It's Time to Say #ThxBirthControl Because They are Coming for Birth Control

November 15, 2023, is #ThxBirthControl Day! Everyone deserves access to an array of birth control methods that works best for their body, their life, and their goals. Rachel Fey, Vice President of Policy and Strategic Partnerships at Power to Decide, sits down to talk with us about the importance of accessible contraception and why we should keep an eye out for attacks to birth control.

 Misinformation and disinformation about birth control has been circulating for a long time and continues to spread—particularly since the Dobbs decision. Supreme Court justices and Congresspeople have recently questioned the constitutionality and need for affordable and accessible birth control, which means now, more than ever, is the time to rally in support for this basic, necessary health care. Join us with Power to Decide in saying #ThxBirthControl!

Links from this episode

Power to Decide on Twitter
Power to Decide on Facebook
#ThxBirthControl Merchandise
#ThxBirthControl Toolkit
Power to Decide’s Take Action Center
Contraceptive Deserts
Advancing Contraceptive Access Toolkit
The Right to Contraception: State and Federal Actions, Misinformation, and the Courts

Take Action

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]
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Hey rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter and my pronouns are she/her. So, before we get started, let's just do a quick little bit of housekeeping. So, just a flag. Next week is Thanksgiving and we're gonna be off next week. I have a lot going on in the next little bit here. I'm getting ready to...well, when you hear this, I will be just getting back from a trip to Atlanta for a big conference. And then I have family coming for Thanksgiving. So, things are a bit of a whirlwind right now. So, we're just gonna take a break next week and enjoy the holiday and be thankful for all of you who have been so supportive over the years. And thankful for all of you supporting this switch to weekly for supporting us when we created the initiative. Like, I am just so grateful for all of you. I am so grateful for Rachel and Elena who are my amazing behind-the-scenes team who just do so much amazing work. Elena does an amazing job on social media. They have just been killing it. Rachel used to do social media for us for a long time now. Now she's doing writing for the initiative and but still doing, like, the website. She just released a new brief looking at Dobbs and how we are seeing global impacts around the Dobbs decision. And I am so proud of her, y'all! She just did her very first poster presentation on this amazing brief she did at the conference we were just at, the American Public Health Association. So congratulations, Rachel! You did such an amazing job on the brief. You did such an amazing job on your poster. I am so proud of you. So, feeling so thankful to work with such an amazing team. I am feeling very thankful for a lot this year. This past year has been really hard. I know I've talked about some of it, but maybe not all of it. Last year, my dad got diagnosed with cancer and he was in the hospital just before Thanksgiving for a week and I wasn't able to go home and see him because I couldn't risk bringing germs home. And then just after that my mom fell and injured her back. And so, I flew home to take care of both of them for two weeks, which was nice to be able to be there to support them and to be there for them. And then, as I've talked about on the podcast, my dad died last spring and I've just really thankful for my community who are there for me, who have still been there for me and check in on me and make sure I'm doing okay. Really thankful for my family who's been around. So, I just...as hard as the last year has been, there have been a lot of blessings and just wonderful people who have been so supportive. So wow, y'all, I was not expecting to get all heavy in this. I was just meant to talk about what I was grateful for. But yeah, as hard as this year has been, my support network has been outstanding and I'm feeling very, very grateful for all of them. Let's see. Oh, and well, I think I mentioned I have family who's coming out for Thanksgiving and I'm really excited for to see them and go out and do some exploring in the area. So, just really looking forward to that, to some time off. And I'll miss y'all for taking a week off, but we will be back right after the holiday with a new episode the following week, so we'll be around. I guess maybe with that we'll just go into this week's episode. I am very excited to have on the podcast Rachel Fey with Power to Decide. We have a wonderful conversation about yes y'all! They are coming for your birth control. And really important: tomorrow is Thanks Birth Control Day. We talk about how you can support Thanks Birth Control and how you can get involved and that is tomorrow. So, mark your calendars and don't forget to get involved. So, with that, let's go to my interview with Rachel. Hi Rachel! Thank you so much for being here.

Rachel: Thank you so much for having me.

Jennie: I am so excited to talk to you. It's been a while. I was actually just thinking about when you told your origin story on an episode 'cause I was getting ready to do this year's round of origin stories and I was laughing all over again 'cause it was so much fun.

Rachel: Aww! What was funnier? The part where I like accidentally walked into the wrong committee in high school-

Jennie: Yes.

Rachel: -and became a feminist literally because I was looking for the lit mag? Such is life.

Jennie: Yes.

Rachel: That'll be my autobiography, The Accidental Feminist.

Jennie: Okay. So, I guess before we get started, do you wanna take a second and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Rachel: Sure. My name is Rachel Fey. I use she/her pronouns. I'm the Vice President of Policy and Strategic Partnerships at Power to Decide, which is a nonprofit nonpartisan organization dedicated to improving the reproductive wellbeing of everyone, but with a real focus on people who face the greatest barriers to the care they need for that reproductive wellbeing.

Jennie: Awesome. I'm really excited to talk to you today all about birth control.

Rachel: Heck yeah. Team birth control.

Jennie: Right? And I thought a good place to start is: it feels like, or is it just me, that there has been a ton of misinformation and disinformation around birth control. Like it just feels like there's been more than usual in the air.

Rachel: That is not just a feeling, that is backed up by fact. And I'll say I think there's two ways of thinking about this. One is that that mis- and disinformation has been circulating for quite a while. It is often undergirding efforts to limit access to contraception or take away access to contraception. But I think it kind of went into overdrive after the Dobbs decision. We saw a lot of the sort of extreme minority that is opposed to birth control feel really emboldened after that decision. And that manifests in individual pharmacists not filling prescriptions. It manifests in state policy makers and federal policy makers making outrageous comments about whether or not birth control should be legal. And I think a lot of that came right from the Dobbs decision. And in particular Supreme Court Justice Clarence Thomas's concurring opinion where he questioned a slew of other decisions that are grounded in a right to privacy, including the Griswold v. Connecticut case, which gave married people the right to use contraception and the Eisenstadt v. Baird case, which granted everyone, regardless of marital status, the right to use contraception. And you question whether those and other decisions had been rightly decided in the context of the Dobbs decision. So that, I think was heard like a clearing call amongst those in the anti-birth control movement to really push forward.

Jennie: Yeah. And, like, having flashbacks to, like..."listen, they're never gonna overturn Roe and you're just being hysterical. Like they're not coming for abortion, they're not coming for birth control." Like I just, it's feeling very familiar.

Rachel: I share that, and I will say, you know, for those that didn't think that Roe would be overturned, please take us seriously when we say they're coming for birth control. It doesn't always look at first like a head-on assault so to speak. You know, it's often death by a thousand cuts. So, a good example is the Title X Family Planning Program, which for those of your listeners who aren't familiar is publicly-funded family planning dollars that go out to a network of clinics around the country and help people who are uninsured to access the contraception and related family planning care that they need. And that program has been flat funded for nine years and is likely to be, again. Imagine if you got paid the exact same salary for nine years while the rest of the world changed. Would you be able to afford the same things you could nine years ago? And the same is true for these clinics. So, in reality, in real dollars the funding's been cut. There's been a slew of lawsuits, there was the Gag Rule in 2018. So, real assault on publicly funded family planning, which disproportionately serves folks that are lower on the income scale. And because of systemic racism that disproportionately means a population that is people of color. And so, these have real impacts on a lot of people. Often the same people who are feeling the effects of all the restrictions on abortion that preceded the Dobbs decision are feeling that same kind of thing when it comes to access to birth control. And that's been going on for more than a decade. But I think what's truly outrageous in the post-Dobbs landscape, we've moved on to a world where lawmakers can't seem to get on the same page that there is an actual right to contraception. That people actually have a right to receive contraception and providers have a right to provide it. And to me, that's just outrageous. And I think it would be to most people thinking about it.

Jennie: This all sounds very familiar as somebody who works on the international side of family planning. Same—has been flat funded for, I think we're on 13 years now—and same, gag rule.

Rachel: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Similar but different. So again, very familiar space to be in and misinformation and disinformation like it is very rampant-

Rachel: Yes.

Jennie: -globally, not just domestically but how are we seeing that being used by politicians or just being used in this arena?

Rachel: Yeah. So, let me give you a good example from a few years ago. So, for the better part of the last decade—and I would say probably even a bit longer—we have seen this ongoing fight about the scientific definition of pregnancy versus a religious definition of pregnancy. And why does that matter? Well, as an example, in the wake of the Dobbs decision, when more than 10 states immediately enacted what we call "trigger bans," abortion bans that were set to go into effect, if Dobbs was overturned those bans defined pregnancy and therefore defined abortion in such broad terms that if someone wanted to implement them that way they could actually use them to ban IVF and to ban most forms of birth control as well. And so, because of that, those folks have continued to push this narrative that pregnancy begins when a sperm meets an egg, which is not when pregnancy begins. If it did, you know, there'd be babies growing in Petri dishes. You know, pregnancy begins when a fertilized egg implants in the uterus. That is the scientific and medical definition of pregnancy. And that matters because if you try to use that in order to define most methods of contraception as, and I'm using big air quotes here, "abortifacients," the result is that you can argue that almost every method of contraception is a method of abortion. And I wanna be very clear, we think abortion care is critical reproductive healthcare that everybody deserves and needs access to. But it is not the same critical healthcare as contraception, which people also need and deserve access to regardless of who they are, where they live, how much money they make. So, these folks have very successfully tried to go after contraception by likening it to abortion so they can encompass it when they attack abortion and hearken back to anything that advances contraception and say, "well no that's just funding abortion" or "that's just abortion." So, a few years ago there was a bill to eliminate copays for all veterans regardless of the method of contraception that they use. Believe it or not, the Affordable Care Act, no copay contraceptive coverage provision does not touch the VA, which is the Veterans Administration, or Tricare, which is health insurance for military service members and their families. So, those are things we've been trying to to work on for a long time. So, in the VA, if you have a medical device—like an IUD or the implant—that's covered without copay, but if you want pills, it's subject to the VA's formulary and you have to pay a copay. So, this bill would've gotten rid of copays for all FDA-approved methods of contraception. The ranking member of the committee at the time—this is when Democrats controlled the House—a Republican from Illinois was actually in favor of this, said "no, no this is not the same thing as abortion, this is contraception, we need to support it." US Conference of Catholic bishops threatened to score the vote and did, and 26 Republicans voted for this, which is a pretty big number of folks to buck the bishops. But it did not become law because that's not enough to force the Senate to take a vote on it. It was not bipartisan enough to be one of the rare bills that actually moves. So, I say this to say here was a bill that was purely about contraception but this issue of mis and disinformation was used. Members that opposed it said "oh, this is abortion funding." And that's not what this was about at all. It was about eliminating copays for birth control. So, that's a very long example but I think the fact is left and right, we see methods of contraception, particularly IUDs and emergency contraception being likened to abortifacients and then that is used as a justification for cutting off access.

Jennie: This is also giving me terrible flashbacks to Hobby Lobby, right? Like that was the whole point of that case-

Rachel: Yeah.

Jennie: -was saying they didn't want to cover these specific methods because they were abortifacients, which they were not.

Rachel: Yeah.

Jennie: And again, birth control- like, both should be legal.

Rachel: Yes. But I think that is- that's the problem is we cannot have laws made based on arbitrary definitions of what is and is not birth control. We have the Food and Drug Administration which approves things for contraceptive purposes and every FDA approved method of contraception is exactly that, a method of contraception. The FDA has approved mifepristone—and we could have a whole other podcast I'm sure about the attacks there—which is a medication used for abortion. But we are not talking about that. And when, quite frankly, when judges or policymakers step into that arena, it gets very, very dicey because why should one person's personal religious beliefs dictate what other people have access to?

Jennie: This is basic healthcare, y'all. Like, come on.

Rachel: It's- and I think that the important thing to know here is that under the auspices of that mis and disinformation, what we see is sort of both-sides-ism when a story about expanding access to contraception is told or a story about whether or not Planned Parenthood should get money to provide services, it becomes this sort of, "well it's about abortion," when really we're talking about, it's about contraception. Something that almost everyone in this country who has ever had sex has used at some point.

Jennie: This is like another conversation I wanna have—and, like, we can like park it 'cause this is definitely not today's conversation—but the creep of how everything is about abortion even when it's not like we're definitely seeing this in the global space where...oh God, I don't remember how long ago this was, it feels like forever ago...there was a bill around child marriage globally going around and then all of a sudden it was like really close to passing and all of a sudden it got flagged as an abortion bill and it went down and like it had nothing like there was nothing abortion related and it, it was like a real simple, like, child marriage bill and like yeah you, you were like starting to see that in so many different areas where like anything relating to gender is now being flagged as abortion even when it's not at all involved.

Rachel: Yeah, no, I mean is abortion fundamental to people being able to live their own lives on their own terms? Absolutely. Is it the only piece of reproductive health care out there? Not at all. And all of that is needed and necessary for people. And I do think that it's a mistake to try and tie everything to abortion as a means of killing it because quite frankly abortion polls very well. And if anything, what heartens me in these times is not that people's opinions have changed about abortion 'cause I don't think they have—I think the polling pre and post odds was very similar—what's changed is the intensity and the prioritization of the issue that people have come to. You know, you don't typically hear about abortion being a number one or number two issue after a midterm election. And that's what we saw. So, people are out there watching and they truly don't think it's the business of lawmakers to decide what healthcare they can and cannot have access to. And so, I think while I understand the other side's efforts to link abortion and contraception, I think it is a loser in two ways. One, both of those things are extremely popular and two, abortion is only more on people's consciousness in this time post-Dobbs and it's only more apparent—all the nuance, all the complicated decisions that go into someone's reproductive healthcare that truly the government has no business in.

Jennie: So, we talked about how they're, like, starting, you starting to see them, like, chipping away and we talked about how they're coming for your birth control but it definitely bears repeating 'cause again that like we're being hysterical is definitely like I feel it in the air again of, like, "y'all are being hysterical over this. They're not coming after birth control." It really bears repeating, right? Like, they are attacking birth control.

Rachel: So, I'm really glad that you asked this 'cause I brought receipts. Yes. So let me just give you a few examples of things that were said both in the Dobbs decision and in the wake of Dobbs. So, when Justice Thomas was writing about Dobbs in his concurring opinion, he wrote that because the legal basis for Roe v. Wade is also the basis for other rights including contraception, the decision recognizing that right—he's referring to the Griswold decision—should therefore be quote "reconsidered." US senators have called into question whether there is a constitutional right to contraception. Senator Mike Braun, Indiana, believes the issue should be left to the states. I feel like I've heard that one before.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Rachel: Senator Marsha Blackburn of Tennessee has stated that the right to contraception is quote "constitutionally unsound." At the state level, we've seen some really bad attacks. A few years ago in Missouri, the state legislature tried to carve out intrauterine devices and emergency contraception from their Medicaid program. The only reason they backed down was a fear of losing all federal Medicaid dollars. In Florida, Governor DeSantis has repeatedly blocked funding for contraception, specifically for IUDs and the implant for low-income constituents under pressure from the Catholic church. In 2021, Idaho lawmakers passed a law prohibiting health clinics at public schools from dispensing emergency contraception. Texas has banned coverage of abortion services and emergency contraception from state-funded family planning programs for over a decade. So, this is not hyperbole. They've been doing this for a long time and they are trying to do it and get it across the finish line now. I think the most recent example I saw was just this weekend when now Speaker of the House Johnson was on Fox News and Shannon Bream asked him about these trigger bans that he's supported in the past and their definitions of pregnancy and of abortion that implicate IVF and contraception. And he just prevaricated. I don't know any other way to say it, like they're coming for your contraception. Whether or not they're successful has a lot to do with how outraged people are and how much they are or are not having it because it's such a minority view. That is clear.

Jennie: Yeah.

Rachel: But we are seeing all these sort of—I don't want to take it into too broad a sphere—but all these anti-democratic ways of getting a minority view to be the law of the land,

Jennie: The anti side is really loud even when they're very small. And so, like, people are surprised when they see the polling on, like, abortion, right? Because they feel like the antis are so loud, they must be very large and, like, that this is such a controversial issue, but the polling is actually not really supportive of that.

Rachel: No.

Jennie: Now take the step back and, like, birth control, like, come on man, like what are you doing?

Rachel: Oh my God. We have, I mean I know we're gonna talk a bit coming up about our Thanks Birth Control campaign, but we've done polling on this for years that birth control is wildly popular. I say wildly...Gallup has a poll they do every few years of sort of values and morals and they rank everything from having an extramarital affair to birth control to gay marriages. It's basically a litany of all the things that could be contested or have been in our society. And at the top of the list as most morally acceptable comes birth control at usually around 90 to 92%. I personally want to have a conversation with that other 8%, but in polling terminology that is a wildly popular thing. So you know, some debate about birth control—that debate ended decades ago if it ever was. So, what's happening inside the beltway or in state legislatures is vastly, grossly at odds with where people are. I think therefore the question is not so much how do you fight back, but how do you make sure that that minority, that anti-contraception minority doesn't have an outsized voice in this. And you know, there's a lot of ways that folks can do that. We'll talk about the Thanks Birth Control campaign. But just a couple of other things to mention to your listeners right now. There's a bill called The Right to Contraception Act. We wanna vote on that bill in the Senate. I think there's no reason why we can't all get together and agree that people have a right to use contraception and providers have a right to provide it. Full stop. And the idea that that might not actually survive in the Senate, I still believe, is all the more important for people to see where their elected officials stand when it comes to something as simple as birth control. Another thing that is currently being debated, this is a little bit wonky, but in the National Defense Authorization Act or NDAA for short, which is a must-pass bill that authorizes all kinds of, not the money itself but how the money is used for the United States military, the Department of Defense in that bill on the House side, believe it or not, a myriad, a myriad of anti LGBTQ, anti DEI, anti repro stuff is one really good provision that would eliminate copays for everyone who's covered by Tricare, which is military health insurance. Right now, if you are a National Guard or reservist, if you are a military spouse or dependent, you don't have no copay coverage, despite the fact that you and your family serve. And that's outrageous. And seven Republicans actually voted to correct that along with their democratic colleagues in the House Armed Services Committee. So, that is in the House version of the bill, but it has to be conferenced with the Senate version of the bill—queue the "I'm just a bill on the hill." And how does this work? And in that conference behind closed doors for the last 10 years, that provision gets stripped.

Jennie: That sounds about right.

Rachel: And it's pretty clear it's not getting stripped because Democrats hate it. And so, what I would say is here you have these seven Republicans who are down with this and no one tried to strip it in the Republic from the bill on the House floor. It's more than time to get this done. So, telling your policy makers this is the time to right a wrong, next week is Veterans Day. The least we can do for our service members and our veterans is take care of their contraceptive coverage. And then finally we're about to have Opill on the shelf. Opill is the first birth control pill for daily use that's gonna be available on the shelf in your CVS or your Walgreens or whatever. And that's a big, big deal. I can chart my entire career based on the release of Plan B.

Jennie: Yeah.

Rachel: And the fight to move it to over the counter. So, to see this is huge. But along with that then comes a need for people to have insurance coverage that doesn't require them to get a prescription first. So, another bill you all can get engaged on—and all of these, if you go to power to decide in our take action center, you'll find a mechanism to literally click and contact your members of Congress about these bills—but the Affordability Is Access Act is an important piece of legislation that would require public and private health insurance plans to cover methods of contraception without requiring a prescription if they're available OTC. So, just a few things to think about that move the needle here in DC and in state legislatures.

Jennie: I am so happy you ended with good news because, seriously, this has been, like, such a bummer just thinking about all of these attacks on birth control and- but it is so, so exciting, so exciting to see the Opill coming over the counter, like, that is just gonna be amazing and similar to you, I can remember the big fights over Plan B going over-the-counter and all the accessibility issues. And yeah, so it's really exciting to see, like, this could greatly expand access to people getting birth control to be able to just go and get it over the counter but then to also have it covered like that would just be an absolute game-changer.

Rachel: That's huge. And I think it's important to know it's probably not going to happen seamlessly. You will see something on the shelf, and we won't have solved getting it covered. But we are on it. And I do believe that even once Opill reaches the shelf, it is gonna be a game changer because even if it's not the method that somebody uses long-term, if it gets them through a few months in between being able to see a provider and get the method that's right for them, then it's done its job. We see so many gaps in contraceptive access, especially for people who are struggling to even get to care. There are 19 million women living at 250% of the federal poverty level or lower. So, women, let's just say who are struggling to make ends meet—and I use women 'cause that's the data we have. I really wish it wasn't gendered—but in this particular case it's who live in contraceptive deserts. There are counties where they lack reasonable access to a clinic that offers the full range of methods. For them, this could be huge. If they can't get to a clinic that's, you know, more than 60 miles away this week, but they can get Opill on the shelf nearby and they can get to that clinic in three months, that's still better even if it's not the long-term solution for them. So, I also try to think about this not just for who's going to use Opill as their regular method, but who's going to use Opill to help them bridge gaps in healthcare access, which unfortunately are all too common in the US.

Jennie: So, I'm really excited about this part because we always end on what can people do and like y'all have like an actual tangible really important thing that is happening when this episode comes out, tomorrow, y'all. To-morrow. So, Rachel, what is tomorrow?

Rachel: Wednesday, November 15th, is Thanks Birth Control Day. And it is a chance to shout out what birth control makes possible for you, for society, for people in general. However personal or impersonal you want to be, go for it. But we're gonna make a lot of noise on social media using the hashtag #ThxBirthControl. And I've shared our social media toolkit with Jennie, so I know you'll post that in the show notes. But just get on social media and use that hashtag you'll be joining everybody from Secretary Hillary Clinton, who's been a longtime supporter of this to all kinds of celebs and personalities who join. But the point is really to raise our voice and to say birth control is basic healthcare. It makes so much else in our lives even possible and quite frankly to send a warning, like, don't you dare come for our birth control. And so, I hope everybody will participate. I will tell you that my eternal favorite Thanks Birth Control tweet by far was from a veteran who said "Thanks birth control, 'cause getting your period in a sandstorm really sucks." And I really don't have anything better to say than that. But the point is that there's a great example of how it's different for everyone, right? And why we all turn to birth control and what birth control and why we love it, you know, is so different. But I will say that I am now coming up on towards the end of my reproductive years—which is wild to say out loud, but it's true, I'm 44—and I would not have the career that I have, the education that I have or the life that I have without birth control. And I'm one person. I'm pretty sure that's true for so many people across the world. So please join us on Wednesday, November 15th and shout out #ThxBirthControl as your hashtag and and join us.

Jennie: Y'all, there are so many fun graphics in that toolkit-

Rachel: There really are.

Jennie: -and gifs and also, they always have really cute t-shirts and hats and things. I will have to make sure to dig out my T-shirt to wear that day. I will be flying back to DC that day, but I will make sure to wear one on my flight.

Rachel: I love it. I will say, I was just talking to the now-in-his-nineties former governor of New Jersey, and he said he still wears his Thanks Birth Control shirt to the gym, which sparks all kinds of conversations.

Jennie: Oh my god, I love it.

Rachel: Bless him. So, shout out to former New Jersey governor Tom Kean and his love of thanks birth control.

Jennie: So fun.

Rachel: It doesn't matter what age you are. My very pregnant friend once wore a Thanks Birth Control t-shirt, and everybody came up to her and asked about it. She's like, "yeah, 'cause this was planned and so will the next one." So, it's really for everybody and it can be as serious or as fun as you want it to be.

Jennie: Absolutely. And, like, yeah, just the ability to decide if, when, and how you get pregnant like that is- lets you plan your life in every way.

Rachel: Yes. And you know, sometimes in my, when I have dark thoughts, I sometimes think that's exactly why that minority of folks doesn't like contraception. But then I dismiss that and just say they're a bunch of party poopers and they need to exit the stage.

Jennie: Well Rachel, thank you for being here. I hope everybody takes part in Thanks Birth Control Day tomorrow and it was lovely talking to you.

Rachel: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it. And happy Thanks Birth Control Day, everyone!

Jennie: Okay y'all, I had a great conversation with Rachel. It was wonderful to talk to her about all things related to birth control, but especially Thanks Birth Control Day. I hope y'all remember to participate tomorrow and I will see y'all in two weeks 'cause don't forget, we are off next week. Okay, bye y'all! [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!