An Ask Me Anything Conversation on the Current Moment in Repro

From how we are preparing for the forthcoming Supreme Court ruling to how we are dealing with burnout, Tarah Demant, Interim National Director of Programs, Advocacy, and Government Affairs at Amnesty International USA, shares her thoughts on the current moment in reproductive health, rights, and justice and asks host Jennie Wetter a plethora of ask me anything (AMA) questions!

Links from this episode

INeedAnA.Com
Abortion Fund Donation Finder
The Repro Legal Helpline
Tarah Demant on Twitter
Amnesty International USA on Twitter
Amnesty International USA on Facebook

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things, reproductive, health, rights, and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex, education, and LGBTQ issues, and much, much more –giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

Read More

Jennie: Hi rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host, Jennie Wetter and my pronouns are she/her. So y’all, I'm really excited for today's episode, and I'm gonna really just keep my intro short. I had the guest who was gonna come talk to you fall through. She had some flight issues, and so we had to reschedule. And so, she'll be back soon. Don't worry. We will have a great conversation with her coming up in the next couple episodes. Don't worry. But, I am so lucky to have a wonderful friend, like Tarah Demant who stepped up and said she would help me make sure that we still got an episode to y'all today. So, I had Tarah come and help me do an “ask me anything” episode. So, I guess with that, I will turn this episode over to Tarah Demant from Amnesty. Hi Tarah! Thank you so much for being here today.

Tarah: Hello! Thank you for letting me temporarily take over your podcast.

Jennie: I know! I'm so excited. First, I will do this one, one Host-y thing and I'll hand it over. Do you wanna introduce yourself and include your pronouns? And then it's all you!

Tarah: Yeah, I would love to. My name is Tarah Demant. My pronouns are she/her,and I'm with Amnesty International USA, and I'm really excited to be an interloper here and lead this great podcast. So today, welcome to rePROs Fight Back and we are running an AMA, which is an “ask me anything,” which I definitely had to look up because I am not cool. I don’t know, acronyms or the internet, but this is some of the questions that you, our listeners, sent in and wanna hear more about your intrepid host. So, I will be kicking some questions to you. Jennie, are you ready?

Jennie: I hope so.

Tarah: Awesome.

Jennie: Let's do it.

Tarah: Let's do this. So, the first question I think is helpful for everyone, which is: how are you preparing for the forthcoming SCOTUS ruling?

Jennie: So I guess I can't say, like, hiding under my bed and crying, like that's probably not…helpful.

Tarah: It might be real. I mean…if that's what you're doing. I might have some suggestions, but it might be the answer.

Jennie: So…like a number of things. Definitely lots of rage donating, mostly to abortion funds.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Because, y’all, they're gonna need the money. I just did my latest round to the Roe Fund in Oklahoma cuz Oklahoma just has like a total abortion ban that went into effect, so that's a real problem and not just for Oklahoma, but like that's where everybody from Tex- or not everybody, but a lot of people from Texas were going to get their abortions.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: So…just again, things are gonna be really bad. So I'm lucky in that I am able to donate.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: So, I have been doing donating. I also went on a spree of buying a bunch of fun abortion fund t-shirts this last weekend, which I didn't need, but I mean, honestly, do you ever not need them? So…I got a bunch more of those. I have also been thinking about the things that…so like the things I'm preparing like for work, right? Like, making sure like all of our press releases are ready, and like, thinking about things that we need to talk about, like, how is this gonna have an impact globally? Not just in the U.S., but also thinking about the podcast and like what topics or what things do we need to talk about on here that are gonna be helpful for other people. So, in that area, I'm thinking of like digital security, like, what things should I be talking about for people who are in a state where abortion might get criminalized? Like, what are things that they need to think about around digital security if they're gonna go get an abortion. So, I'm just trying to think of episodes that would be helpful.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And, and ways that I can help out. So that's kind of where my head has been at. I'm sure you have some suggestions too. So, what have you been doing?

Tarah: Well, let me first, I mean, let me first dig in a little bit to what you've been saying. So, you know, oftentimes I think when people are like, “what are you doing?” And, and, like, the first answer for lots of us is, like, donating into abortion funds, right? And I'm usually very wary of capitalistic solutions to systemic problems. And I would say if people have funds, this is a capitalistic problem as well, which is if you have funds to donate, please do. And, and of course get your amazing abortion merch. And, partly because of course it, it provides financial support to the abortion funds that are making these great t-shirts, but also because it is a way of showing your solidarity. And I was recently in Vermont wearing my “everybody loves somebody who has had an abortion” t-shirt from NNAF. And, I had, I was stopped by like four or five older women in like somewhat discreet situations where someone would sort of come over and whisper like, “oh yes, that's, that's really, really good.” Right? And this is like in a really, really liberal space. And the opposite example of that is I was wearing my “fuck abortion bans” t-shirt from TEA Fund down in Texas two months ago, I think. And many, many people were like clearly just really glad to see someone supporting abortion and lots and lots of people in Texas support abortion. Right? So, they were glad to see someone else supporting the thing they also did, whether or not they have a t-shirt, right? And, and so I think one of the ways to think about when you're wearing abortion merch is the way that we're trained to create solidarity and conversation with each other, as well as like, give your money to abortion funds. Absolutely. If you've got an extra dollar? Boy. Make it, make it count.

Jennie: But like destigmatizing. Like, even just wearing a shirt that says abortion is, like, big.

Tarah: Yeah. So I think that's one of the things I'd think about too for, for all of us, is like, what are the ways in which like, we are, like, yes, donate your money. And, like, friends, we are in this for the long haul, we're gonna lose a lot, and it's gonna be really tough, and we have to lay down the pavement before we can walk that road and win. So, what are we doing to take care of each other? And what are we doing to take care of ourselves? And what are we doing to connect to our community? And like, sometimes it's as simple and dumb as wearing a “fuck abortion bans” T-shirt in Texas where loads and loads of Texans are fully in support of human rights and abortion and can feel…I know that I feel that solidarity when I see other people wearing abortion gear out in the wild, right? Obviously at a protest, but like, just out in the wild where I'm like, yes, my people. We outnumber them.

Jennie: Smile, like head nod, or like, “oh my God, I love your shirt!”

Tarah: So, so that's, I think a challenge for both of us who are, you know, obviously very professionalized in this work, but also then, um, like, what are the ways that we're taking care of ourselves and our community long term? And I think, and that's really tough in these moments of crises, right? So that, that's one of the, it's a plug for an abortion t-shirt or whatever merch and, and obviously in the safest space, that makes sense for you as a listener. But, but thinking about the way that we're continuing that conversation. And I think…I think one of the challenges is like, and also like, where are those points of joy, right? Like this is such…this is a really shitty time. And, and Jennie, I never know if I swear on your podcast, I'll try and load it back. Your listeners are probably like, “who is this clown?”

Jennie: Yeah. I mean, we’re talking about fucking abortion bans.

Tarah: We’re talking about fucking abortion bans! So it it's appropriate. But like, this is such a shitty time, and you know, lots of your listeners won't be prepping press releases because they don't work in an org. And then, then that's not their job. And, I think one of the questions is how do we sustain ourselves in this moment? Which is also like, are you doing yoga? Are you taking care of yourself? Are you drinking lots of water? And I mean, this like very – like hydrate for God's sake. The abortion movement needs hydration. And, like, what are the ways we're creating joy for each other? And it…even in the, even in the face of immense loss, right? How are we creating joy for each other? So, so what have I been doing? I mean, I've been donating to abortion funds. I have been…obviously work stuff, I’ve been getting press releases ready; we've been launching campaign tags; we've been coordinating with state base work. I mean, prepping for the state work. And, and that's, that is a very tangible thing people can do is like, wherever, whatever state you live in, whether it's a quote unquote good state or a bad state, like who on the ground is doing that work in campaigning, like find out how you can be a, a part of that because that's something you can control right now. Like you can't control the Supreme Court, but also like, how are you just taking care of our community? Right? Which is how are we reaching out and checking in with each other? And, and not that it makes it better. It doesn't, it's really, really bad, but it, it makes it like we can survive this together and actually carve out pieces of joy. So, yeah. I mean, I've been, I've been struggling with obviously the trying to trying to create joy, but because there's so much we're gonna lose. Right? But like, I know that we will win. It's just that we have to get through this and we have to do it together and, and we can only win together, right? So, so in addition to donating and wearing abortion T-shirts, like, same…Like I've been trying to focus on things that I can control. And sometimes that's as simple as like, oh, the actual thing around the house I haven't gotten done in maybe two years that finally I'm like, I will put that shelf back up, right?

Jennie: Oh my God. Totally. Yeah.

Tarah: Yeah. Cause, like, that's a way to actually exert control. And then, also, trying to think is, what is one thing I can control in this space? We can't control the Supreme Court, right? But I can control checking out the, like, I'm basic, like you in DC and checking back in with the DC abortion fund and seeing what they need right now, or checking in, if you live outside of DC in your state, like, what is the movement going on there? And today the one thing I did was check in on that. Like, I didn't have to solve anything…I didn't have to, you know, but I, I checked in on that. So yeah. But it's been tough. I mean, as, as you know…which, I mean, this dovetails really well into the next question from listeners, which is, there is so much happening right now. How are you dealing with burnout?

Jennie: So, this is like, I feel like…always a complicated question, because burnout is, like, one of those things. It, there's not like an end…I mean, I'm sure at some point there is, but I don't feel it any time soon. I feel like last year I went through, I-I'm hoping the worst of it. Lots of ,like, crying for, I mean, for like the slightest reason, like you looked at me funny and like…

Tarah: Right.

Jennie: I'm, I'm like crying on Zooms and…

Tarah: Yeah. Yeah.

Jennie: I'm hoping that was the worst of it. But I also do worry a little bit. I’m at the point where emotions are kind of dulled, like…yeah.

Tarah: Yes! I, I worry about that.

Jennie: I’m worried. Like, I'm like, am, am I worse? Like, is the, was like the crying, the good part? And like, now I'm like so much more burned out? Or have I gotten things more under control? I don't know. I'm not sure where that is.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: But I know, like, when the Supreme Court ruling came down, I was like, this really sucks. I'm mad, but I don't, like, feel mad.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And it's really hard. I don't know. It feels hard to explain, like everything just feels a little muffled.

Tarah: No, yes.

Jennie: And…not good. Like I assume like I can't, that can't be good.

Tarah: Yeah. I bet a lot of your listeners…our listeners now that I'm a co-host for the day. Um, I bet a lot of listeners…I mean, everything you said resonated so strongly with me. I feel like when the decision was leaked, I, I was shocked because we weren't expecting it to release, not, not shocked with the outcome.

Jennie: I was having a perfectly pleasant Monday or Tuesday, or whatever.

Tarah: Exactly. And I felt, more than anything, I felt empty.

Jennie: Yeah!

Tarah: And I felt like…I felt like a, a bit of a, like a golem, like a…like a terracotta pot. That's like…it's…And that specifically, all the water had been dumped out. And, if you know anything about gardening, terracotta seeps water, so, it's like a terrible way to plant things, actually. And I felt so empty. I remember thinking, “I feel like a terracotta pot,” which of course is a pun on my name I hadn't thought about, but like, I, I just like, I've been, I've just…all the water is dumped out and I have nothing to give. Like I just, like, I'd have this dullness to my voice when explaining…when someone would call me, like, “what is this?” And I had to explain to our staff and I had to explain to families and friends that, you know, are in different lines of work or, or not paying as close attention, which, of course, is totally understandable.

Jennie: There’s a lot.

Tarah: And I just felt dull and like dull…like that, that dullness. I think that…look, you know, like not a medical doctor, but there's a lot of research out there talking about how, like, we are not designed as bodies to take on the amount of trauma that we've been collectively experiencing over the last six years and, and particularly with the end of the pandemic. But of course, like four years of, of real political violence being so…present in, in the national daily life, which of course had been extremely present for a number of our community members and particularly Black and brown people. But like, we're not…we're not equipped to deal with this much trauma. And I do wonder how much of this is a continuation of that, that impact. But I, I do think it's, you know, I, I really appreciate you sharing that. One, cuz I feel the exact same, and you and I haven't had a chance to talk lately, which is…which sucks.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: But, but I, I would guess a lot of your listeners have the same thing. And I, I think that these are also really classic symptoms of anxiety and depression, which to me…having thought about this as, you know, I thought, yeah, but like, it just feels super normal that in the face of, like, unspeakable horror, you would feel this way.

Jennie: Right?

Tarah: And that's, that's also true, but I, I do think it's a good plug for folks to be plugged into mental health professionals. I, I think about that too…the way that this has sort of weighed on all of us living our normal mental health lives, right? And that now it's a question of, like, it's normal to feel bad and empty, but it doesn't, you know, is that the way we have to live? And, and I don't know. You know, that's deeply, deeply personal, and I think that, like, it's not advice for folks, but I, I do wonder, and I wonder how you and I can think about that too. Like, what does it mean… again, to wanna find joy in a really, really fucked up world.

Jennie: So, I'm trying to be proactive.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And know that things are, like, June's gonna be bad, right?

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Like, I know June's gonna be bad. So, I am actually off next week, and I am so…like the week when y'all are listening to this, I am off. I will hopefully be staying mostly off of social media. It's a curse, and sometimes you still go on, but I'm really going to make the effort to not be there. I have no plans. I don't, I don't have anything planned I'm going to do. I am just going to do what makes my heart happy. And honestly, if that's nothing, it's nothing. And, I'm looking forward to that. Watching some bad TV, reading some lovely books…I, I just, that's where I'm at, and I'm really looking forward to it.

Tarah: Yes. And I think that unplugging…there, surely there's like an app for that…that you can be like, “don't let me social media between the hours,” or whatever. Like the Internet's figured out a solution for itself. but like…

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: But, like, unplugging is a central part of being plugged in. And I think for me, and again, I'd assume lots of your listeners, that I can feel sometimes a guilt when I'm not, like, top of my game and like a hundred percent in the fight at this very moment.

Jennie: I need to do all the things all the time!

Tarah: I need to do all the things all the time, or I personally…

Jennie: Or I’m a bad advocate!

Tarah: Yeah! I'm a bad advocate!

Jennie: Yes!

Tarah: And like, I am the reason, you know. Et cetera.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: And like there's no small amount of hubris there, but it's also, I think, the guilt and the weight that all of us feel, who are in this movement, who care about this because of how important it is. It is natural than to feel that weight…

Jennie: To feel personal, right?

Tarah: It's personal. And so how can people unplug? Even at this, the most crucial moment? How can you take a breath so that you can breathe in so that you can come back to breathe out, right? Like…

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Yeah, no, I'm really, really glad you're off next week. And I have a number of bad television I will be sending you.

Jennie: Yes!

Tarah: Like so much. I have…bad television is all I watch. I, someone once asked, like…what was it? Do you watch like 20 there's something 24, the Handmaid’s Tale. I was like, no, I watch cartoons. Like, I don’t watch like serious TV.

Jennie: Right? Oh my God. Bob’s Burgers gets me through so much. Yeah.

Tarah: Yeah. And it, for folks that can watch horror and like really serious, like, good for you. That's great. I don't think that's anything bad, but my brain's like, Nope. Like, we were dealing with that all day long. We're gonna watch some really, like, questionably written bad TV.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Where the joke is how bad it is. Yeah. Maybe when this publishes we'll go back online.

Jennie: Yeah. I mean, listen, The Great British Baking Show can only do so much, right? Like, that really got me through a while, like, you know, you can tell when things are like bad, I'm like, I need to watch Great British Baking Show.

Tarah: I mean, it is just like a, you know, Xanax to the soul, right?

Jennie: Yes!

Tarah: And also it's, I think this is, I mean, again, not a mental health professional, like, but there's something to be said…I, I do this a lot where, when things feel the most out of control, I do something that is very physical. Obviously not exercise, which would be healthy for me. And my doctor's like, “please God exercise.” And I'm like, “okay, it's just not gonna happen.” But, you know, like my heart rate is always the wrong weight or whatever, but like, that, like I'll bake something and I know you baked a lot and like, or I'll fix something around the house or I'll build something or I'll go out into the garden, I'll do something with my power tools. Like I love power tools. I am my father's daughter. Like, but something that's really corporal because it's like so contained, right. Whereas this? Is the fight of our lives.

Jennie: I mean, something being done…

Tarah: And it's done! Yeah! And then when you bake that thing?

Jennie: I have this thing!

Tarah: Yeah! And then you're like, “and then I ate this thing.” So, I would strongly recommend to all you listeners out there, what is one thing that you can do, and you don't have to do it well.

Jennie: No.

Tarah: You don't have to be a master knitter to knit something, or a master baker. Like, do a thing that has an end point, and then be like, I made this. Uh oh, it kinda sucks. Oh, well. Like, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I mean this, the problem is, Jennie, you have set the baking bar very high. So…we could, I do love the idea of next week when you're off of social in this point, those of us that are still on going through and doing a bake off on your Twitter feed…

Jennie: Oh my God.

Tarah: To see all the great stuff. Like what are people doing to take care of themselves? I, I think that's actually, as you're listening to this podcast, like on Twitter, under the show, you know, what are you doing to take care of yourself?

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Because we need every single one of us in this fight, which means we need to be able to step out of this fight for a moment and take a breath.

Jennie: Yes! And if you need to step away, step away. Cuz, I mean, it's not…like it's not just a saying. This is a marathon, not a sprint. And like, it's a relay race too.

Tarah: And it’s a relay race! It is a baton race.

Jennie: Step away when you need to step away.

Tarah: Pass me the baton.

Jennie: When you’re not mad…like it’s fine.

Tarah: That's right. Pass me the baton and I will pass it off when it's time for me. And then I'll come back in on the next…I don't know how relays - do you come back in on relay races?

Jennie: This one you do.

Tarah: But this is a recurring relay race, right? Like, you pass the baton so you can take a break and then someone else runs around and they'll pass it back to you. So, yeah. It's a good metaphor. Cuz it's really real.

Jennie: Yeah. And like, you also need to know that you can't do all the things, right?

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: Like, I have really figured out over the last several years that, like, big crowd-based things give me anxiety.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: I went to the March for Our Lives and started to have, like, a mini panic attack. Like…I was fine until I wasn't.

Tarah: Right.

Jennie: And I needed to be out of there, and I couldn't get out of there very easily.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: If you were there, like it was…

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: There weren't easy exits.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And…I just can't do that to myself anymore. So like, I always feel guilty for not going to, like, marches. But I'm like, it is not good for me, so, I need to do other things. And, like, so finding what your things are, that are, that make you happy and, like, that you like doing are the things that are good to do.

Tarah: Yeah. And also, like, there's too many cooks in the kitchen. You know, a restaurant needs lots of different types of workers. You need someone at the front, you need someone who cleans. You need someone who cooks. You need someone who eats, like, you know, you need all those things, and that's the same at the movement, right? So…yeah. I mean, sure, I find those, those really invigorating and that I'm tired and cranky, but you know, that's, that's not the only way. That's just a very visible way to make change, and it can be very cathartic, but it's, it’s just one way.

Jennie: I like the small things at the Supreme Court.

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: Cuz, like, it's the smaller crowd, generally.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And like, that, I feel…that one is…has been better for me doing those. I haven't done it since the pandemic, but…

Tarah: I think…well, yeah, gosh, the plague, right? I think the other thing is…right? There's things that feel like they're the right thing, cuz they're very visible, and I…

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: One of the questions, right…Is like, what can you do right now? And it might not be the thing that hits the photo on the paper. And for those of us that are based in DC, like that is where the photo gets taken, right? At the court. You're like, oh, I should have been there. It's like, or not.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah:You should have been calling your auntie to have that conversation that, you know, they've been putting off, or like, talking to someone who needed the mental health break together to talk to how hard it is, or like, taking your own break because you need to be ready for the movement, right? Like…so, those are really visible and obviously they're like really Instagram-able to prove like, don't worry. I did my…I got my merit badge.

Jennie: Yup.

Tarah: I did my, like, abortion merit badge today. But like, yeah, the, the movement needs accountants too, y'all. Like, you know. Do, do the thing. Do the thing that you can do and that, and we need that thing.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah. That, you know, so…gosh, just one of the questions that's also from the AMA and is really related, is like, what is it that made you so passionate about this issue? When you're thinking about the tactics that now are really are life giving to you…

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: But like, what is it about this issue that made you wanna get involved? I mean, did you always wanna be involved in reproductive rights?

Jennie: Oh my God. No. If you were to, like, go talk to, like, little, little Jennie and were like, “you're gonna be like working on abortion,” or whatever. A little Catholic school, Jennie, would've definitely been like, “what? I dunno about that…” But, but I also can like trace it back to there. So, like, I, I always say that like, I didn't have like a big “aha” moment…

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: But there were, like, seeds planted, like throughout…my life.

Tarah: Mm-hmm .

Jennie: So, one…and I feel like I tell this story a lot, but it really was big to me for, like, a number of reasons. And, again, I went to Catholic school, and a girl in my class asked me if I wanted to go with her to go to Madison to go save babies. And I was like, “I mean, yeah. Obviously, like, I would love to go save babies.” And like, going home and like, “Hey mom! Can I go with so-and-so to go to Madison and save babies?” and her being like, “Okay let’s sit down and have a conversation.” And, she did it in a very…I found, very important way. She didn't tell me like, “this is what you should think,” or “that is wrong.” She really sat me down and was like, “well, have you thought about…what about this situation?” Or “What about this? What if this is happening?” Or, she just, like, gave me a fuller picture, and then said, “if you still wanna go, you can go.” And, she gave me the agency to make my own choices with more information. And that was ground changing, not just for planting repro seeds, but, like, for life, right? Like, learn more about the issue and then make up your own mind. And, I know so many people who weren't raised that way, right? Like, this is what you should think. And like, to me, that was just, like, really groundbreaking that that's how my mom approached it.

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: And like, I remember talking to her later, and being like, “this was, like, so important to me.” And she's like, “I don't, I don't, I don't know what you're talking about.” So to her, it was just, like, another day. But it really stuck with me. Like, I can picture sitting at the…in ,like, in the sunroom at the counter. Like I, I can see it.

Tarah: Right.

Jennie: It's so funny. And then, again, Catholic school. So, I had sex-ed from a nun who, um, as you can imagine, was very education-y about sex ed, right?

Tarah: Right. Super fact based.

Jennie: Yeah. Super fact based, like, I, I really, I always just say I had the Mean Girls sex-ed education, right? Like, you're gonna have sex, you're gonna get this horrible disease and you're gonna die. And so, again, like, that did not make me, like, go all in on repro. And it's just, like, things that came back later when I started getting more involved and being like, I don't want anybody to get that shit education I had.

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie:Like, it did not prepare me for life later. Like, that is terrible. Let's make sure that this doesn't happen to anybody else. And then, just like all of a sudden, it was just, like, the passion and fire just exploded. But yeah, if you were like to go back and tell younger me, like, I could never imagine that this would be what I'm doing for a number of reasons. Like, I couldn't imagine myself…talking on a microphone about something, cuz, like, that's not my jam either, but…It’s something I really have found I really enjoy doing.

Tarah: Yeah. I grew up in a really conservative town too, in a rural, a rural space. We grew up in California. But like, in a really rural, really rural town. And my parents were the only Democrats in town and they weren't like particularly hyper-progressive, but you know, comparatively….and I don’t know that there was really an “aha” moment either, right? You just…

Jennie: Yeah!

Tarah: At some point you're just like, yeah duh. You gotta do this work. There's no women's liberation without this. There’s no LGBT equality without this. There's no racial equity without this, right? Like…

Jennie: Like it just was, like, baked in, right?

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: Like, my mom was like really in…and I'm sure you had this in a similar way, but like, my mom was very much into service, and like, she served on a lot of boards and did a lot of volunteering. So like, it was just, like, baked in. And so, like I said, not an “aha” moment, but like, things that happened that, like, triggered like, yeah, no, this is not cool. So like, I had a roommate in college who was very conservative and part of, like, a really conservative religion. And so was very, like, outspoken on, like, being pro-life and anti-gay and all these things. And like…Just being like, “whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Not cool. Not okay.” And like…but it wouldn't, wasn't something that, like, I had like the “aha” moment. It was just, like, that pushback right away. I don't know.

Tarah: Yeah. Yeah. I think, you know, thinking about human rights more broadly, which I was doing sort of earlier…there was just a moment where it's like, you can't do any, you can't have any of this without abortion. You can't…None of this happens without abortion. And that's true for a number of intersectional issues, right? But I, I think it's like a…I mean, as a cis woman also thinking, what does it mean to have equality in this world? And what does equity look like? And, you know, and those were, those are big thoughts for some, you know, in college they feel like gigantic thoughts, right? No one's ever thought this that way before.

Jennie: Right? Never.

Tarah: Yes. And now it's like, these 12 year olds are like, yeah, obviously duh. And I, I think that was a big turning point for me is, I was really focused in on women's rights work and, and sort of like a broad version of it. I do remember, though, when I was…this one’s really gonna date me, probably your listeners are much younger and cooler, but I was…I, I was really young. I must have been like eight and we were going to a political rally, and it was in Fresno. I grew up outside of Fresno and it was…my mom went. It was like, it was for the democratic candidate and, oh gosh, I'll have to think of the year. And my mom went and there were people outside with those signs of like dismembered fetuses.

Jennie: Oh yes.

Tarah: And my mom is like…five-foot. She's like, she's actually like four-eleven. She likes to say she's five foot. She's not.

Jennie: I remember her being about my height.

Tarah: Yeah. Yeah. She is four-eleven. And she Lost. Her. Shit. Like she lost. She just was like, “how dare you?” It was the Michael Dukakis rally, which will not resonate for loads of people who are under 40. But, um, Michael Dukakis, R.I.P. that campaign, who was a democrat…who lost to Georgia H.W. Bush, George, W. Bush's father. And my mom just, like, went, she just went nuts. I mean, and I, my, I knew that she was pro-choice, which is how she would've said it then, but it wasn't something that she was like hyper passionate about. And then she, she was just like, “no, these are lies.” Like, these are lies and how dare you. And I remember being like, “well, whatever's gotten her that fired up…I should probably figure this out.” Um, and then they came and like picketed our school too. We, we lived in this really rural town, like I grew up in an extremely rural space. Like, 30 miles, maybe even more, like, to the closest city, which was Fresno. Fres-yes. And in a town with about a thousand people.

Jennie: Oh, I feel ya.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Like, so I, I often say I grew up in the Midwest of California. And the folks with those big signs, the dismembered fetus signs, came to our school. And we lived in the, the house right across from the high school, like, we're the one intersection in town and, like, so we’re there. And then my dad…

Jennie: Yeah. Oh my God. I love it. The one intersection in town.

Tarah: We were the literal one intersection in town.

Jennie: I mean, I didn't live in the town where I went to high school, but I relate to that.

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: Cuz that's what that was. Yeah.

Tarah: Yeah, like, think small town. And like people have extremely strong heart beliefs around abortion and mostly…most people opposed abortion on deeply religious grounds that I knew. And I, you know, growing up, I like, yeah, feel…I don't know, abortion feels wrong…that… right? You know. But then these people came with these signs. I'm like, “oh no, they're, they're lunatics, right?” And then, the more you learn, you're like, “oh, this, this debate has been co-opted and this…nothing I sort of thought about this was right.” So…

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Again, yeah. Not like an “aha” moment, but, but then you get here and you're like, I can't, there's no way that you can't not do this, right? It's a…Nothing that I want this world to be, is…happens without abortion. I think…that's been a really interesting journey for me. You know, always you're supposed to do these visions, which is like, what's the world you want to be? And if, if folks that are listening work in nonprofit, that's supposed to be the like thing you pitch to people, not the, like, things that are wrong. And all I am is, like, driven by intense fire hatred for the things that are wrong. Like, and just like…

Jennie: Yes!

Tarah: The, the sun, no, no, no. The fire of a thousand sons of, of hate. And…Which is, like, such a shitty way to live.

Jennie: Which is obviously why we're friends.

Tarah: Which is why we're friends. And it's also, like, every mental health professional in the world is probably like, “please, no.” So like, what's the world we wanna live in? Right? And like, what's the world we want it to be? And those…that's the vision. Like, none of that happens without abortion. And now it's just, like, so obvious. It feels, like, so obvious that we do this work, right?

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: But it's so funny that you and I have had such parallel, parallel journeys.

Jennie: I know, right?

Tarah: What's, you know…what's something when you've been doing this work…in the variations that you've done it, but like, what's something you're really proud of having achieved?

Jennie: So…what…This podcast. Like, just in its entirety. Like, I am inherently pretty introverted. I mean, I'm very introverted. I, like, I…so like, the thought of doing something like this was a little terrifying, and I definitely rejected it when it came up. But, I overcame all that, and, and I'm doing it. And so like, that's pretty amazing in and of itself. But I was terrified this year. We did an episode talking about intimate partner violence, and…

Tarah: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. I remember that episode.

Jennie: How it's a repro issue. And I was so nervous to talk about it on there, talk about my experience with it. I really feel very lucky that I interviewed Monica Edwards for that. Like, she, I think…together we found the strength to, like, tell our stories and, like, have a really, I mean, not light…but like not feel the stress of it in the moment, like telling each other the stories. And like, we ended up talking a long time after about a number of things and, and like, that really helped, but, like, the thought of, like, when, when it came time to, like, push publish, like I just got, like, really nervous again. And, I'm just, like, really proud of myself, cuz like that was, like, the first time I really talked about it, other than like kind of a really just glancing reference. Maybe a little bit…you know, I, like I said, I'm inherently introverted and I, I let people in, but, like, you know, maybe there's like a, a bit of a wall of like… And so, it felt like opening it a little further and, like, being more open, which I thought was a big step.

Tarah: Well, and, like, to the worldwide web.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: As the young folks call it, the worldwide web. I mean like that's everybody, right? Yeah. No, I, that episode was so powerful and so good. I mean all the episodes are so, so good. I think that…you know, it can be very abstract when we talk about these issues.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Especially if you work in law and policy, and we're trying to like, you know, we're trying to change law and policy and code, and all these kinda, like, really technical, nerdy things. And like, as I adjust my glasses and I'm like, “lemme tell you about the, you know, the following treaties that we're violating,” which again, I'm a hundred percent gonna do that everytime…

Jennie: But also yes.

Tarah: Yeah. But also yes. But like, you know, at the end, this matters because, like, we all deserve to live lives of dignity.

Jennie: We’re worried about the people, right?

Tarah: Yeah. Like at the end it matters cuz we're humans that have human experiences and it, and it's so powerful. It's very generous to share that.

Jennie: And I think it ties back to like the burnout, right?

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: Like, it's easy to focus on the policies and things. Because if I think about the people, like, that's when I talked about, like, being really numb around SCOTUS. But when I started to think about, like, all of the people who aren't gonna get access to abortion that they need, like, that's when I started to cry. And so, like, I can't focus…On the people, because that's the part that just, like, utterly will break my heart. I need to think of the policy changes that need to happen…

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: To ensure that the people get the services they need. And so…but it is really important to bring it back to, like, that personal level, because that's why it's important.

Tarah: Right.

Jennie :But it's, it's hard to focus on that cuz, like, that's the part I feel like, that just…it'll break me man.

Tarah: Yeah. Well, cause it's, it's devastating, right? It's devastating. Yeah. I…I feel that, I think that like, you know, I think one of it's also, like, how do we find…again, like, man, all I'm doing is talking about joy. I feel like Oprah for like 40 billion dollars, less, less, less wealthy, obviously. But otherwise, we're the exact same. Well it's like, how do we find…

Jennie: Do I get a car today? Oh my God.

Tarah: Yeah. You get a car! You get a car…You…I’ve got used Tupperware if you want it. It's it's got some spaghetti stains on it. I'm so sorry. It's not great. Like, you know, this is a dark time in the world and it's a tough time. It's certainly one of…definitely the, one of the darker timelines I've been in this multiverse, called America in terms of this, you know, moment. But we, this country's had lots and lots of dark times, obviously, but like, things are hard and they're really bad and they're really shitty. And like, we can't pretend they're not. But what we can do is still find joy in connection. And like, you know, and do these really hard things together…joyfully. And there's a real privilege, I mean, there's certainly a real privilege to being able to professionalize that work and do that from nine to five, or in, you know, in DC from ten to eight, whatever might be. But like, no one comes in real early, but we don't roll home early either. But, you know, so there's a real privilege there, but it's also partly because it's, like, it's a privilege to do hard things with friends, Paul Farmer, right? Who was the physician, physicians in health? PIH? That was…

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Yeah. I, I don't work that much in, sort of, global health…

Jennie: Partners in Health?

Tarah: Partners in Health. Thank you. Partners in Health. Who started that organization. They do a load of like targeting the most underserved spaces for healthcare, and…globally. And he founded this, I don't know, way back when, and, and recently passed away the last couple of months, somewhat early. He was like, in his sixties, it was real shock for the global health community, and, and one of his quotes…I was really moved by, you know, they…he talked, he'd been interviewed a number of times with like, how do you stay hopeful and blah, blah, blah. And, and he was just like, it's, it's a pleasure to do this work. Like, it is to be able to do hard things with friends, right? Which doesn't mean like the thing is not really crummy that you're doing, which is like in…you know, looking at the, like, devastating impact of colonialism on, on like healthcare in Haiti, right? But, but like to do hard things with friends? You know, that that's where that's, that's a pleasure. Like it's actually fun. It's good. And, feels sometimes guilty.

Jennie: And this community is amazing.

Tarah: Yeah! Like this community's amazing! And like, yeah, we're gonna do, we're gonna do really hard things. And we wish we didn't have to. It'd be so much better if we could just go do anything else cuz this was taken care of. But like, we have the privilege of, of being together in this together, whether you're professionalized or not, right? We, we will do hard things together. And that is fun. That is interesting. So yeah. No, that was a, that was a really powerful episode. And, and partly cuz it is about doing hard things together, having that conversation together, right?

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: You know, you've talked about, on the podcast, thinking of other episodes, and, and also sort of dovetailing on the question, what you're proud of. You've talked about imposter syndrome a couple of times, and I'm wondering what advice you have for, I don't know, let's say a random listener out there, also known as myself, who like…how do we get better at not feeling like a fake?

Jennie: So this is like, like transparency of, like, I really struggle with this one. But I also feel like, again, I'll take this back to my conversation with Monica, and like, when we were talking after the interview, so the part y'all didn't hear, we were talking about like the voice in your head. And I'm like, “I don't understand, like, my imposter syndrome, like my parents didn't raise me that way.” And I'm like, “I just don't understand where it comes from.” And I'm like, holy shit! Is that where that voice is coming from? From, like, the person who kept saying I wasn't good enough. And, like, all of those things…that it has now become my internal monologue, that I always refer to it as the Statler and Waldorf, in my head. And some of y'all may be too young for that. But like…

Tarah: No one’s too young for the Muppets!

Jennie: Right? Like, I, I just feel like…they're constantly in my head. And so…I, for a lot of it, I've run like mitigation strategies around it. Like, I just try to not give them space. So, one of the things is, like the podcast. Like that's like the one where I can think of like the clearest strategies, like I've come across to deal with it is, after I get done recording this with Tarah, I will have the little voice in my head being like, “you said this wrong! You should have said this better!” And like, “you sounded stupid!” or like, “what are you doing? You don't know what you're talking about!” And so, I don't re-listen, right? Because all I will hear…like, Tarah and I had this amazing, lovely conversation, and I will hear like, oh, but did you hear, like this two second clip where you sounded like an idiot. Like, and that'll just, like, replay in my head. So like, my coping strategy is to, like, not give it space. So, I won't re-listen, unless I have to for like editing…Where I need to tell my editor that there's like a chunk we need to cut or something. So, I try to not give it space. And I really…just try not to listen to it. It's hard and it's hard. And like, I also find it hard cuz I feel like I work with so many fucking amazing advocates, like Tarah included. And I hear them talking about things, and I'm just like, “y'all are so talented and so smart. And I am not that person.” I feel like I…

Tarah: That’s literally what every single one of us is thinking.

Jennie: Right! And, and I think that's the important thing. Which is why I try to keep talking about it because I'm sure that some people feel that way about me. Like I may, I may never get to that point, but like…

Tarah: For sure!

Jennie: I'm sure that way to some people. And so like, we all are impressed by these amazing people we are surrounded with and find that intimidating and that feeds the voice. So like, I really just try to do what I can to not give it space.And that has, for most the part has been pretty successful. And then I've also learned, I think, I can't remember if I talked about this on the podcast or not, but, I have a really hard time with the word expert. It does not resonate with me. I cringe from it when someone's like, “you're a repro expert.” I'm like, “no I'm not!”Like, I really have a hard time with that. And it's, and it's really like that word. So, I, I had some coaching around podcasting, and I, and I came up with that cause like “you're a podcast expert!” and I'm like, “no! I'm not a podcast expert.” Like, I have this podcast, but I'm not an expert. And like, really, it's like the word. So. we were like looking up on this. Thesaurus, like, other options. And like, it really seems to be like just the word, expert, like, that makes me cringe. So, we came up with, I'm a reproductive health and rights maven. and I…

Tarah: I love the word.

Jennie: I love maven, and that one doesn't give me a full body cringe.

Tarah: I think, you know the question with expertise, right? Like, and it came from academia before it came from DC, and like expertise is this like heavily guarded word of like white male affirmation. And, like, so, like, I think one of the things I've…when I've thought that like, “oh, am I an expert in X, Y, Z,” right? Is like, well, first of all, like literate. Write down who is the expert then? Like, not like a person, but like what would it be to me to have this expertise to you? And…cuz if, if you think like it's only like 50 years of experience in the field, then it's like one woman and she's 80. Right? Like that's the only expert in this? Right? So, so one of the things is like, what are we thinking about who makes an expert? And then like, and who told us that's what expertise means, right? And how is that guarded? So that's what, I mean, that's like a highly academic exercise. That’s an extremely nerdy exercise. And, the way I think about…when I…with imposter syndrome is like, I don't know how to like train myself to not feel a certain way, but what I can do is say like, “what, like, white man is benefiting from me thinking this? Like what, who is benefiting when I think about this?” And it's not like, it's not people like, you know, who, who are also thinking that they're imposters, right?

Jennie: Right. Yeah.

Tarah: And like, I think that that's the question. Like, who benefits from, from me being like, “oh, well not next, or blah, blah, blah, blah.” Right? Or like, oh this is, you know, if not, I, there was…you know. It's true about everyone else, but oh, but not me though. Not me though. Right?

Jennie: Yeah. Right.

Tarah: And, and like, I'm like, oh yeah. Who…that's, that's been sold to us. And that's been sold to us, like in, particularly in professional spaces, by men. And now like, and I think there are women that will do that now too. And, which is just really disappointing. My white women get your shit together. But like those types of rarefied species, like the question is like, who benefits if you say that? Whether or not is true. Cause I'm like, I don't know. Am I an imposter? I have no idea.What does it mean to be an imposter? Like sure. But whether or not, like, what does it mean that that's what the definition meets, and like, who got to define that? So yeah. I don't know how to like, not have that thought except for to think like, this is just not useful.

Jennie: No. It’s not helpful.

Tarah: This is not useful.

Jennie: And, and I'm trying to not let it hold me back, right? So like, when it comes to, like, thinking of, like, looking at a job that I might apply for or something, and being like, “I'm not qualified for that.” What do you mean? Like, don't just sell yourself short.

Tarah: Mm-hmm

Jennie: Like, if you're, like, utterly unqualified, like, that's one thing. But, like, if it's, like, nickeling around the, like, margins…

Tarah: There’s loads of studies about that, right? Like there's loads of studies about who applies for what depending on their identity, both their gender and their race identity. And like, for, you know, this is gonna…in a shocking turn of events. like, women will not apply unless they meet like 95% of things listed on the thing, whereas men will apply if they meet 50. And then it also splits along racial lines too, right? So like, yeah. Who, who's benefiting when we're like, “I shouldn't apply for that. I only meet like 78% of the things.”

Jennie: Yeah. Exactly.

Tarah: There's the one thing I don't meet, right? Yeah. You…this is everyone listening. You are good for that job. Go do it.

Jennie: Just do it. And like, what's the worst that happens?

Tarah: They don't interview you, right? Or you do it and you fail! Like, okay.

Jennie: Next!

Tarah: I failed at loads of things.

Jennie: Yes!

Tarah: You gotta pay your rent, but that's like, you know, figure that part out. Yeah. No, no. That's, that's true. I, you know, one of these things is like, it doesn't go away, right? I think that, like, and you read…I don't tend to read, sort of, memoirs. I find it as sort of an odd genre, but you know, you read memoirs of people that you think, oh, this person for sure has it together.

Jennie: Will not be an imposter.

Tarah: Yeah. This, this person. That's what I mean when I, when I say someone's not an imposter. This person, you read the book and they're just like, I'm a total imposter. You're like, “Oh! Okay. So that's just made up.”

Jennie: This is definitely a, you fake it until you make it. Like, you just keep telling…You just, like…fine. Keep telling yourself you're faking it and keep doing it.

Tarah: Faking it is the making it.

Jennie: Yeah!

Tarah: That's what…there is…every once in a while, I'll think, okay, I need the person who actually does this. And then you look around and that person does not exist. You're like, “Oh. I am that person. Okay.” Well, I wish I felt a little more like an adult. I mean like I'm in my mid-forties and I'm still, like, I just thought being an adult would feel a lot more adult-y

Jennie: I thought I was supposed to know what I was doing now.

Tarah: I thought, yeah. And now I think back to my parents and they’re, you know, at their age and I'm like, oh my God, they had no idea. Because when you're a kid, you think, oh, they…like, parents. Really.

Jennie: They know it all.

Tarah: You disagree with them, obviously. You, you like, think they're wrong, but they've got it figured out. They just have the wrong answer to whatever you wanna be doing. And now I'm like, “oh no, they had no idea.” Like, and my mom was like, “yeah, we have no idea what we're doing. Why did you think that?” I was like, I thought adults knew what they were doing.

Jennie: That's why you were adults.

Tarah: That's why you're an adult.

Jennie: Like, there was one day, where all of a sudden, I was going to become this magical person…an adult.

Tarah: Yeah. Today you are a woman. Yeah…

Jennie: And she'll know all the things.

Tarah: Nope! And I'll know all the things. Yeah, no, I, um, it is uh, good news everybody out there! No one really knows…there is no mold. You can do it. You'll be great. You, this podcast has been such a joy. I mean, it's so, such a joy for the movement, such a joy for me and so many listeners. What are things that you listen to? Not your own. I, yeah, I would never, gosh, I can't listen to my own voice, partly cause, like, I just hear my mother.

Jennie: Yeah. It's like, cringe.

Tarah: Yeah. Yeah. I'm just like, “oh my God. My mother's coming right outta my mouth…” whom I love but did not want to sound like.

Jennie: Yes. So…

Tarah: So, when, when, other than this podcast. Some of the other good podcasts.

Jennie: Yeah, Y’all. I listen to so many podcasts, so I'll just, like, do a couple that I love. I really love Maintenance Phase with Michael Hobbes and Aubrey Gordon. It's like…I would say like, almost like the anti-wellness podcast. It's like debunking. Like, BMI is total bullshit and this is why.

Tarah: Oh yeah.

Jennie: Here's all this data for why it's wrong. And like, goes after like diets. There's, like, an amazing Dr. Oz episode. Like…

Tarah: Oh my God. What a quack.

Jennie: Uh, yeah. So like, amazing. I love that podcast. I also love You're Wrong About, which is like the same, but like about that different, right?

Tarah: Oh I’ve heard about that one!

Jennie: Like it's more pop culture moments, I would say. The one I just listened to today was about the McDonald's hot coffee case. And like…

Tarah: Oh yeah!

Jennie: Why, like, what people know about it is like…

Tarah: It's like totally wrong!

Jennie: It’s totally wrong. And, like, this woman was, like, seriously, seriously injured. And it became, like, this joke of like, well, duh, of course coffee's hot, but it was like… Way beyond. It was, like, almost boiling.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. My mom tells me all about this. So, I don't listen to that podcast, but my mom does…which is the same as listening to that podcast.

Jennie: Exactly, right? I love that. Okay. I'm, like, gonna have another recommendation. So, Cancel Me Daddy with Katelyn Burns and Oliver-Ash Kleine. They take on cancel culture, and like, why it's such…a joke and like, what are y'all talking about? Anyway. This week's episode…

Tarah: Cuz no one's been canceled…

Jennie: Yes!

Tarah: And they all make millions of dollars.

Jennie: They talk about the, the Cancel-Grift Economy, which is amazing. But this week's episode reached a special place for me. It had, funny enough, the host of, like, both of these other podcasts that I just talked about, Michael Hobbs on it, talking about…the trial. Which I have been avoiding, like the plague.

Tarah: Oh, this has been crazy. I mean, the amount that this society hates women is out of this world.

Jennie: Yeah. So he really takes on…

Tarah: Like, it is outta this world.

Jennie: Y'all this is like the most clear cut case of abuse, like, the most well documented.

Tarah: Yeah!

Jennie: And like, if you read the like British court case, which he did, like, he's like…anyway. It was just, like, really great. I, for like health reasons, like, just mental health reasons have, like, checked out. I can't follow it. But I have been shocked by some of the things I've seen people that I know, like, post on social. And I'm just like, really all, like…

Tarah: It’s like an international gaslighting.

Jennie: Yeah. It, it leads into like a couple things of, like, the…people don't really understand intimate partner violence and, like, all the ways it expresses itself. And like…The whole range of it…

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie:And…misogyny. Like, it's just, like, this, like, crash course in all of it at the same time. So I really love that…And then, yeah.

Tarah: Let me pause for two reasons. One, so that if your listeners are wondering, like, do I understand what intimate partner violence is? Do I like, am I in a situation that I maybe didn't think was intimate partner violence? Because it didn't fit some, like, really clear-cut definition I had in my mind. I just wanna remind people that they can call the national domestic violence hotline anytime at 1-800-799-7233, to talk with someone confidentially. Whether or not you think right in this moment, “Oh, it's not that bad.” So, just reminding people of that.

Jennie: Ugh. “Not that bad.” Jesus Christ.

Tarah: Yeah. it's not, it's not this thing, which is clearly domestic violence.

Jennie: Thank you. I appreciate that.

Tarah: So it's not…I just want to remind people that, like, it is out there. Talk if you’re in a safe space.

Jennie: Talk. They have a chat on their website.

Tarah: There's chat. Super easy. And like, get some more information. And also, so that you have more information about what you might be seeing in, in other people…And, and how you can support. Jennie, these are all extremely educational podcasts, and I am, I've got to say…personally and deeply disappointed.

Jennie: Okay! so then the next one I was gonna say was, um, How Did This Get Made? I love that podcast.

Tarah: Oh fantastic! Yes!

Jennie: Uh…yes. No, that makes me super happy. And then, You Must Remember This by Karina Longworth. I grew up watching, like, a lot of old Hollywood movies cuz that is my mother's jam. Like, if there is a Cary Grant movie, I'm sure I had seen it. That is, like, her favorite. I was joking when I came back from being in Wisconsin at Christmas time that I forgot that movies came in color. So, uh, I really love the, You Must Remember This podcast, which looks at old Hollywood. I mean, although right now she is looking at, uh, sex in the eighties. So, it's sex on screen in the eighties, so also very on brand. Yes.

Tarah: How Did You Get Made is a podcast where they look at movies that are, like, so absurd…

Jennie: Yes!

Tarah: And then they just talk about them being like, “how did this happen?” And it's amazing. It is so hilarious.

Jennie: It’s just so funny.

Tarah: Our, like, our pop culture is…oof

Jennie: Yeah. I love that podcast. They're all so funny. I guess I'll stop there. Yeah.

Tarah: It's important. It's important to have outlets. I mean, it's important to learn. It's always important to learn. Everybody, go keep learning. And it's important to have good outlets where you can actually just laugh your head off at, like, really bad cinema.

Jennie: Mm-hmm. And some of them are, like, so bad. I'm like, “well now do I need to see this?” Because, like, it sounds, like, horribly terrible.

Tarah: Oh for sure! And we should, like, we should do a viewing party, actually, together. When we're feeling like…When the caseload is down or we'll do it outside…like the…in these COVID times… And then like, do it, listen to the thing and then do a screening. That’d be fun, that’d be a fun thing.

Jennie: There’s, like, some with dinosaurs that I've just been like…what? What is?

Tarah: They’re bonkers. And you think to yourself, this can't possibly get made. And then you remember…every David Hasselhoff movie

Jennie: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

Tarah: So…yeah. Highly recommend. I am much less erudite in my podcasting. I, I don't listen to a ton of podcasts. I listen to yours, and I listen to Dear Hank and John, which is…

Jennie: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Tarah: John and Hank Green. I…yeah. Which is also funny and very sweet. It's like, it's about as sincere as I get, ever, in terms of like national sincerity. But, I love Gaze at The National Parks, G-A-Z-E at the national parks…Which is a podcast, which I always thought was G-A-Y-S the national parks, cuz that is also its brand. But if, if anyone even has a passing love of national parks, this is a great podcast. And then I listen to, like, a Star Trek improv podcast.

Jennie: Ooh. That sounds fun.

Tarah: Yeah. it's, it actually, it’s like, it’s done now, which makes me really sad cuz I know there's an end. I got it really late. Like it's really, it's older. But like, yeah. I, I love it. Like, so this is, again, I would come home…And I watch cartoons and I'm like, “No, no. You need to unplug.”

Jennie: Okay. So. I like…fun ones. I haven't started it yet. But, I've been like, I was thinking I wanted to do a re-watch of True Blood, which I never finished…but I was like…It got weird. And so I didn't do it.

Tarah: It got too scary for me.

Jennie: And so, but, there's now a True Blood podcast with the woman who played Pam and the woman who played Jessica. And I was like, oh my God, this sounds like something I would love to, like, watch an episode, listen to the podcast…

Tarah: Oh that’s a good idea. I watched some of true blood at the beginning and…it's got so intense. I was like…oh.

Jennie: Yeah. It got a little wild. And I was like, and I think I'm gonna check out now.

Tarah: Yeah. Like, again, I'm not…people…if people like it, great. Have at it. But I was like, holy moly! This is getting too crazy. I think part of that's age, right? I'm just aging out of anything sharp-edged these days. But I like, the other thing I love if you've never listened to [inaudible].

Jennie: Yes!

Tarah:Pump that right in my brain. Especially if I'm travelling, which, you know, like COVID, haven't done a load. But, like, I used to listen that all the time on planes. Cuz you, first of all, you put your earphones in you're like, please don't talk to me. This is the universal sign who don't talk to me. And then, like, his, he just like, the stories are so good that he chooses. And of course his voice is just so wonderful. He's such a good narrator. So, another good podcast to recommend to folks.

Jennie: Yeah. I also love it to like, go, going to sleep.

Tarah: After you listen to this one. Go find some of these others.

Jennie: Like I love, like, having podcasts, like playing when I’m going to sleep.

Tarah: Oh. Mm-hmm.

Jennie: So, I I've used that for that…And then there's one called Sleep With Me. That is like… Jennie: Basically, a guy gets on mic and he'll, like, recap, he's done like Star Trek episodes or he did, like, some Dr. Who episodes…And he just, like, talks and wanders and rambles. He's just like…

Tarah: He's got that sort of sweet little voice.

Jennie: Yeah. So that is the delightful for, like, trying to fall asleep podcast.

Tarah: I mean, these are good recs for everyone. Movement. Stay hydrated.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Stay, stay joyful. take some time off. Jennie, it has been such a joy to be able to talk with you. One of the major, obviously just for everyone's life, is the inability to sort of get together in person. And so, I'm missing you. Even though we actually work very close.

Jennie: I know!

Tarah: Our buildings are, like, two blocks away. But, but it's so good to talk to you, and I'm just so excited to be on your podcast and be able to, like, take the reigns so that you can actually tell us more instead of being the great interviewer, the great interviewee. So, thank you.

Jennie: Well, Tarah, thank you so much for doing this. I had so much fun talking to you. I mean, as we always do, and I cannot wait to have you back on soon, cuz y'all just released a new report…

Tarah: Yes.

Jennie: That I will have you come and talk all about cuz it is super important.

Tarah: Oh yeah. So that is yeah. We'll…everybody grab a glass of water, everyone and some snacks and then, and have…listen to a good, light podcast. Because then we'll talk about, you know, the sort of serious situation facing indigenous women here in the US.

Jennie: Exactly.

Tarah: But, but there's always something people can do, right? And that's, that's the other thing is like you learn and then you think, whoa, that's the most screwed up thing I've ever heard in my life.

Jennie: Exactly.

Tarah: And then you take action, and you do the thing. So, speaking of the most screwed up thing we've ever heard in our lives, everybody.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Stay safe, stay safe.

Jennie: Thank you. Thank you.

Tarah: Drink more water. Brace yourself. We're all in it in the long haul. This is our life's work.

Jennie: We will get through this.

Tarah: We'll get through this. Yeah. Thanks so much, Jennie. Thank you everyone who’s listening. Make sure you subscribe to this podcast that you shared on social media. Um, and that you come back here.

Jennie: My god. You’re hired.

Tarah: We'll see you then.

Jennie: Okay, y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Tarah. I am so, so grateful for her to do this. I really, really appreciate it. She is just the absolute best. So, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you, Tarah. With that. If you have anything you would like us to cover, or if you have any questions, you can always shoot me an email at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media @reprosfightback on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. Otherwise, I will see y'all in two weeks! For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit us at our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at @reprosfightback and on Instagram at @reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and please rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. Thanks for listening!

take action