Trans Rights are Under Attack in Several States

LGBTQ+ people, overall, lack equal rights and access in the United States. In fact, in most of the U.S., LGBTQ+ people face discrimination in housing, credit, public accommodations, jury service, and other public arenas that don’t directly involve marriage or employment. It’s also no secret that Republicans around the country have been passing legislation for years that attacks the health and rights of transgender people. Charlotte Clymer, writer, LGBTQ+ advocate, and Director of Communications and Strategy at Catholics for Choice, talks to us about how state attacks on transgender rights are contributing to the lack of protections for LGBTQ+ people in the U.S.

 This year state-level anti-trans policies have fallen into three buckets: those that prevent transgender youth from receiving lifesaving, gender-affirming medical care, those that prevent transgender youth from competing in sports, and religious liberty exemptions. Arkansas, Mississippi, and Tennessee are states that have formally passed these types of legislation so far this year. In direct opposition to these egregious attacks on LGBT health and rights, the Equality Act is a comprehensive bill that, at the national level, would ban discrimination against LGBTQ+ people in every aspect of the public square.

Since the Biden administration has taken office, there have been a number of protections that have been passed to support LGBTQ+ people. Immediately, the Biden administration signed a flurry of executive orders that made it illegal to discriminate against LGBTQ+ people within the federal government, overturn the ban on trans people in the military, and appoint a number of LGBTQ+ people to government posts. To expand upon its progress, the Biden administration should release every LGBTQ+ (and specifically, trans and non-binary) undocumented immigrant from ICE and CPB custody, ensure that incarcerated trans people maintain their rights and wellbeing, and create an LGBTQ+-specific equality commission or council, and strengthening reporting in the State Department’s international Human Rights Reports on LGBTQ+ safety around the world.

Links from this episode

Catholics for Choice on Twitter
Catholics for Choice on Facebook
Charlotte Clymer on Twitter
S. 393 – The Equality Act
Information on the Equality Act from the Human Rights Campaign

transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Welcome to this week's episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So I cannot believe that I have been recording the podcast from home for over a year now. So first thank you all for being so patient in dealing with all of the audio that has been maybe less than ideal, cat's crying in the background or not great phone connections or any number of various issues that we've had to deal with since I can't record in person still. I am just real grateful that for everybody who has been so patient dealing with technical difficulties for guests who have had to deal with this method of recording, so having to try something else and I just, everybody has been so wonderful and so flexible. So, thank you to everybody who's been on and has been super flexible. And thank you to all of the audience who has been just so gracious about, you know, dealing with some bumps in the road. As we have been recording at home instead of our little in-office studio. But yeah, it's really hard to believe I've been doing this from my home for a year. And in that year, there has been a lot going on and I've talked about a lot of things on the podcast, but I feel like one of the constant things that I have talked to y'all about has been baking. And that has been, I had started making bread and stuff…I don't know, I guess like three years ago now, two and a half years ago, something like that. And it has been my constant go-to during the pandemic. It has been really nice that I have like baked something generally every Sunday and generally something that I could eat for breakfast then that whole week. And I've tried so many different things that challenged me and were new and exciting, and I've kind of had a lull on that.

Jennie: Like I'm still making stuff, but I haven't tried anything new in a little while. I mean, I've tried something new. I haven't tried anything challenging for a little while and then keep every Sunday, like having great intentions of like trying something new or different. And, you know, I just keep being like, ‘Ugh, I don't want to put the effort in.’ So I'm excited to start to think about doing something new and exciting. Again, that's challenging to me for a bake. I don't know what that bake is yet. I really loved when I was trying recipes that were scary to me. That was the first time I made English muffins or bagels, or when I really was scared to try making the pain au chocolat. That was terrifying to me. And you know, I've mostly had really great successes. My most recent one was a little bit of a fail in that it stuck my pan. I made it-- was supposed to be applesauce bread. It's a quick bread and I didn't have applesauce, but I had Apple butter and I used that, and it turned out amazing minus it stuck to the pan. So it was a really ugly beauty, but it tasted delightful and I will absolutely make it again. But I think that's a little bit of what I get for getting a fancy, like fluted pan that was like all pretty. It gave it way too many places to stick. So next time I'll have to be extra, extra careful in greasing and flowering my pan so that it comes out prettier, but it was really good. And I guess that's kind of like life, right? Like just because it looks bad, doesn't mean it's not great. And you just roll with things. So that was fun. I think I'm going to keep the intro a little short this week because we have a long interview. Um, but I'm really excited for y'all to hear it cause it's super, super, super important right now. We're going to be talking about all of the state level attacks that are happening to trans rights right now. It's a really important topic. And I think there's a lot of confusion about what's happening. And a lot of misunderstanding these attacks are really horrible, but you know, they're a little complicated sounding like they might not sound terrible off the bat when you first hear them, they're really pretty devastating. And I just want to make sure that our, my audience, that we all are understanding what's happening and have a greater understanding. So we take this episode to really talk about what is happening in the states and I'm so, so happy to have with me, Charlotte Clymer, a writer and LGBTQ advocate and also the director of communications and strategy at Catholics for Choice on to talk to us today about all the attacks that are happening at the state levels. And it was a very wonderful conversation and I hope y'all enjoy.

Jennie: Hi Charlotte. Thank you so much for being here today.

Charlotte: Hey Jennie, how are you doing?

Jennie: Good. I'm really excited to have, I mean, a horrible conversation, but like it's such an important conversation.

Charlotte: I agree. And thank you for making the time for it. I really appreciate that.

Jennie: So Charlotte, do you want me to take a second and introduce yourself and include your pronouns before we get started?

Charlotte: I will absolutely do that. My name is Charlotte Clymer. My pronouns are she/her/hers. I am a writer and LGBTQ advocate and in my day job currently, I am the director of communications and strategy at Catholics for Choice.

Jennie: And you should absolutely be following her on Twitter. That's where I know Charlotte, she's amazing there and I’m only fan-girling a little bit.

Charlotte: Well thank you for that. I appreciate that. Thank you for all y'all do at the Population Institute. It's so critical and your labor really helps a lot of folks.

Jennie: Thank you. Okay. So there is a lot of horribleness happening right now around anti-trans policies in the states, but I think a lot of people maybe don't understand what all the various policies are or why they're bad. So I thought it'd be a great opportunity to have you on today to talk about what's going on and what these policies are.

Charlotte: Yeah, sure. That sounds great to me. So, let's start from the opposite. I think there are a lot of folks in this country who don't realize that LGBTQ people overall lack equal protections in this country because we've had two big Supreme Court cases that have really framed people's perceptions about LGBTQ quality. So, we have the same-sex marriage ruling from a couple of years ago. Well, more than a couple of years ago in 2015, which made same-sex marriage legal throughout the United States. And then we had another Supreme Court case last year that made it illegal to discriminate against LGBTQ people in employment. Now these are great, right? Huge landmark cases. They're now enshrined in law. We're not going back like… same-sex marriage is safe. Employment protections are safe. That was actually kind of a surprise that chief justice John Roberts and associate justice Neil Gorsuch sided with the liberal faction of the court to protect LGBTQ people against discrimination in the workplace, which is great. But the drawback of that is that it's really lured. I would say people who are not LGBTQ into this sentence, complacency surrounding LGBTQ equality. So, let me give you an example. Year before last, there was this poll done by writers and they asked two questions. The first was, do you support non-discrimination protections for LGBTQ people? And as every other poll showed overwhelmingly, the respondents said yes, including I think more than half of Republicans or about half of Republicans/conservatives. So, you know, this is a very popular thing, Americans across the political spectrum believe it should be illegal to discriminate against LGBTQ people or at least of anti-discrimination protections in place. The second question was, do those protections exist? And half of the respondents said, yes, and they don't exist at all at the federal level. You know, those two Supreme Court cases only deal with those two things, marriage and employment. Here's the bad thing. In most of the United States, LGBTQ people still face discrimination in housing credit, public accommodations, jury service, really just every other aspect of the public square that doesn't directly involve marriage or employment. So you can get married on Saturday. You can go to your job on Monday, but then you could be denied housing in most of the United States because you're LGBTQ and it's even worse for trans people. There are more states in which trans people lack those protections than folks who are not trans and happened to be lesbian, gay, bisexual. So, you know, right now we not only lack those comprehensive protections, but we've seen the Republican party and I don't know how partisan we can get on this podcast. So, I apologize, but I guess I am just stating the facts here. The Republicans are really leaning into anti-trans messaging.

Charlotte: Now for the past decade, they've done this in various ways, right? There was the bathroom bill in North Carolina that backfired completely, and it wound up with a Democrat being elected governor of North Carolina. That's how badly it backfired for Republicans. They have tried to put anti-trans initiatives on the ballot and they have been defeated almost every time. We've seen a ton of trans people, trans and non-binary people elected to public office across the United States, Danica Roem, Virginia of course defeated a Republican, one of the most anti LGBTQ Republicans in the country about four years ago.

Jennie: That felt good.

Charlotte: Yeah, it was great. Yeah, it was wonderful. And Sarah McBride became the first openly trans person to be elected as state Senator in US history. So there are all these cool things happening, but Republicans really feel that there's an angle here. That's going to work for them. And so you've seen them kind of go through several iterations of this and trying to figure out how to weaponize transphobia at the ballot box. Now last year there was this whole internal debate within the Republican party and within the Trump administration, how this should be done, you know, surprisingly, there were a number of key Republican figures who warned people not to do it. Ronna McDaniel, who I disagree with on just about everything. I was warning the Trump administration, not to do this because she felt a backfire. I think Ivanka Trump said something along those lines as well. So, there was a big split, but now that we're past the 2020 election, it is abundantly clear that Republicans are going all in. And we see that at the state level, something like 60 pieces of legislation have been introduced in state legislatures across the country that are specifically anti-trans most of these falls into two categories. Either they seek to ban trans children from competing in sports that align with their authentic gender identity, or they are seeking to ban gender affirming health care for trans kids, essentially, you know, all trans kids. So, everyone under the age of 18, who is trans, they're trying to ban within state borders, access to gender affirming care. So far, we've seen three of these bills passed in Arkansas, Mississippi, and Tennessee. Those are the big ones right now. Now we can get to the science of all that real quick and we will. I promise, but that's really what we're seeing right now is this just atrocious, really widespread campaign to attack trans children, which is horrific. And it's not based on science or merit. It's not based on logic. It really is weaponizing the unknown about trans people for political purposes. And, you know, unless we're able to push back hard against this and then bring up the fact that we are right on the science, we are right on the humane aspects of this. It's going to be very damaging to trans children specifically.

Jennie: And I think, I guess that just makes me think before we get to the policies, it's so extra upsetting that they're going after trans kids, because trans kids are already going through so much with the high rates of suicide. And so many things that it's just this extra layer of horribleness. I was going to say evil, but I guess yeah, kind of evil, but they're attacking this vulnerable group.

Charlotte: That's right. Yeah. And I mean, it's not, you know, the thing is we live in an era of misinformation. Yeah. And most often we see disinformation discussed in the context of elections or, you know, the Q and non-conspiracy theories that go around. But really some of the greatest damage is done to vulnerable communities with this information, whether it's, you know, lies that are told about the Black Lives Matter movement or reproductive health and freedom, but you know, trans people are specifically, you know, our community has been specifically targeted with this disinformation because the wider public knows so very little about trans healthcare and trans identities. You know, we're often conflated with sexual orientation, which has a completely different thing that Republicans see this, and they're like, well, if we can convince people that this is a matter of quote unquote biological men is the phrase they use waking up and deciding they're gonna play women's sports, and just being able to play women's sports. That way we can scare people into going against us and, and just making this the next front in the ongoing, absolutely absurd culture wars that happen.

Jennie: So I guess that brings us to the first bucket of bans we've seen. And actually, it's one of the first that I've heard combat through people that I know outside of like the LGBTQ context. I have family in Wisconsin, and I had them reach out to me because Wisconsin has one of these that have been proposed, and that's the attacks on trans youth playing sports. And it's generally put in the context of protecting women in sports. And so, they felt like they needed clarification from me on what was going on because they had this inkling that it was probably a bad thing, but they wanted to check to make sure that I could clarify why these laws were problematic. So let's do that. Why, why is this a problem?

Charlotte: You know, usually the argument is one of two things, either that trans girls and women in middle school and high school, I should say, trans girls and young women are stealing away, quote unquote, scholarship spots from cisgender girls, or that they present a threat of safety to cis girls and young women in high school. And neither of these are true, neither of them. So, the NCAA has had this policy in place, of trans inclusivity since 2011 almost. Well, actually. Yeah. I mean, it's, it's near a decade now that the NCAA has permitted trans people to compete openly in their authentic gender identity. And they're, they, you know, they have other policies that outline this. The most pertinent one to this conversation is that, you know, a trans young woman can compete on a woman's team after she's done on a year of hormone therapy. And this works, this works, this is a smart, common sense policy. You know, unfortunately we don't have like, you know, the kind of widespread, in-depth just exhaustive science on this that we could, but at least from the data that we have, this is a policy that makes sense. And for 10 years, this has worked really well. The very few trans young women who compete at the college level have enabled to do so really without incident. There was a couple of years ago when a young woman, a trans young woman named CeCe Telfer won a national championship at the division two level for track and field. And she became this viral news story in a lot of conservative sites. And what they would do is, you know, because CeCe Telfer is a Black woman and because she has musculature and because she is a foot taller than most of our competitors, they would take these side-by-side shots of her next to a young white woman. And it was pretty clear what they're trying to do, which is what we always do to Black women athletes, regardless of whether they're cis or trans, it could be Serena Williams, it could be Simone Biles. There is this sense of, you know, masculinizing Black women in sports, especially elite Black women athletes and insinuating that they're taking performance enhancing drugs or somehow doping, right? Cheating, essentially. So, you know, they went with that old trope. What they didn't mention of course is that Cece Telfer competed in four or five other events and she didn't place in any of them. She lost all of them and only did she lose, but she lost by a lot. This is the one event where she, but these stories didn't mention that because it wasn't convenient to their thesis. The whole point was to scare the public into thinking that trans girls and trans young women are going to dominate women's sports. I have a question for you though, because this is one of the biggest debate points that they say, how many young trans women do you think have been awarded college athletic scholarships in the last 10 years, or really ever? I'm just curious.

Jennie: Well, I mean, if the Republicans are going at this heart, it has to be a lot. Right?

Charlotte: Right. I mean, it has to be enough where it's clearly a problem. I have not found… I have not found a single instance, not one example of an openly trans young woman being awarded a college athletic scholarship. Now we do have examples of openly trans women who might've been recruited for a men's team somehow. And they might've gotten like a partial scholarship or scholarship when they were in the closet. And we do have examples, I believe of young trans men who have been awarded a college athletic scholarship, but not a single example of a young woman. Um, so, you know, clearly, it's a meritless argument, but they keep pushing it because it's so potent. It's the weaponizing of fear against, you know, especially upper middle class and higher white families who want their young daughter to do well and scaring them into believing that a young trans woman is going to steal something from their daughter by competing. And there's just no evidence of this at all. The biggest example of where this is being fought out is this case out of Connecticut, there are three families representing three young cis-gender women who are suing the state of Connecticut over young trans women competing in track and field in that state. And the irony of this is that a day after they filed this lawsuit, one of these young cis women beat a young trans woman at the state level, in a competition. And of course, you know, no one reports on that. No one mentioned that because it, because again, it's inconvenient and completely undermines their main thesis that, you know, somehow there are all these young trans women coming into high school sports and dominating, and there's just no evidence of this.

Charlotte: Now I want to get to your other questions, but I want to point out something else here is that there are also examples, ironically of young trans men who want to compete on men's teams, but they're forced to compete on women's teams in certain states that disallow or ban trans kids from competing in the score that aligns with their gender identity. So, a couple of years ago in Texas, where it is currently illegal for trans kids to compete in sports that align with their gender identity, there was this young trans boy on a high school wrestling team, and he wanted it to be with the boys. He wanted to compete with the other boys, but he wasn't allowed. So, he was forced to compete on the girls’ team, even though he has gone through the appropriate medical process, he's taking hormones, he's doing everything that a young trans person should do when they're going through that process. And he's kicking all across the board. He basically just ran to a state championship and won it, you know, easily. And people are complaining and saying, well, this isn't fair. You know, I mean, this kid shouldn't be allowed to compete when he clearly has an unfair advantage, but that's the law, he wants to compete with boys. The same social conservatives are forcing them to compete with girls and that he beats the girls, and they complain about that too. Um, and this is always what they do. This is always what they do. You know, when it was the bathroom bills, it was the same issue. You would have these trans boys and men who, I mean clearly, clearly presented as men clearly presented as boys. And they were forced to go use the girls or women's restroom. And that led to a lot of controversy because you'd have these male presenting people who would use the restroom and it would spark controversy or discomfort. And social conservatives were essentially forced to answer well, you know, if they're…if it's turning out that they're making women uncomfortable, you know, what do you suggest they do? Where should they go? You don't want them to use the men's restroom because their gender identity aligns with that. But now you don't want them to use the women's restroom because it makes women uncomfortable. So, you know, tell us what to do here. And of course, social conservatives have no answer because that's not the point. There's no logic to this. It's all about weaponizing fear of the ballot box and pushing this completely ridiculous narrative that trans people present some kind of threat to, especially girls and women. And there's just no evidence for it. That was a long rant. I'm sorry.

Jennie: I mean, well, worth it. And you got to the point that I was really thinking of is that all these attacks really seem to be centered on saying it's about protecting women and girls and I, as a cis white woman, I find that particularly disgusting. Like I have no problem with the trans woman using the women's bathroom. Like I don't, to me, it just, I don't understand. Like, it just makes no sense to me, like let trans kids play sports, play sports with the gender they identify with it, just all of this boggles my mind. Um, and please don't do it in my name.

Charlotte: Yeah. Yeah. And that's the funny thing, you know, this is anecdotal to some extent, but I get hate mail all the time from people. You know, that's just how it is when you this kind of platform and you're a trans woman and overwhelmingly they come from cisgender men-- overwhelmingly the most vocal allies, the people who really just have no idea why this is a problem or women because cis men are out here pretty openly, blatantly assaulting, harassing raping women. And getting away with that, you know, not held accountable, often swept under the rug, whether it's on a college campus or in the military, or really any other avenue in the public square, or, you know, whether it's a former president of the United States sexually assaulting 29 women and not being held accountable for that. So, you know, if there were really an issue of a threat to women, it would be cis men getting away with this in so many different aspects of the public square. It's not trans women. And also, the polling that has been done on this show is that cisgender women, not just in the US, funnily enough, but in every other country in the world overwhelmingly support the rights of trans women, cis women. And when you bring this up, you're like, well, that's just one poll, but it's a number of polls that do this. And they can't reconcile with that because it completely undermines their argument that since women don't really view generally trans women as a threat, they've used cis men as a threat and trans women as also the target of those threats.

Jennie: Okay. So that's only one bucket of bills. I feel like this is going to be a long episode, sorry, y’all, but there's so much talk about, and we're not going to skip any of it. So, the next one is on bans on transition care for trans minors, to be able to talk about what those bills are and what they mean?

Charlotte: Yeah, sure. So these are bills that would essentially prevent any kind of gender affirming medical treatment for trans children. So, anyone under 18 cannot get gender affirming health care. And you know, this is everything from hormones to puberty blockers, to surgical treatment for the circumstances which been affirmed and validated by a physician. And it's based on, you know, not only a fundamental misunderstanding of trans healthcare, but a complete weaponization of the fear over trans identity and what it means for someone to transition overall. So, let's get this out of the way right now….There is no, you know, child under like 12 or 13 getting surgery or getting estrogen or testosterone supplements. That's, that's not a thing at all. Now what does happen for children is that they take something called puberty blockers. And this is a scientifically medically validated treatment that basically delays puberty and gives trans children and their parents enough time to decide how they want to proceed next. And once they stop taking puberty blockers, if they do it, just goes right back to normal, puberty comes in and proceeds as it normally would. And this is really what I assume. I mean, if I were thinking logically as an anti-trans person who wants to keep trans kids from transitioning, I would think this was a great thing because it isn't reversible medical practice that has been cleared by medical experts that would essentially delay the process for transitioning and give trans families more than enough time to decide how they want their kid to proceed. Here's the other thing that never gets mentioned, and it drives me absolutely up the wall. There are hundreds of thousands of sick children every year who also take puberty blockers, and they do this for various reasons. It could be kids with cancer. It could be kids with a rapid onset adolescence and development, you know, any number of medical reasons. There are all, these children who have been prescribed blockers for decades, and it was never a problem until trans kids started taking puberty blockers. And I guarantee you that the vast majority of lawmakers who are supporting these laws that are being considered right now, don't know that they don't know that says children take these two for them. Again, it's about striking fear in the hearts of voters who don't know anything about trans healthcare, and just are assuming that five-year-old six year old’s are being willed into the surgical room to have their bodies permanently altered, which is just this horrific, disgusting, completely insulting image that they foist on unsuspecting voters and the public who don't understand what it means to be a trans child, be the parent of a trans child, consult with medical doctors and go through the process of making sure that your child receives the healthcare.

Charlotte: They need to be who they are and to safeguard their lives. And then finally, and I'll promise, I'll stop talking here in second. But every major medical authority supports this, the American Medical Association, the American Psychological Association, the American Psychiatric Association, and the American Academy of Pediatrics across the board. You know, every major medical authority, the vast majority of doctors and other scientific experts, all support this. They believe that trans and nonbinary people and children should be affirmed and given all the gender affirming health care they need, I can go through that process of making sure it's done in a safe way with consultation, by a medical provider. This is settled. This is not even up for debate. This is something that medical experts are settled on, but again, Republican lawmakers don't care about that. They will push this nonsense that there are quote unquote only two genders and be don't even get me started on the number of levels in which that's inaccurate. But anyway, I keep talking. So, I'll stop because I know you have more.

Jennie: One because it's infuriating, but two, I think this was so important. I think you're right. So many people don't understand the process. They don't understand what's being talked about. And as much as we can demystify that and help people understand why gender affirming care is so important and so important for young people, I think that's a really important step.

Charlotte: Yeah, absolutely. I couldn't agree more. And you know, my thing is always deferring to the scientists. You know, when it comes to matters of science, you listened to the experts, that's what you should always do. And there is consensus in the medical and overall scientific community that trans people and non-binary people are real, that we are valid, that we correspond with everything that is known about science and that even the nitty gritty, specific science about the difference between sex and gender and how the sort of find is far more complicated than this absurd notion that there are quote unquote only two genders, because when people say that, by the way, when like, you know, Marjorie Taylor Greene has that, or has that sign outside her office, what she really means is that there are only two sexes. That's what she's trying to say. Cause she doesn't know what gender means. Um, but even that's inaccurate, there are more than two sexes. There are way more than two sexes, scientists know this, you know, there are a complexity of chromosomal outputs, anatomical features for people who are born. We don't even know the exact, full-scope comprehensive science on it yet, but what we do know there are way more than two sexes, but then you get to the gender piece and gender is just infinitely complex, infinitely complex. But you know, it's so interesting to me that when it comes to cis people, we don't really have this larger societal…over validating or invalidating the gender identities or expressions of cisgender people. So, for example, you know, if we were talking about cisgender men and we were to take your group of 10 cis men and put them on a spectrum or a ranking of, you know, least masculine to most masculine based on how they correspond with what society generally identify as masculinity with the characteristics, you know, that would be seen as really counterproductive. It would be seen as insulting. There would be a lot of hurt feelings over that, but we don't do that, right. I mean, there are some men who of course engage in that kind of talk. And they're typically looked at as, you know, dorks and clowns, but you know, otherwise they're, we're not doing this thing where we assess the individual masculinity of men in this comprehensive way that limits them, and gate keeps them out from society. We do this with trans people constantly, you know, and it's, it's just so fascinating to me. Everyone uses pronouns. Everyone has a gender identity, but it's only trans people who get this ridiculous level of scrutiny, even though we're validated by the scientific community.

Jennie: Okay. So, one more bucket that I know, I don't know that we've seen a ton of right now, but I can feel it coming and we've already seen happening. And since you work at Catholics for Choice, I feel like is worth talking about, and that's religious exemptions to a lot of these things. Like I could feel it in that great Supreme court opinion from the spring. Like I could just feel the looming religious liberty case coming up that was going to take away a lot of those protections around LGBTQ work protections. So maybe we want to talk a little bit about some of the religious exemption stuff we've seen.

Charlotte: Right? So there's a big case being considered right now. It's Fulton v. City of Philadelphia. And it basically is a question of whether or not a religious organization has to abide by a municipalities anti-discrimination law. So, it says a Catholic adoption agency in Philadelphia that turned away, LGBTQ parents incited their religious freedom, so to speak. And it went to the courts and, you know, was, it was heard by the Supreme Court. And we should get some kind of decision by June. Now this will not only affect just this Catholic agency, Catholic adoption agency in the city of Philadelphia. This will really be, you know, indicative of what's to come and how the Supreme Court is going to decide on religious freedom cases moving forward. And it's going to likely give some kind of invalidation or validation for the expansion of religious quote unquote religious freedom laws by Republican lawmakers that are being introduced. Meanwhile, you have this thing surrounding the Equality Act. Now, when I talked earlier about how in most of the United States, LGBTQ people lack anti-discrimination protections, the Equality Act would solve that. It is a comprehensive bill that bans discrimination against LGBTQ people and every aspect of the public square all throughout the United States. So, you know, discrimination in housing discrimination and jury service, public accommodations, education, across the board from sea to shining sea, LGBTQ people would have protection from discrimination because you currently, that's clearly not the case. Now, before I move on with that, I wanted to point out really quick that, you know, a lot of your listeners probably saw in January when President Biden signed this executive order that bans anti LGBTQ discrimination in the federal government. Now my worry. And I think that, you know, it's a really considerable worry, especially among a lot of activists right now, is that it would be taken to mean that his executive order applied to everywhere in the United States. And it doesn't, it only applies to the purview of the federal government. Now that would be great if it weren't for all of these state laws and state jurisdictions in which that executive order does not apply. So, you know, if you were to have like, I don't know, some kind of program overseen by the Department of Housing and Urban Development and to discriminates against LGBTQ people that would be illegal under this executive order because it's a federally run program. It has federal funds, et cetera. But if it were, you know, say in Missouri and this trans person wanted to go to a shelter and it didn't receive federal funds and it was under that state jurisdiction, you know, this housing shelter would be permitted to deny access to that trans person and cite them being a trans person as the reason to basically turn them away.

Charlotte: So, the Equality Act, this piece of legislation would just end all of that completely across the board. It is the most comprehensive civil rights piece of legislation in recent memory has overwhelming support. The vast majority of Americans supported including more than half of Republicans, you know, widely supported among religious organizations outside of white evangelicals that is widely supported among businesses. I mean, just enormously popular. And when it does go to the Senate floor, eventually in the next month or two, you're going to see a number of Republican senators who vote for it, who knows how many at this point, but you know, at least probably three or four will vote for it, which is a lot for this current Senate, but how that applies in the future to all this religious freedom stuff coming up is kind of up in the air. We don't know yet because there are going to be a lot of religious freedom cases moving forward in these courts and then going to the Supreme Court for consideration. And we're worried about that. We're worried about how that affects the way that LGBTQ people and other marginalized communities are treated.

Jennie: Yeah. I'm glad you brought it to the Equality Act because that is a little bit of at least good news. It passed the House, and the Senate is going to take it up. Hopefully we could see it get passed. I don't know that I have a lot of hope for that, but it would be an important step because like you mentioned in the Biden administration took executive action, but some of that was just reversing executive action from a previous administration. And I would hate to see protections of trans people and LGBTQ people becoming this football that becomes like a lot of the repro stuff that just between administrations flips back and forth. And that’s not the way to protect people.

Charlotte: I couldn't agree more. And you're absolutely right. Like if a Republican gets elected, especially in the mold of Trump in 2024, that all goes away overnight, they'll sign executive orders, making it completely permissible to discriminate against LGBTQ people in the federal government. And they'll roll over all these other protections too. And by the way, that includes trans folks in the military who are currently serving, you know, the ban was overturned by executive order in January, but there's no federal law that makes that concrete. It's not like don't ask, don't tell which was passed by Congress and signed by the president. And it would take an act of Congress to overturn it. You know, all this stuff right now is very, very vulnerable to an incoming Republican administration. Should that happen? And so, we need to keep that in mind cause you're right. It's just like all the repro stuff, whether it's, you know, the global gag rule or the Hyde amendment or the Helms amendment, you know, I mean, well, those are the pieces of legislation, but you know, the executive orders that every Republican administration ends up doing on repro, it's going to happen with LGBTQ rights too. So, we got to keep that.

Jennie: Okay. So, we've already touched on some of this, but the Biden administration has done some good things. So, because it's talk about good news for once.

Charlotte: And, you know, and, and I got to say, I predicted last year that, uh, the Biden administration would be the most pro LGBTQ ever with all the respect to President Obama who did wonderfully for LGBTQ people that are in his tenure, within the constraints that he had. But, you know, President Biden got off to an excellent start, you know, immediately issued an executive order. And that first raft of executive orders that, you know, made it illegal to discriminate against LGBTQ people within the federal government's, uh, purview, overturn the ban on trans people in the military, which is great, uh, pointed a number of LGBTQ people to government posts, including people to judge who was the first openly LGBTQ person to be confirmed by the Senate to presidential cabinet. Dr. Rachel Levine became the first openly trans person to be confirmed by the Senate to any, any government post ever, and is now the highest ranking, openly trans person in American history and our government. So, there've been a lot of great advances so far, but there are things that need to be left on things that, you know, remain to be done that needed to be done. So, one thing that could really be helpful is getting the Equality Act passed, right? Like that would be the big enchilada. That would be the big one that would just overnight change the lives of so many LGBTQ people across the country. But there are a lot of smaller things that could be done to by executive order. For example, I would, if I were in the Biden administration and telling, you know, President Biden exactly what he should do: release every LGBTQ person, but specifically every trans and nonbinary undocumented immigrant right now from the custody of ICE and CPB, because they are refugees specifically because of their LGBTQ status. And they are the most vulnerable to discrimination. We know that trans women specifically who are undocumented have been harassed and assaulted in the custody of CPB and President Biden with a sweep of his pin could end that overnight and make it so that you know, these folks and their kids could have a better life. And, you know, our country where these protections, aren't where they need to be. But at least they're workable. They're livable with what we have. Another thing you could do. And I expect this will be done quite soon is ensuring that trans people will have all the rights they had before the Trump administration in regard to incarceration. So, that trans people are incarcerated in facilities that align with their gender identity, this, you know, surprisingly enough to a lot of people. Cause I always surprise people with this fact—that it was actually started under the Bush administration. The Bush administration was the one who started, you know, keeping trans folks, you know, kept with the facilities that aligned with our gender identity that was expanded and reaffirmed by the Obama administration.

Charlotte: And then Trump, you know, overdid that overnight with an executive order. Another thing that President Biden could do is create a specific LGBTQ equality commission or council that advises across the board on, you know, not only LGBTQ issues overall, but certainly the things facing the trans community. One of the biggest issues of which is the ongoing epidemic of violence against trans people, specifically Black and brown trans women. So, you know, last year there were at least 37 openly trans Black and brown women who…who are murdered in the US that was the most ever last year on record, deadliest year on record for trans nonbinary people. And since I believe 2012, as far as the data goes, it's over 200 trans and nonbinary people who have been viciously murdered. A lot of these go unsolved. A lot of times, you know, these folks are not respected in their deaths or their authenticity, like their authentic gender identity. And they are most vulnerable to this kind of violence because of homelessness because of lack of employment options, because of, you know, the intersection there with systemic racism, then, then experienced by Black and brown trans women. So, you know, this is something that could be addressed with the kind of smart policy analysis that would be done by an LGBTQ equality council or task force. And I trust President Biden will get this done. I know that there are a lot of big prompts right now, especially with COVID, especially with, you know, the, our economy as how it is, but it does need to be done. And so, if you're in the Biden administration right now, and you're listening to this, these are really easy policy ideas that could be done overnight if President Biden really went for it.

Jennie: I know on the global scale, I know that groups would also really like to see LGBTQ also put back in the human rights reports. The Trump administration really cut back on reporting in the country reports on attacks on LGBTQ rights overseas. And those reports are really important because they are often used when people are trying to become refugees to the US and getting humanitarian assistance. And if there's nothing listed in those reports specifically showing that there are rights violations happening in those countries, it's much harder for them to gain protections coming to the US so it's really important to see the LGBTQ sections become more fully reported in those reports again.

Charlotte: Yeah. And I'm really glad you brought that up because you know, the international space right now is just, Oh my God, it's just, it's nightmarish. The way that LGBTQ people around the world are being targeted and countries on every continent and part of this, believe it or not, you know, stems from the signal sent by the Trump administration. I have talked and met with LGBTQ activists around the world in Africa and Europe and Russia, you know, in South America. And all of them have said that, you know, the Trump administration's open attacks on LGBTQ people really gave this license to world leaders who were anti LGBTQ behind closed doors that really the freedom to attack LGBTQ people out in the open, knowing that there wouldn't be retribution from the US; this of course was exacerbated during Nikki Haley's tenure as ambassador to the UN. And when she, you know, essentially led this walkout of the US delegation during protections that were voted on for LGBTQ people, I mean, it just, it goes on and on. And especially, you know, right now with this horrific epidemic of violence against LGBTQ people in Chechnya, you know, gay men who are being abducted and ostensibly murdered, as far as we know by the Chechnyan government and not held accountable by the US government under Trump. So, you know, we got a lot of work to do. There were people being killed around the world. And, you know, despite the Trump administration's performative nonsense of supposedly trying to decriminalize homosexuality around the world, there is no evidence they did any work on that at all. It seems that they did, but, you know, they went for what sounded like the most reasonable thing they could on the surface level, which is, you know, basically to criminalizing the act of homosexuality, which they felt would play well with Republican base…And when they knew that, you know, LGBTQ people were being targeted in those countries, in which, you know, Trump has friends, whether it's a Vladimir Putin, you know, or I forget that guy's name and Turkey, forgive me, President of Turkey, the way he's going after LGBTQ people, like dictators. And they've just looked the other way. And they've also the, you know, Trump had also discouraged or prohibited embassies and these countries from honoring LGBTQ people during pride month… essentially, I mean, it just goes on and on and the way they were able to get away with it, it's still jarring to me. [Inaudible]. I would stack it up against anyone, whether… I don't care if it's an 18th century presidential administration, uh, excuse me, a 19th, 19th century presidential administration, because even then you saw LGBTQ rights, just not discussed. You know, like if you go back to the 19th century with, you know, I don't know Lincoln or Buchanan's administration, you had gay men having these trysts behind closed doors and people would just, you know, ignore it. They would just pretend it wasn't happening. This is a presidential administration who aggressively went after LGBTQ people, every single day during his tenure relentlessly. And they were able to do it because the media was so focused on everything else going on. So again, I'm, I'm, I'm starting to ramble again. I apologize, but there's just so much to discuss here.

Jennie: Well, there's just so much that need still needs to be undone, and it's going to be the work of, I'm sure, not just four years trying to fix it, let alone move ahead and get to where we need to be.

Charlotte: I wanted to point out for the folks who are listening, that there is this perception that, you know, transgender people are kind of this new thing, almost like a fad, and I get it right? Cause if you knew nothing about trans identities and suddenly you saw a bunch of trans people out in the media space, you might think that it's some kind of, I don't know, fashionable thing now, and that's not true. I mean, trans people have been around for as long as there's been recorded human history, every country, every nationality, every race, every ethnicity, every religion, going back to ancient Greece, you know, ancient Africa, you know, everywhere around the world, trans people exist. The only difference is that now trans people feel more affirmed and coming out and feeling safe to be who they are to be who we are. So, you know, being trans or non-binary, it's not a choice. It's not something that people choose. The only choice that we make is whether or not to come out. And that depends on whether we're going to have the safety and dignity that we should be entitled to as any human being and being who we truly are. So, I want to point that out for folks who are confused by this and think that it's just this thing that happened overnight, because it's not, it's been around for a long time.

Jennie: So, I like to end by focusing on things that the audience can do. So, what can the audience do to help?

Charlotte: I am so glad you brought that up. So, here's the biggest thing y'all can do who are listening, make sure you call your senators and demand that they vote for the Equality Act when it comes to the floor, especially those of you who live in Maine, under Susan Collins, who supported the Equality Act in recent years, but because the human rights campaign endorsed her opponent, she's essentially not waffling on it to get back at them, which is terrible. So, make sure you call her office and demand that she put politics aside and protect LGBTQ people. Those of you who are in Alaska, you know, make sure you're, you're, you're pushing on Senator Murkowski to do the same thing. Those of you who live in any other of these swing states, where you have Republican senators who are closer to the middle, and really all of you who live in conservative states, just make sure you're calling these offices and pushing them to get this done. Because you know, this is the big piece. If we can get the Equality Act passed, everything is so much easier, so much easier overnight without the Equality Act, it's all piecemeal. And it would be like pushing 20 boulders up a hill instead of that one big boulder that if we all get behind it right now, it would overnight change the lives of tens of millions of LGBTQ people in this country. And really around the world. Folks who are looking to the US as the example of what LGBTQ equality should mean. So that's the big thing, but here's a smaller thing. And I would really encourage this, look at your state and local politics and get involved. Look, all politics is local. That's the famous saying by former Speaker of the House Tip O'Neill and it's absolutely correct. The vast majority of the work that you can do for LGBTQ equality can be done through your school board, through your city council, through, you know, your local governing board, whatever that might look like, it can be done through your state legislature. You know, putting pressure on lawmakers to either oppose these absurd anti-trans laws or to propose anti-discrimination laws that protect LGBTQ people and specifically trans people from that discrimination. There's just so much work that can be done. And I guarantee that any small group of people, I don't care how small it is, who have the tenacity and the heart, and really put their work and effort toward that can get some amazing things done at the local level, if they're willing to do it

Jennie: Well, Charlotte, thank you so much for being here today. I had so much fun talking to you.

Charlotte: Oh, I couldn't agree more, Jennie. And I'm so sorry I talk so much. I really wish I would have to answer some more questions, but you were fabulous and I love your cats, so.

Jennie: Okay. Everybody, I hope you enjoyed the conversation I had with Charlotte. I learned so much from Charlotte. It was really wonderful to have her. And thank you so much for being on. With that, I will see y'all next week. Actually, we're going to have a bonus episode-- next week is Black Maternal Health Week. So, we're going to do an episode talking about Black maternal health. So, stay tuned for a special bonus episode. And until then I will see all on our social.

Jennie: Thanks for listening everyone. And we'll see you on our next episode of RePROS Fight Back. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at RePROS Fight Back, or on Instagram at reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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