to check out Katelyn's writing at MSNBC and also Cancel Me Daddy podcast. I'm a huge, huge fan. Okay, with that, let's go to my conversation with Katelyn.

Jennie: Hi, Katelyn, thank you so much for being here today.

Katelyn: Yeah, thanks for having me on. It's been a minute.

Jennie: I know, and you have so much going on and I'm gonna let you do that when you introduce yourself. But y'all, I am so excited about all the things that Katelyn is working on right now. So Katelyn, would you like to introduce yourself?

Katelyn: Oh God. Where do I start? Katelyn Burns most commonly known as a columnist for MSNBC. I was previously the first ever openly trans Capitol Hill reporter, and recently me and nine other amazing writers slash artists slash creators started a new publication called The Flytrap, which is our sort of collective cooperatively-owned feminist answer to, like, the death of Jezebel. I know Jezebel's still around, but like it's not quite the same. And we have revamped my podcast Cancel Me Daddy with new host, new co-host Christine Grimaldi. So, very excited about that as well.

Jennie: I was so excited for the podcast coming back and I never miss an episode. I love it so much. I was so excited to be part of the- my brain is like, nope, words aren't gonna come...the support for the original launch of the Flytrap. So, super excited.

Katelyn: The Kickstarter.

Jennie: Kickstarter. Thank you. It was like not coming at all. So everybody, you should definitely check out the fly trip. It has had great pieces and is definitely worth checking out.

Katelyn: Yeah, Christine's piece this week, “The Red Mass Went Up My Ass.” I edited it and Tina Vasquez was the copy editor on it, but it's a fantastic piece. There is a paywall, but it is definitely worth the price of subscribing.

Jennie: I'm excited. It is in my inbox. I have not had a chance to read it. Yesterday was a little chaotic, but I will hopefully get to it today.

Katelyn: Yeah. [chuckles]

Jennie: Okay. I guess that's like the good news portion of our conversation.

Katelyn: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Let's turn to this episode is coming out the day before the Skrmetti case is argued in front of SCOTUS. So, let's talk about this case and what's at stake.

Katelyn: Yeah, so this case is about gender affirming care for youth bans. One second here. My brain has gone blank. I forget which state it's about.

Jennie: Tennessee.

Katelyn: Tennessee, yes, thank you. It's about Tennessee's gender affirming care ban where I mean all of all of these bills are exactly the same. It's cookie cutter legislation. It's very similar to-

Jennie: Yeah.

Katelyn: -Like, abortion restrictions and abortion bans. They pass along the same bill language and pass it in every state. So, forgive me for not, not remembering which state this one was particularly about, but it was, you know, it's all the same.

Jennie: And start with young people, right?

Katelyn: Yeah. They're attacking young people because they feel it's low hanging fruit and once they get this passed, they're gonna come for adult care. You're already seeing that in Florida where they passed a youth gender affirming care ban and then immediately started imposing restrictions on adults. I mean, it's the same playbook as the repro field. So, they're just gonna keep escalating and escalating and escalating, and even if the court tells 'em to stop, they're gonna continue to try to get what they want further down the road because they play the long game and if a court stops them, they'll wait for the court to change. So, I do not have high hopes for this case, to be honest with you. One exciting thing about the case is that we actually have a trans person arguing the trans side of the case. It's Chase Strangio from the ACLU, who I couldn't think of a better person to argue the case.

Jennie: I don't know why I had it in my head that he had already argued in front of the Supreme Court. So then, when I started seeing that he was doing it, I was, like, as the first, I was like, wait, I thought that already happened.

Katelyn: He was second desk, I believe for that one.

Jennie: Oh, okay. So, I wasn't totally making things up.

Katelyn: Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So, Chase is gonna be arguing the case. Very capable lawyer, very experienced. I can't think of a better person. I couldn't think of another person I would rather have arguing for trans rights and for the Supreme Court. But, you know, the math is not mathing on this one, unfortunately to me.

Jennie: Yeah, I am likewise very worried about what's gonna happen.

Katelyn: I guess there is very slight reason to hope in that there are five votes that voted in favor of LGBT rights in Bostock compared to now, but we need that entire coalition to hold. I just don't see it. I think that the conservatives on the court can very easily just be like, "gender affirming care is an abortion procedure even though it is clearly not, but they'll look at it like a form of birth control, which they have been hostile to. Like, there's so many other ways into the sort of legal hearts of these conservative justices that I just am kind of doomer around it all.

Jennie: And that's, like, a very reasonable real-world response, right? Like, pinning your hopes on a couple of the conservative justices feels, I don't know what not, foolish feels like the wrong word, but just I have a hard time hoping.

Katelyn: And it's easy to forget too that the youth gender affirming care is a controversial topic in a lot of liberal circles too. So, are we gonna, the other thing I'm keeping an eye on is, are we gonna see all of the liberal justices also stand up for trans people, or are they gonna show softness on this? I remember reporting on Bostock, I was there for oral arguments and there were some skeptical questions from, you know, Kagan, not to name names [laughs]. So, I'm keeping an eye on her as well to see how this goes. I think if any of the liberals join a conservative majority in upholding this law, I think it's kind of a disaster for trans people. I think you're gonna see an even bigger push, like, they're gonna smell blood in the water, you're gonna start to see adult care bans really getting pushed and that's just on the court [laughs], like...

Jennie: Yeah, I really felt that way, like, with the loss of Roe, it just became open season on all of these protected rights. And so, I just see this as a continuation of that.

Katelyn: Yeah. In a lot of ways, I'm kind of more doomer on trans care than I am even on abortion care, even though abortion care is, like, not great at all. But there have been some successes with state referendums that have managed to carve out some protections for some abortion care that I am not at all confident that trans people would win, like, a similar type of election in those same states, so.

Jennie: That's fair. I feel like that is probably true.

Katelyn: Yeah. I'm paid to have opinions and predictions on what happens next, and I don't even want to think about it. [laughs]

Jennie: Honestly, that's where I've been for, like, this next part of the conversation we're thinking about is, like, the next administration, like-

Katelyn: Yeah.

Jennie: -thinking through all of the many, many things that I care about that are going to be impacted, like, it's really hard to think through all of it and all of the ways people are gonna be harmed.

Katelyn: Well, I keep having flashbacks to the first Trump administration

Jennie: Ugh, yes.

Katelyn: When I was living in DC and I was covering the everyday actions of the administrative state and how horrible it was, it literally burnt me out. Like, I lasted until Trump lost in 2020 and I have been burnt out ever since. Like, in a lot of ways, I'm still burnt out. I do not think I could go back to the daily reporting grind that I had back then. And I just think that people aren't ready for this because the amount of stuff that they pushed in the first Trump administration when they didn't have a mandate on trans rights compared to now where they think they won an election because of their stance on trans rights, it is going to get ugly very quickly. And you're already seeing it in the House. I don't know if you wanna go there.

Jennie: Yeah, I mean...this is utterly unsurprising and horrifying at the same time. Like, as soon as Sarah McBride was elected.

Katelyn: Yeah.

Jennie: Like, I had the, like, minute of excitement and then thought about the colleagues that she's gonna have to deal with and my heart hurt.

Katelyn: Yeah. So, for those who maybe haven't heard about this Nancy Mace, who is allegedly a pro-LGBT Republican...obviously not...is pushing really hard for rules that would basically ban trans people from using the Capitol Hill bathroom in accordance to their gender identity. This one hits home for me as somebody who used to be a Capitol Hill reporter and has taken many, you know, many bathroom breaks on the Hill in the women's room. I remember one time it was on the day that Justice Kennedy resigned, and something just really devastating happened in my personal life that day. And I was in the women's room, like, sitting on the toilet sobbing, and this woman in the stall next to me said, don't worry honey, we'll defeat whoever they nominate next time [laughs]. And I'm like, no, I'm, I'm, I'm not crying over the Supreme Court [laughs]. But yeah, so you have Nancy, sorry, sidetracked there. But you have Nancy Mace who's like on this all out push to basically target Sarah McBride. And let's not forget, it's not just McBride, it's all of the aides on Capitol Hill, including Republican aides who are trans. Like, they don't want us to know about that. But there are quite a few stealthy trans people who are aides for Republicans who would have to out themselves under these rules as well. Like, if I ever went back and reported on Capitol Hill, like, the rule would require me to use the men's room. I don't even know where the men's rooms are on the Hill [laughs]. And I knew this was coming as well. I wrote about it 'cause I was on the MSNBC live blog on election day and the day after, and I wrote about it the day after. And I was like, there's a lot of ways that they could potentially, like, screw with McBride and her gender identity. Like the bathroom is just the start of it. Like, when they take votes, they say Mr. or Mrs. or Ms., like, I forget who the name of the role, but it's the person who records the vote will say, you know, Ms. McBride and she'll say yay or nay. They could potentially put in place rules that require her to be addressed as Mr. like, there's all kinds of things that they could potentially do besides the bathroom thing.

Jennie: Yeah.

Katelyn: And I don't know what Democrats can do. I think they have the votes to pass anything they want on these rules. Like, Speaker Johnson said he'll bring it up for a vote and he wouldn't say that if he didn't know that he had the votes. So, we'll have to see in January where this goes. And I have no faith at all that the Democrats will be able to spin this into the overplayed hand that I think it is.

Jennie: It just makes them seem small and petty to me. But like-

Katelyn: Yeah.

Jennie: I don't know, I just really feel for Sarah and what she is gonna have to be dealing with on a day-to-day basis. And I have to say, like, her reaction to this so far is so much more gracious than I could ever imagine being in her shoes.

Katelyn: [Laughs] Yeah. I don't know that I agree with her approach on this actually, 'cause she knows she's doing the whole, “I was elected here to solve real problems, not this.” And I'm like, well, they're going to humiliate you regardless, and do you really want your constituents, like, seeing you, like, take the hit on that? Like, I think there's value in defending yourself. I think there's value in Democrats defending a colleague. And I think trans constituents in particular would need to see at least some semblance of defense being played here. We tried the silent high road with a Harris campaign. I mean, Harris didn't even mention trans people. And you have just hundreds of pundits now blaming her election loss on trans people. Does the high road work anymore? I'm not sure. I think you need to be loud and make some sort of argument. Like, even if you are sticking with the, "we're here to solve real problems and not deal with these culture issues," you still need to be like making the rounds to say that to your constituents. And if they don't hear it from you, they're just going to absorb the message from the other side, which is quote unquote "Sarah McBride is a man, she should be in the men's room." And they go, oh, that makes sense. Okay. Yeah. And if there's no counterbalance to that, there's only one message out there.

Jennie: Yeah. I would really like to see her colleagues being loud in their defense of her. I don't know that we've seen that yet.

Katelyn: She asked them not to.

Jennie: I saw that.

Katelyn: Not to go in the offense about it. And I'm like, I don't know if I would make that same call.

Jennie: Okay.

Katelyn: And I love Sarah to death. Like well there's, I have a ton of respect for her. I hope this works for her. I just disagree with the strategy. I wouldn't say that Sarah and I are friends, but we're, like, as close as you can get to being friends while also having just a strictly professional relationship [laughs].

Jennie: Right. Yes.

Katelyn: If that makes sense.

Jennie: Absolutely.

Katelyn: We've never really hung out outside of work situations or I wrote a profile of her where we got coffee one time, but that was like me interviewing her [laughs].

Jennie: Yes. Okay. So I think the other thing I'm starting to also think about is all the ways we're gonna see just attacks on trans rights, but also just like gender as well. We've been seeing that bubbling up in the global space a lot and I think it's really primed to, like, spread much further now.

Katelyn: Yeah. I mean if you look at who Trump is nominating for his cabinet, it seems like his first demand is that you be credibly accused of sexual assault. I think there's definitely room for attacks on that front, especially as it relates to trans people 'cause you say you wanna protect women, but here you are putting Matt Gaetz as the attorney general and also covering up his house ethics complaint about statutory rape. Like, I know pointing out conservative hypocrisy, like, doesn't really work, but it's really frustrating. Yeah. And I think that, and I've had this message on your podcast before, but the thing that we all have to remember is that they're, they're all attacking us in the same way. So, it doesn't matter if they're attacking me, it doesn't matter if they're attacking you. It doesn't matter if they're attacking an 18-year-old pregnant girl from Texas. It's the same vector, it's the same attacks and we need to stick together.

Jennie: Agree. Like, I think that is such an important point of, like, they're trying to peel us off from each other by saying, you know, this isn't my fight. And I think more than ever in this, in this new version of the Trump administration that we're gonna see, we need to really lock arms and, and show up and show up for each other. And, and sometimes, like, I think we've talked about this before, like the trans community is often very good about showing up for abortion rights but the repro community isn't always as good about showing up when there are attacks on trans rights. And we need to be there.

Katelyn: I'd love to see people turn out at the Supreme Court for oral arguments.

Jennie: I hope so.

Katelyn: I don't know that they will, I was trying to get a place to hire me to go write about and cover the oral arguments, but so far, I've been unsuccessful.

Jennie: Which again, shocking. And, but also not.

Katelyn: No.

Jennie: Like, I'm not ready for, you know, we talked about the burnout from the first version of the, of the Trump administration, like already having like meetings and coalitions and stuff and giving all of these flashbacks to all off the, like, game planning and having to think through all of the various ways and the fast and furious ways that all of these things were attacked and trying to keep up. And I'm already, like, I'm tired.

Katelyn: What, you mean to tell me you're not ready for Roger Severino to come back into government? [laughs]

Jennie: I kept feeling like before the election being, like, I can't do this again. I can't, I can't, like we've never had a chance to recover. Between the pandemic, the loss of Roe, it's just been like this constant emotional and, like, the burnout. It just never went away. And like now it's gonna escalate again so much. And the thought of doing it again makes me tired, but I feel somehow, I don't know how this happened, like, before the election, I was definitely like, I can't do this again. Like, I just physically do not think I can. But somehow, I have found in the last, like, week: it's gonna be hard but I'm not leaving.

Katelyn: You're like Wolf of Wall Street. "I'm not fucking leaving!" [laughs]

Jennie: Ugh. Yeah, just, like, thinking through, I mean, we started this podcast because of trying to keep people informed of this nonstop churn of policies that were constantly coming out. And it was so hard to keep up in the first Trump administration and we're gonna have to do it again.

Katelyn: Yeah, like, the day before we recorded this episode, Trump announced he's appointing, like, the guy from the Department of Health of Florida who is a really scary guy, especially on trans rights, but also abortion care in that he is very connected with the larger, far right global movement. Like, this guy has coordinated with British TERFs to launder conservative talking points into all kinds of international publications. They do, like, fake health analysis that relies on made up data and he's gonna be, I think I read Assistant Secretary of Health, which is not good and very scary for all of us, but this is what we have. We do not have the courts, we do not have the White House, we do not have Congress, and we're just gonna have to find ways to resist.

Jennie: Yeah. And this is one of those things that I also think, you know, as we're hearing the abortion conversation around Comstock, like, I keep trying to be that, like, little bird of like, but also it's not gonna stop at abortion, right?

Katelyn: No.

Jennie: Abortion may be the one of the things explicitly listed in Comstock, but don't think they're not gonna try to expand it to gender affirming care and other rights is what... [Cinder, Jennie’s cat, jumps on table] Buddy. Cinder has to be a part.

Katelyn: There's the cat. [chuckles] Yeah. I think they're already talking about coming for birth control, which, you know, the smart centrist neoliberal pundits said, no, no, they won't do that. And they're already wrong.

Jennie: Ugh.

Katelyn: Yeah.

Jennie: Just like they were not coming for Roe, Roe wasn't gonna go down. It's the reliving of all of these conversations again.

Katelyn: I wish I had better answers for you .

Jennie: I wish I had better answers for you too. Like, I just...

Katelyn: This is definitely our darkest episode we've done so far.

Jennie: I know. Which honestly, Katelyn, I feel like is saying something.

Katelyn: I told you long ago, they don't call me for good news. [laughs]

Jennie: [Laughs] I do feel like I get to be Debbie Downer when people are like, oh, tell me what you're working on. And I'm like, well...

Katelyn: Yeah. It's scary times. It's scary to watch Democrats struggling to respond to all of this. I mean, they did not lose by much, I think the Senate, it was always gonna be a tough lift for them to keep the Senate. I think they picked up seats in the House and they lost the election by a couple hundred thousand votes in like three states. So yeah. It was a very, very close election. I don't think they need to tear out the roots of the tree. They don't need to throw the baby out with the bathwater. Like, some of them want to. I don't think trans people lost the election, which I keep coming back to.

Jennie: No. And I am really worried about that. The way that it seems to be keeps coming up as the thing we need to talk about. And...c'mon.

Katelyn: I mean, Trump ran $215 million worth of anti-trans ads. And Harris didn't mention trans people once, like I don't think she said the word trans through her whole election. If she did, it was once or twice she answered, like, two questions from NBC and Fox about trans people in the most milquetoast mealy-mouth way possible. The Democrats just didn't put up a fight back. Like, I don't know how you can say that that lost the election. If anything, it was your lack of response or being scared of the issue, I think is probably the bigger problem is what caused whatever public reaction I guess you can say to those ads. Like, you can't just let those things linger without a response. I don't know. I don't know what to say.

Jennie: Yeah, that's kind how I feel right now is like...really at a loss. And people keep asking about where I'm at, like, do I have hope? And I think where I've come down is I have, I have hope. I have hope because I have to have hope because otherwise what am I doing? Like, I could do other things with my time that would not burn me out and be so emotionally draining if I honestly thought that we couldn't win and that we wouldn't get there. And, and I know people are gonna be harmed in the meantime. And that is...it's so devastating.

Katelyn: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: I want to win now, but I have to keep fighting because I know, I know that we will get to the future we want with bodily autonomy for everybody, but it's not an immediate win. And that to me is devastating.

Katelyn: To bring this back to the Supreme Court case, if the conservatives do rule against trans kids, they're going to cite Dobbs. Like, that will be the first citation at the top. And I don't know...I don't know how else to say it other than like we, we are all fighting the same fight. And that is the particularly frustrating part about watching the Democrats flounder on this. Like, Trump ran $215 million of anti-trans ads and there's nothing stopping Harris from taking that and being, like, they're trying to do to trans people what they did to abortion. Let me tell you about abortion. And that was their issue, right? Like, that was their bread and butter issue. It's such an easy pivot for them to just link the two issues and people would be like, oh yeah. Like, why is the government getting all up in their business about this stuff? Like, do we really need government genital inspectors so my child can play middle school volleyball? Like...

Jennie: Yeah.

Katelyn: There's so many ways to fight back against the message that they had and there was just no fight back whatsoever. And I would love for Democrats to realize that issues do not exist in a silo. Abortion is a kitchen table issue. If you're pregnant and need an abortion. Losing gender affirming care is a kitchen table issue, an economic issue for me, like, figuring out how else to get the hormones that I need to survive-

Jennie: Seriously.

Katelyn: -is an economic issue for me. Like, underemployment of trans people is an economic issue. Like, there is nothing in the trans issues argument or the repro issues that isn't an economic kitchen table issue for the people affected, but they seem to, like, silo everybody. They're like, "oh well this will upset LGBT groups" and "oh this will upset repro groups." And it's like, well, why don't you get everybody in those groups together and figure out a strategy, why don't we, you know, you call yourselves politicians, why don't you do politics? I know that's hard [laughs], I know that might threaten some consultant paychecks, but at some point you have to make an argument. Sorry, I am very, very Debbie Downer right now. [laughs] If I don't laugh I would cry. So, I prefer to laugh.

Jennie: Honestly. It's hard to be anywhere else at the moment. So, let's, like, not talk about the terrible, let's talk about what people can do. What can the audience do to get involved in these issues right now?

Katelyn: I think the first step is finding smart trans people to learn from. I think that a lot of people who are not trans don't quite know where to start or they're afraid of leading somebody down the wrong path or they maybe aren't confident to confront somebody who is very confidently transphobic. And I think that the first step is finding smart trans people to learn from and just listen. But also I would say, like, when you get to a point where you feel like you have a good grasp on this stuff, like, don't be afraid to say something. If you have a friend who, you know, you're out at the bar and they make a comment about trans women, like, don't be afraid to be, like, hey, like, that's not so cool. I mean I think we need more of that. I don't necessarily see a lot of value in engaging online anymore. I think it's person to person interactions is gonna have the most value. I would certainly say find, like, trans protests, protests pertaining to trans issues in your local city 'cause there will be some during the second Trump administration. Find those and attend them. You don't have to say or do anything, but just being there goes such a long way. Like, I can't tell you how much a well-attended protest is a comfort to trans people. Having attended a lot of trans-related protests in the first Trump administration, it was really demoralizing to look around and see only trans people 'cause the message that I got from it is, oh, nobody is with us and we are very small [laughs]. And you're seeing it now. We are not a constituency that even the Democrats value 'cause we are so small, we're less than 1% of the population. Even though we voted for Democrats by, like, 70%, we were one of the most reliable constituencies that the Democrats have. We're just so small that they don't see us as worth keeping. I would say those things in particular, yeah.

Jennie: Showing up makes such a huge difference. I remember going to some of those protests, particularly the ones at the White House and there really, there weren't that many people there. And also just, like, following people on social, like, making sure that you are listening to the trans voices and what they're asking for. Like, there have been, if you've moved to Bluesky, like there's a lot of good starter packs to like check out to make sure you're hearing from those voices. I have found that really important for to myself over the years, like following Katelyn for a long time, but also following a lot of other trans people to be hearing those conversations because they're so important.

Katelyn: Yeah, I would say, like, Gillian Branstetter at the ACLU is a good follow. Erin Reed does a really good job just tracking the most minute anti-trans movements out there. Like, she's kind of stepped into the role that I had in the first Trump administration and I hope she doesn't burn herself out. That's something I've been talking to her about. There's a bunch of good folks over there. I will say that one cause for hope that I have is...you probably heard my cat jump in there...one cause for hope I have is actually blue. The formation of Bluesky and how it's taken off. It's a site that does not have an algorithm, it doesn't throttle links. So, you genuinely have to be interesting to have your stuff shared, which is how Twitter used to be kind of back in the day. It's also a platform that trans people were on very early and helped form. So, if you like the vibe over there or if you like some of the tools that they have for controlling your own interactions, you can probably thank a trans person for those ideas. I will say that when Bluesky was first becoming a thing and they were still doing invite onlys, all of my trans friends wanted to get off of Twitter because that was when Elon Musk came in and banned the word cis and said it was a slur. So, like, that one interaction led so many trans people to leave the site. Like, I lost so many-

Jennie: God, I forgot about that.

Katelyn: -followers over the last couple years on Twitter because of how increasingly toxic it became. So...

Jennie: Well, and again, you could see like the algorithm being throttle, like, I interact with your stuff a lot. Yeah. And you, like, disappeared for so long where I would maybe see a post or something, like, I would have to specifically go to your page to see your things.

Katelyn: I eventually just stopped posting there. Like, I'd go whole weekends without even visiting Twitter.

Jennie: Yeah.

Katelyn: And unfortunately, I do have the old social media addiction back now that I'm on Bluesky.

Jennie: Well at least it's a better place.

Katelyn: But I do think it's a place that we can organize and have real conversations. You know, it's really nice to- 'cause I am a larger account. I have been for a long time. I get a lot of trolls and what always ended up happening was I would block somebody on Twitter, but I have 70,000- I had, well I don't anymore, but I had 70,000 followers who all wanted to interact with that one guy that I blocked. And with the nuclear block at Blue Sky now somebody can make a little comment and I can block them and they disappear outta my mentions and nobody else will see them. So...

Jennie: That's great.

Katelyn: It's really nice for people like me to not have to deal with the follow up, follow out of, like, somebody being in, you know, a dickhead in my mentions. But it does give me hope for going forward that we don't necessarily have to do our online organizing on the fascist diamond mine [inaudible] website.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah. rePROs has finally moved over to Blue Sky. We're still on Twitter, but I think we're going to be severely cutting back, like, just probably sharing the episodes type thing and not doing other engagement there as much.

Katelyn: That's where I'm at with Twitter as well.

Jennie: Yeah. Well Katelyn, as always, it was wonderful having terrible, terrible conversation with you.

Katelyn: [Laughs] Thank you. It was really nice to be here and apologies for not being able to remember anything at the beginning of this episode.

Jennie: You are good.

Katelyn: I'm flying to Europe today, so I have a lot going on. [laughs]

Jennie: Okay, well thank you.

Katelyn: I am coming back though.

Jennie: Yes. Come back.

Katelyn: I'm not leaving. [laughs]

Jennie: [Music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all!