The U.S. is on the Wrong Side of Global Abortion Trends

Abortion rates around the world have stayed the same since the 1990s—except in countries where abortion restrictions have been newly introduced. Tarah Demant, Interim National Director of Programs, Advocacy and Government Affairs at Amnesty International USA, sits down to talk with us about the countries that have recently introduced abortion restrictions, the countries that have protected abortion care for decades, and what the future of global abortion access looks like moving forward.  

The Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization case that overturned Roe v. Wade in 2022 was a major loss for abortion rights. Even still, in the last 50 years, there is an unmistakable trend of the liberalization of abortion laws across the world. In fact, the vast majority of countries permit abortion in at least some circumstance, and these countries continue to move toward further liberalization of abortion laws. In all, 60 countries have liberalized their abortion laws, with only four countries having rolled back their abortion laws since 1994. The countries that have rolled back abortion laws include the United States, El Salvador, Nicaragua, and Poland. In each of these countries, maternal deaths rates, criminalization of people seeking healthcare, and rapidly spreading chilling effects among providers, has increased.

The Dobbs case has been and will continue to be used as a framework for general anti-rights policy around the world. Similarly, the U.S.’ narrative lead on anti-abortion ideology has the ability to influence other countries’ narratives and political confidence to pass equally restrictive laws. Dobbs and its ideology has also coincided with an emboldening of the global anti-gender and anti-LGBTQI+ movement.

Links from this episode

Tarah Demant on Twitter
Amnesty International USA on Twitter
Amnesty International USA on Facebook
Fos Feminista Fact Sheet: The Global Impact of the Dobbs Decision
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to RePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health rights and justice. Hi RePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her.

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So y'all, I am coming up to you off of a long weekend. I had off the Friday before the fourth, all the way through Wednesday, and it was so delightful to just have that time to relax and unwind. I didn't really do much. My kitties really hate fireworks, so I try to be home as much as I can during that time. So, we hung out around the house, the kitties, you know, hid during fireworks. Although it seemed like they were better than in previous years, so that was good. I did a ton of reading, which again is my happy place, so it was nice. It was just the perfect unwind. And now I feel, you know, ready to face all the things. I mean, I hope so. Yeah, so it's been a nice little quiet stretch here, which is delightful. And then to make everything much more exciting, I was able to record this week's interview in person and got to see my friend Tarah. And it was just what I needed to, you know, get through this last week, which was perfect. And I guess with that, let's just run to my interview with Tarah. It's a little long, so we'll just keep this part short. So, I talked to the absolutely amazing Tarah Demant with Amnesty International, and we talk about global abortion trends. And with that, let's go to my interview with Tarah. Hi Tarah! Thank you so much for being here today.

Tarah: Thank you for having me. I love being here with you.

Jennie: And y'all, I'm even more excited 'cause I am, like, staring at Tarah IRL. We are in-person.

Tarah: Live and back. [laughs].

Jennie: Oh my god!

Tarah: And it feels so good!

Jennie: Woooo! Okay, so unfortunately, we're gonna talk about, like, not exciting things, although some exciting things.

Tarah: Abortion’s always exciting.

Jennie: A mixed bag of there's some, like, good news-

Tarah: Yes.

Jennie: But not all good news.

Tarah: Yeah, yeah, yeah. We live in interesting times.

Jennie: Exactly. Oh! I see- again, lately my new thing has been a- I've been getting so excited to talk to people about very exciting topics that I just am like, “let's go!”

Tarah: Right.

Jennie: But maybe would you like to introduce yourself-

Tarah: [laughs]

Jennie: -to the audience before we just, like, run in?

Tarah: Yes.

Jennie: And include your pronouns.

Tarah: So, my name's Tarah Demant. My pronouns are she/her/hers. I am the National Director of programs for Amnesty International USA. But more important, I have been leading the gender work for Amnesty USA for a number of years and lead on our abortion work.

Jennie: Awesome. Thank you, Tarah! Ok. So, before we dig deep into any particular part of this, maybe we just, like, start with, like, a really top line of like: what does, like, the global abortion trend look like right now?

Tarah: Yeah. Well, so first let's talk about abortions themselves as opposed to law and policy. So, every year around 73 million abortions take place worldwide. And that number has stayed roughly the same since 1990. So, that's really important to think about as we look at states trying to restrict abortion laws, that ultimately abortion has stayed the same over the last, what is that? 30, 40 years [laughs].

Jennie: Oh God.

Tarah: Yeah. Getting old. Our pre-podcast conversation was about eighties music. And so, since the nineties, abortion rates have stayed the same. But where you see divergence is between countries with more restrictions and fewer restrictions, but in the opposite way that you might think that might go. So, for example, data from 1990 to 94 and 2015 to 2019, where we're pulling data sets, the average abortion rate in countries where there's generally legal abortion declined by 43%. In contrast, in countries with severe restrictions in abortion, the average abortion rate increased by around 12%. So, you're looking—and now these are, you know, very specific years—but in general, what you see across data sets is in countries that impose restrictions, abortion rates rise. And in countries where you see a liberalization of abortion laws, you actually see abortion rates fall. And that's not because somehow there's been like a change of mind as to like whether abortion is necessary, but because you also have a much more holistic understanding of services and laws that also help make sure that there's comprehensive sexual and sexuality education, that there's access to contraception and that people know how to make the best decision for themselves so that you don't have an unintended pregnancy, right? But again, the takeaway here is that abortion rates have stayed the same since the nineties, except for that they've risen in countries where they put abortion restrictions in place.

Jennie: Yeah, I think that was really helpful to explain. Cause I think that seems really counterintuitive to a lot of people. So, it's really, I think, important to help understand, like, why.

Tarah: Yeah. And I mean, what it shows us...the first thing it shows us is that abortion restrictions do the opposite of what they are so-called intended to do. So, in theory, an abortion restriction is meant to reduce the number of abortions. I wanna be really clear that that is not actually what abortion restrictions are meant to do. Abortion restrictions are meant to impose political power over populations. And we see the rise in abortion restrictions in spaces in which there's declining democracy. And we'll talk about that in a little bit. So, but in theory, if people who are arguing for abortions, like, we wanna cut down on abortions, abortion restrictions don't do that. And it's not just because they come alongside restrictions in comprehensive sex and sexuality education or restrictions in access to birth control but because they are fundamentally about making it harder for people to control their reproductive cycles. So, even if you don't have- even if you have a space where they restrict abortion, but you know, they don't restrict comprehensive sex and sexuality education, you're still seeing a rise in abortion rates because it is about restricting choices. And that puts a cooling and a freezing on people's ability to manage the full cycle of their sex and sexuality choices. So again, abortion bans don't stop abortion. And they actually then come with that increase whether or not there's like a specific alongside law that also tries to freeze comprehension healthcare or something. Now, there often is, right, because again, abortion bans and restrictions aren't about restricting abortion. They're about controlling people's bodies and controlling populations. And that often comes with a reduction in sex and sexuality education, a reduction in access to holistic healthcare. Because at the end of the day, an abortion doesn't live in a bubble. An abortion is a part of your sex and reproductive sexual and reproductive healthcare. And so, when you stop abortions, you're also stopping all the—or when you're trying to stop abortions, rather, you're not stopping abortions—but you are stopping all those other healthcares that come alongside that. So, that's where abortion is like globally. It just hasn't changed in the last, what would you say, 34 years? 34 years, we haven't seen a change in abortion rates. What we have seen is a change in the safety of abortion for people in countries that move to further restrict, which are the vast minority, that the vast minority of countries have moved to restrict. But that means that the vast majority of unsafe abortion happens in those countries with restrictive laws.

Jennie: Oh man, I keep talking about that being 30-some years ago. That just like-

Tarah: I know.

Jennie: Right to the heart, Tarah. Right to the heart.

Tarah: Right to the heart [laughs]. Yeah, 30 years ago, which you vividly remember. [laughs]

Jennie: I was, oh man, okay. We're not gonna talk about that. Anyway...

Tarah: Getting older is great. It is great.

Jennie: [Laughs] Okay. So, let's break it down a little bit and talk about: where have we seen progress? Like, because there is a lot of good news to tell even though things are really bleak in the U.S. right now. So, let's revel in the, like, good-news side.

Tarah: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, the great news is that over the last 50 years, what we've seen is an unmistakable trend towards the liberalization of abortion laws. And that's globally—we've seen that across regions. Now, some of that has been small progress, some has been giant progress, and a lot of abortion law of course depends largely on region and countries. But ultimately, the vast majority of countries permit abortion, at least under some circumstances, and are moving towards liberalization. So, there's, you know, really specific examples and I think they're really exciting but in general—so just talking overall stats—60 countries have liberalized their abortion laws in the last 25 years. Only three countries other than the United States have rolled back their abortion since 1994, right? So, that is showing a global trend towards liberalization of abortion laws and also showing, of course, that the United States is, like, wildly out of step at that liberalization. So, there's a lot of good examples. I think people will be really- they'll remember some of the most recent examples. The example of Argentina, for example, which had a near total but functional total ban on abortion where, gosh, three years ago now?—the Covid timeline is yeah, tricky on my brain—that liberalized their abortion laws are and are continuing to liberalize abortion laws so that people have access to the healthcare that they need. And this is in a heavily- a country that heavily polled, you know, 20 years ago, fully non-supportive of abortion, right? A country that's heavily Catholic, that's heavily religious—lots of Catholic people, lots of religious people support abortion—like, but that was not the trend in Argentina. And what we've seen now is a movement that has been able to build power that has been able to show that actually abortion's not just a human right, it's a social good and it's necessary. Another example of course is Ireland—again, another country deeply associated with conservative religion and Catholicism—and we saw the liberalizing on a vote yes on eight, right? That liberalized abortion laws. And you had a different circumstance that, you know, people were then forced to travel to get abortions if they could afford it. And now abortion is- those laws have liberalized in Ireland. We've seen also in Mexico and Columbia in recent year or years. Again, the COVID- is it last year? Is it two years ago? But both a couple of states within Mexico and then nationally, Mexico has liberalized abortion laws, the same in Columbia. You know, these are, these are just the most recent examples. So, what we're seeing are movements that are continuing with the trends that, globally, governments and people recognize that actually liberalizing abortion laws is not just good for people who can get pregnant but is good for the health and safety of a country in general. And so, you know, those movements are still really- there's loads of work still to do and when an abortion law liberalizes, it doesn't magically mean that you can access abortion immediately, particularly in larger spaces. But even in a smaller country like Ireland, for example. You know, one of the problems is that it's really hard. There's not access to abortion in every county. So, depending on where you live, if you're rural, you're much less likely to have access than if you live in an urban space. So, how do we make this, right, a reality is now the sort of next phase after the abortion liberalization laws, right? But in general, that's still trending towards access. It's still trending towards rights—and rights and access, of course, need to go hand-in-hand and don't always. So, that's the global trend, and we've learned a lot from that movement that I'll talk about maybe once we talk about other countries going the other way, but that- you know, these are movements that—every country's different, every region's different, and every space within a country is different. Countries don't speak in one broad stroke. I mean, you can see our gigantic and schizophrenic country. But like we've seen movements be successful when they've helped make obvious to populations how and why abortion matters, right? As opposed to a narrative that stigmatizes abortion as happening only to the other, and in circumstances that should have been avoided, right? So, you look at a country like Argentina, where again, you know, this has been a long journey for activists there who built on the Ni una menos movement, which means "not one less" or "not another one" is another way to translate that, which is around violence against women and girls and helping people see the connection between abortion, the right to abortion, and the right to live free from violence as one in the same, right? So, and that's a really, really important context. In Ireland, the movement—and there's, you know, these movements are really diverse—but helping people see how unfair and cruel it is to make someone who who needs an abortion have to travel or be forced to carry a pregnancy, particularly, you know, stories around pregnancy that were wanted, but then they were unviable pregnancies and someone's forced to carry that pregnancy. So, helping make those connections around compassion and those stories of compassion really worked in those spaces. So, I think there's a lot of lessons there for us in this movement. But the overall takeaway of this like 400-year long speech here is that like the world is trending towards abortion rights and we've moved backwards, but we'll move forward again, like, we'll move forward with this movement. Like, the force of history is on our side here.

Jennie: And you can see a lot of the groundwork you talked about what was successful in Argentina and Ireland really being laid at this moment in the U.S.-

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: -to really shift that conversation, to talk about, you know, why abortion is important to people's lives-

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: -to have people telling their stories, groups like We Testify-

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: -or like dedicating their time to make sure that people are seeing the people and hearing the voices behind the people who need abortions.

Tarah: Yeah. And I- groups like We Testify are so important, and I mean, in some ways it's so discouraging to have to have people tell-

Jennie: Yes.

Tarah: -their own stories. Like, it's like, why do you need someone to tell you about this experience to trust that someone knows what's best for them? On the other hand, like, that is the reality of what is needed. And so, groups like We Testify and anyone who is sharing their abortion story, like, that is part of the sea change, group sea change of course from way back. Like that is part of the sea change that we need to see. And I think that it, you know, it's hard for people. It's easy in abstract to have a really clear sense of what's right and wrong, right? If the world is black and white and you're thinking in abstract, then you can be like, well, this is why I don't support abortion. But actually you, you have no sense of what reality is. And so, hearing someone's story is a way that helps us as humans understand why it matters. It's discouraging to me that that's what it takes. And so, I, you know, there's part of me is like: I just wish We Testify didn't have to exist.

Jennie: Yes.

Tarah: And people didn't have to tell their health [horror?] stories. And not because they're shameful and not because there is like, but like why would you have to tell your appendicitis story, right? That- because like, "and that's why we should make sure that people deserve healthcare." But that's really, really important. And I think, you know, part of that de-stigmatization is...It's not just changing the narrative of is abortion right or wrong, but who abortion applies to. And this is where I think that that work has been so important in the United States is even for folks, you know, historically—and we know we're making, making fun of being old, but like, you know, the nineties was a wild time—and the things that made sense to the narrative then, you know, they still really stigmatized abortion, like second- and third-wave feminism, like in general deeply stigmatized abortion and thinking about abortion, the slogans like "safe, rare and legal," right? Like, the- why is the “rare” in there? Why is that? Why? Abortion all the time—who cares? It's a medical procedure, right? Like those are things where I think the movement in general in the United States is still maturing, but we've seen, and it's those people who are telling their stories that have helped, you know, really challenge some less intersectional thinking around abortion and just abortion as a concept. It's not like abortion is neither a good or bad thing, it is just healthcare. And so those stories are still really, really important. And I think not just for people who in general do not support the right to abortion, but even those who do, who in their support are like, "well, you know, I support abortion, but I'd never have one." Well, first of all, you have no idea, number one, but also like you sure would ‘cause doctors give abortions all the time for nonviable pregnancies or for, you know. There's loads of reasons that whether or not someone quote-unquote would, like, walk in and be like, "I'm ready. I don't wanna carry this viable pregnancy," right? So, that work’s really, really important to the movement. And I think it behooves all of us, whether or not we're, we're telling the stories about our own abortions to be, to be really clear about what we're fighting for. And it's not just so that someone can make the, like, terribly difficult decision around whether or not abortion is morally good or bad. It's so that actually people can just live lives with healthcare as an option like this. Like, we've been having the wrong conversation in this country, obviously, right? Around, like, is abortion good or bad? Like, that's a conversation to have with whatever deities are on your shelf. The question is whether or not people deserve healthcare. Whether or not we trust people to make decisions that are best for lives, and whether or not we wanna live in a society that fundamentally sees women, girls, and people who get pregnant as expendable. And that's the conversation that it's really hard to be on the wrong side of that when someone's explaining to you their story [laughs]. Like, when someone's like, "well wait, actually, here's what happened to me and why I needed an abortion," right? And there's been lots of work. We testify—obviously, so, so amazing at this—but like op-eds that came out around people saying like, "never thought I'd have to tell you my abortion story, but here it is," right? And that work's really important. But it's important for all of us to make sure that, you know, I- we've talked about this before. I tend to be very motivated by like white-hot rage and not like a glowing sense of a beautiful unicorn future, but like, what we're fighting for is just, like, people to be able to live their lives and access healthcare and the whole range of reproductive justice. And those are, I think, lessons also from movements in other countries that can be really helpful. But also these movements can take time, too. And I don't know, like many Americans, I have a very short attention span of history and so it can feel like this major setback, and it is. And it is like we need to pick ourselves up and keep moving forward and to ultimately win back but, like, to win back better, right? Yes. What we had before wasn't enough, like-

Jennie: Like we don't just want what we had, which was-

Tarah: Not enough. Like it was garbage [laughs].

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Plot spoiler: Roe was garbage. Roe was garbage. Everybody knows this, but it was, like, this floor. And what we need is the ceiling, right? And that's always what we should have been fighting.

Jennie: This podcast did not start last year, right?

Tarah: Right. Right, right, right.

Jennie: So, yeah, let's talk about the couple of countries that have been restricting abortion. And I think there's like a really important storyline that we can see through all of those countries, right?

Tarah: Yeah. I mean, shocking no one, in countries with extremely restrictive laws the situation is horrific. And if we look at the three countries that since 1994 have rolled back their laws I think they're really, really instructive. And I do think this is a question of like: what is the world that we want here? And when you have, you know, I think of this with when you have out- you know, we live in DC and when you have people out, you know, at the Supreme Court protest, and you have, like, really young people, lots of people coming from, like, Catholic schools and whatever and I'm really- it's sad in a way that I'm like: what is the world you actually wanna build? 'Cause I actually don't think you want this. I think you think you want this, but like, actually you don't because here's what this world would look like and here are the three examples. Since 1998, El Salvador's constitution has enshrined into law the idea that personhood begins at conception. And as folks who listen to your podcast know, like that is what's in the books coming down the pipes in the United States, and multiple states are trying to do this. And that is the end goal of this movement at the congressional level to move a constitutional amendment. So, okay, what does that mean? Personhood begins at conception? Well, first of course, it means that all abortion is prohibited under law with no exceptions. It means that over 140 women in the last 20 years have been arrested and imprisoned under these abortion laws, some of whom did not have abortions, but experienced a miscarriage. It means that women—and the data here is all on cis women—have been charged with aggravated homicide and have received decade-long prison sentences for miscarriage or abortion. It, of course, disproportionately impacts poor women, Indigenous women, and rural women. And my question for people who oppose abortion is like: is this the world you want? Is that what you want? And I think, I mean, there may be someone who says yes, but I think the answer for most people is not, it would not be yes, right? Another example is Nicaragua, which instituted a total abortion ban in November of 2006. And it overturned a longstanding law that had allowed abortion, but only in very rare circumstances. But even this change from what was already a pretty abortion law to a full ban on abortion has had really clear impact. So, in Nicaragua, 1300 girls between the age of 10 and 14 become pregnant through rape every year. So what's the world look like for them on the tail-end of this law? It's been very hard to get data out of Nicaragua under the government there since 2006. But in the first year of this rollback in 2006, human rights watch documented the deaths of at least 80 women who had died as a result of the abortion ban. And Amnesty International has been documenting a rise in maternal death every year since. Doctors in Nicaragua have described a chilling effect, which they're—not just on, of course, providing an abortion, which is patently illegal, but on obstetric care—they're afraid of potential criminal liability. They're refusing to treat women who are experiencing hemorrhages, even post-menopausal hemorrhages, because they worry that they're gonna be charged as accomplices to murder. So, that's the world that we can live in with a fetal personhood constitutional amendment or law, is a world in which women, girls and people who get pregnant are fully expendable in which doctors are terrified of providing healthcare, even postmenopausal healthcare for fear of being imprisoned. And we've seen versions of this start to creep up already in news stories in the United States. The last example I'll give, again, is the last country other than the United States that has rolled back abortion rights since the nineties is in Poland. And the example of Poland...you know, Poland was one of the first countries in Europe to liberalize abortion laws to allow abortion. And that was in 1932. So, Poland was really at the forefront of abortion rights in Europe. And then, after the fall of communism and buoyed by the Catholic church, campaigners began to precipitously launch a giant campaign and very, very intentionally chip away at abortion laws. So that now, after decades, Poland has finally abolished abortion in 2001 in almost all circumstances. And again, these exceptional circumstances, they don't exist, they don't matter. And what this means is now Poland is putting on record pregnancies in the national Patient Information database, and they're tracking when—and the data in Poland is on cis women—when women get pregnant. And it prosecutes those not only who then seek abortion, but who try to assist in abortion care. So one example that your listeners are likely familiar with is the case of Justyna, who's a human race defender, who supported a pregnant woman who had been suffering from domestic violence to get abortion pills, to access abortion pills. This woman's partner then was searching her computer, saw this communication, and turned in both the woman and Justyna. And Justyna has then gone through a huge criminal case. And in March was convicted and convicted of assisting this person in abortion. Now, this is a case in which there was massive global pressure and massive global attention including by multiple governments who are very present making clear their concern around this. And with that, Justyna was sentenced to eight months community service instead of prison. But the intention is there to show that if you help someone get the medical care that they deserve, you will be punished. You will go to prison. The world won't watch every case. Like, you'll go to prison. And that's the world that Poland lives in now, is a world in which a woman who is in a situation of domestic violence who's seeking an abortion, doesn't get the care she needs. In which the woman who tries to help her can go to prison. Like, that's the world. So those are the three examples alongside the United States that have rolled back abortion, right, in the last 20, 25 years. Since 1994. [laughs] 30 years, my goodness. Math. You know, and that's the world that they live in. And to me, I think, and to your listeners, it can boggle the mind that this is the world in which anti-rights people are fighting for. You know? And I think we're having two different conversations, right? That there's just two totally different conversations. Like, what is the world we want to build? And that's not the conversation that the anti rights movement is having. Like they're having a celebration around having ended Roe. And you just think, what is it you think you've achieved? ‘Cause here's what the reality is, and we're seeing this happen in the United States, right? Like, we're seeing this happen in the United States. Again, overwhelmingly what we're seeing globally is a liberalization of abortion laws. And we saw massive shock ripple through the world when Dobbs was ruled and Roe was overturned. Massive, massive shock and concern. As opposed to like, oh, this sounds like a great idea, right? Massive shock and concern because where the United States goes, others will follow. But it's a hard road to hoe on. It's on for both parts of movements, right—both the anti-rights movement and the pro-rights movement—it's a lot of work, but there's a trend towards liberalization. Like, the world is trending towards liberalization of abortion laws.

Jennie: And I think it's also important, like, abortion isn't the end, right? Like, they aren't stopping at abortion and, like, the attacks on abortion-

Tarah: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: -and limiting people's access in those countries, in the U.S., like that is not "great, we did it."

Tarah: No, it's a package deal.

Jennie: Right?

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: Like, there's more we- yeah. You know, if you're doing, life begins at conception, that means certain forms of birth control are next. They're gonna start attacking birth control access.

Tarah: Absolutely.

Jennie: We’ve already seen-

Tarah: No-fault divorce.

Jennie: Right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. We're starting to see the no-fault divorce stuff coming up more and more in the U.S. The huge, like, "okay, we can't attack abortion rights in the same way in the U.S. right at this moment." I mean, they still definitely are going at it in states that haven't gone as far as they would like, but you've seen this huge increase in attacks on trans rights this year. So, like-

Tarah: Yeah, and they're the same thing.

Jennie: It’s all connected, it's all the same people, and-

Tarah: That’s exactly right.

Jennie: -they’re not done.

Tarah: No. And I think that's what's, you know, we see this globally too, as well as obviously folks will be really familiar with that in the States, is that: one, this is the same people as in literally the same people are funding it. And this doesn't mean that, like my great-aunt doesn't in her heart believe abortion some way or another, but that, like, the movement is being funded and fueled and controlled by extreme minority of people who seek and wanna maintain political power. And you know, I mean, in some ways that's really sad, right? You have folks who believe something in their hearts who are being deeply manipulated by people who do not give two shits about abortion, who are interested in political power and have found a way to manipulate people to get it. And that's not only on abortion, right? Clearly we're seeing that on trans rights. This is the same...it's not just the same tactics, it's the same argument that it's the government that should control your body. That it's the government that knows what's best and not you that knows who you are or what's best. But also that, like, the government and some of these laws—and there's been, you know, there've been multiple that have been overturned in courts—but it's this constant march against trans children, against trans people. And it's to make a political scapegoat. And this is the same thing with, like, the far right claiming it's pro-life. Well, that's just a load of horseshit. Everybody knows that. Abortion bans don't do anything to protect life. They don't do anything to make safe pregnancies. If what you care about is fetal life, and let's be very clear what that’s fetal life- then great. Like, then support socialized healthcare. Abortion bans actually don't do that, right? They actually make that more dangerous and they don't decrease abortion rights. So, you know, anytime that someone tells you they're pro-life, they're- unless they are on a full encompassing "I'm pro-life because I'm here and handing out birth control and in full support, and I support full access to abortion," like, you know, we know that this narrative is full of shit but obviously that that's been widely swallowed. And that is something that is also exported globally. And this is, again, it is the same people and the same money that then exports this United States horseshit you know, globally. And that's something that's I think very concerning post-Dobbs. There's new research that Fòs Feminista came out with just this week—or the week of July 5th, they should say depending on when someone's listening to this podcast—which is on the global effects of Dobbs. So, one of the things that Amnesty International and other organizations saw right away was a very clear ripple effect of the Dobbs decision. Not just in shock in governments and activist movements, but in real fear and the emboldening of an anti-rights movement where you began to see or this has been happening, right? But you saw this spike in enthusiasm and in, and frankly rhetorical and sometimes physical violence of anti-rights movement who felt deeply emboldened by this, by their victory in the United States. So that we saw immediately. And that was very, very clear. And also then taking the playbook of how this happened in the United States. And every country has a very different political system, but it's not rocket science: start at the local level, build through the courts, take over state legislatures, politicize an issue that did not used to be politicized. I mean, there's an actual book. We know this. There's an actual playbook. And that's been exported to again, the same people, the same money with, with the same end. So the research that came out recently with Fòs Feminista focused on a handful of countries—it wasn't a, you know, 86 country research—but what they saw was that there had been impact in the last year in a couple of different ways. One in laws and policy, two in narrative, and then the third in terms of how movements are responding. So in laws and policy, Dobbs has been referenced in a number of spaces in which politicians or legislatures are either pointing to their own laws as being bad laws—using the same type of argument and then referencing Dobbs, right, that was used in the majority opinion—or in referencing Dobbs in terms of "like, in Dobbs we want to do X and the United States is a leader," you know, et cetera. So we've- that has happened and it's on record in multiple countries as anti-rights legislation or anti-rights legislators are trying to move that forward. So, we're seeing that happen. The next is the narrative change, right? And learning the anti-rights movement picking up from that narrative change and then how that change that they see from the United States impacts the way they're now talking about abortion. And again, like whether or not the United States should be, it is a global leader in narrative making. And so, if you have then a country that continues to call itself a human rights leader, that continues to forefront itself in the global economy and the global political space, then making a very clear statement that abortion rights are not rights, that women, girls and people who can get pregnant do not deserve bodily autonomy. Like, that narrative changes- is we're also seeing that shift as people pick up that narrative and, of course, justify it by pointing back to the United States. Which is in a sense, particularly in spaces, like where anti-LGBTQI laws are deeply colonial, right? Like, anti-LGBTQI laws are deeply colonial. And this like- it seems counterintuitive that then you'd pick up another colonizing powers narrative. But like this is happening despite that disconnect. Then the third is in the movements, right? And you have seen a real emboldening of the anti-rights movement, particularly the anti-sexual reproductive health and rights and the anti-LGBTQI rights movements, a real emboldening of what they think they can get done and what they're willing to do to get that done. And you know, you take an example like Poland where the passing of this abortion law is just one piece, like you said earlier, it's just one piece in the puzzle. The birth registration came very quickly afterwards. There's an NGO registration law that's trying to be pushed through trying to shut down civil society. There's a shrinking civil society space that's- these things are happening. There's a gender—I don't know how do you say it in English, but like—like gender normalcy, kind of, like, ultimately policing gender around whether or not being LGBTQI is within national standards of goodness, right? I mean, like the, these get really, really scary very quickly and, and they're all connected because then you're so emboldened by what was a huge deal overturning Roe that moves forward. So that part's very scary. And the United States setting that precedent is terrifying. 'Cause It's one thing to say there've only been three other countries. And then it's another thing to say the fourth one is the United States. And that is really terrifying. And I think that activists, you know, globally, look, when the United States sneezes, the world catches a cold and activists globally are looking to us and saying like, oh, this is gonna impact us. And of course it impacts, too, countries that receive U.S. Funding because there's real fear around what this means for funding. Obviously there's already major restrictions on U.S. funding in terms of sexual reproductive health and rights. But you've seen an emboldened Congress go after funding. So again, this is like a 40 year tirade on how connected these things are and how important it is to see them as connected and to be able to fight that. Because the same thing we learned on why Argentina was successful after so many years, why Ireland is successful—it's around narrative change and seeing these things as connected to an issue that maybe someone else was willing to listen to when they weren't willing to listen to abortion. And that's the same on the positive side too. We've got to see those fights as connected because they are. And because we can't win one at a time, okay,

Jennie: So, this feels like a good place to maybe, like, do the step back and go, so what, what can our audience do about all this? This all feels one, there's so much good news, right?

Tarah: Yeah.

Jennie: The overall trend is liberalization, but like seeing what's happened in those three countries and this like authoritarian strain through all of that. So, what can we do?

Tarah: Yeah. Well, you know, there's, there's so much, there's no one magic wand, right? [indiscernible].

Jennie: Damnit.

Tarah: I know. I really want- believe me.

Jennie: I really thought you'd just be like-

Tarah: Here’s the one thing.

Jennie: You can do this one thing, and it's real easy.

Tarah: It’s, you know, there's, as every reproductive org and rights org knows that like, man, we'd put it on our website if there was like one thing. But the most important thing is to stay engaged. It is exhausting, it is discouraging, but it is really important to stay engaged. And that can mean a number of things depending on where you are. So let me start with this. The first thing that people should do is to take heart. So, CLACAI—which is the Latin American consortium against insecure abortion, it's like the broad Latin American movement for abortion rights—just met two weeks ago in Panama in late June in Panama. And you know, this is a gathering in which people who are still in- activists, who are still in really tough political circumstances, who are really- who have flogged through the long fight get together. We think about, you know, globally, you know, together how we're thinking in these spaces. Amnesty Latin American offices are there, you know, et cetera. And lots of on-the-ground grassroots folks are there. And this is a space where the United States was a huge topic of conversation, and not just in lessons learned, but in how to support, how to show solidarity. So, you know, there are people everywhere around the world who also don't know what the magic wand is, but they're ready to stand in solidarity and they are standing in solidarity and just knowing that that is, even though, you know—are you seeing that? Are you feeling that?—like, know that is happening in these conversations. And you know, every time—so as folks may know, Amnesty International is a global grassroots organization, and I just work here in the United States—that like people are, they are shocked, they are concerned and they are ready. If the thing can be done, they're ready to do it. And of course, there is no one thing. And so, there's not gonna be this magic wand we can wave to feel that. But people should take heart that one, we are in the majority. We are in the majority. The majority of people around the world—three out of five believe abortion should be legal. In the United States, we know the majority of people believe that abortion should be legal. And people in the United States and globally have complicated feelings about abortion, but they don't believe in further restrictions. They don't believe that the government should be the one to decide what's best for a pregnant person. So, we should take heart in that. And I think it really, really matters because, you know, we need the fuel to keep going. Like if you're running a marathon, you have to eat those goo packs or whatever, like, you need to be fueling your body. And that's true emotionally, too, in the marathon that is human rights work and reproductive rights work, which are of course, human rights. Like, we need to be fueling ourselves. So, so take heart, like globally, the world is on our side and yes, the powers that make up these decisions have made it very difficult for the majority to win. That's not to belay reality, but that the world's on our side. So, the first thing is to take heart. The second thing is to stay engaged. What does it look like to support abortion access in your life, in your community, in your space? So, one is: talk about abortion. Talk about abortion whenever you can. Whenever there's an opportunity, whenever it comes up in the news—which is all the time—whenever you're at a gathering where someone says something hinky. Like, there is a way to talk about abortion that's safe for you—making sure you're of course physically and emotionally safe—but like, talk about abortion. Abortion is normal, abortion is healthcare, abortion is safe and abortion is a human right. And you don't have to be an expert on abortion care or the stats to have a conversation about abortion. So, like, really making abortion a kitchen table issue. Like what happens, like, as we get into election season and we're gonna hear about kitchen table issues a lot and the thing we're gonna hear about is the economy [laughs], which is always a kitchen table issue. Like abortion needs to be a kitchen table issue. Like, elections are coming this year of course, but they are also especially coming next year with every big election with the presidential election's a big election. Abortion needs to be a kitchen table issue. Talk about abortion, talk about it. You know, if you have someone who is like violently anti-abortion in your life, don't start there. Talk about abortion, talk about it with people that you know, support abortion. Ask each other how you're gonna talk about abortion with people, how you're gonna bring it up. So, talk about abortion. If you have an abortion story to tell that you feel safe telling, you should tell that story. But if you don't have an abortion story to tell, or you don't feel safe telling it, or don't want to. Talk about abortion, talk about abortion, talk about abortion. The next thing people can do is to think about what sphere of control do you have? Where are you living and what does abortion look like? So we are lucky and unlucky enough to live in DC [laughs], the District of Columbia. Like, what does it mean to support abortion access right here, right? How are people getting abortions? Where, when do they need abortions? How do people access abortion in sphere of control that I have here? As someone who lives here, you may live in a space that if you live in a space with abortion restrictions, that it's gonna be different, but likely there's a lot of growing grassroots abortion support networks. So, if there's an abortion support network in your town or your region, find out. Can you provide a ride? Can you do a cash drop off, right? And these should be things that, like, are organized through people who already are organizing these, right? Don't worry ladies, like it's happening, right? So, find the people who have been doing this for a long time and get involved to whatever extent you have. If you don't have a car, you're not gonna be a good ride-person, but you might be the person who can be on the bus with someone, right? And that's gonna be more in urban spaces, obviously, but there's also abortion funds and there are abortion funds across every state and territory. Like, there are abortion funds. How can you get involved in the abortion funds? Obviously, if you have the money, give the money. Abortion costs money because our healthcare system is a nightmare in the United States and all healthcare costs money. If you have money, give to an abortion fund. If you don't have that money to give, figure out how you can support them. Talk about the abortion fund with people. Go to some of their events. Even if you can't donate, be in touch with them in terms of maybe they're doing advocacy, maybe they're doing outreach, how you can be involved. So that, you know, that's like really local, right? Also, what is your city? If you live in a city—both of you and I grew up in extremely rural townships, we did not have such things as city borders or councils—but if you live in a place with a city authority of some stripe, an [indiscernible] board or a, we have city hall here with council members, reach out to the lowest-rung person that represents you and make sure they know that you support abortion and you'll be like "why would this matter if Councilman Allen knows that I support abortion?" It matters because at some point there's gonna be another vote in the town. Even if the town is very liberal, even if the town is super conservative and you're like, "there's no hope or it's only hope," reach out to your elected officials at the lowest rung and make sure that they know that like abortion access is important to you and you don't quite know what's going on right now with abortion, but you expect when it comes up that they're gonna fight for it, right? Again, you don't have to be an expert on the codes and laws in your town, like make a call—send an email if you don't wanna get on the phone—but also get on the phone. It matters twice as much than an email. Like, get on the phone, talk to a stranger for 20 seconds. You can write out your script. It's okay, leave a message. You don't have to be great at phones. Like, make that call. So then, we're sort of like, what's it mean to level up, right? What is your state doing if you're lucky enough to live in a state? Voting rights-

Jennie: Exactly.

Tarah: -which Is not the district of Columbia. Like, what is your state legislature looking like? You have then two representatives. You have a state senator and a state representative—except for I think Nebraska, which is the one unicameral, but everyone else is bicameral. Like, call those folks, send an email. Send an email and call them again. You can have a scripted call. If you're scared of the phone, it's okay, write it out, then hang up immediately. You don't have to make friends, like, just make that call. Make sure they know you support abortion, right? And then if you then investigate a little more like what's actually on the docket, what you can fight for or not fight for. But if you're not, if you don't wanna level up to that, that's okay. Just make that one call.

Jennie: And even if they're friendly, right? Like-

Tarah: Especially if they're friendly.

Jennie: “Thank you”s go a long way to know that, like, hey, we've got your back.

Tarah: Because they have to know what- that's exactly right. They have to know what political capital they have on this. So, make those calls. Those are things you can do immediately without, like, digging into, like, what laws and codes are going on in my state right now. But then the next thing to do is like, what's happening in your state? So, I'm from California and obviously California has been doing great work that took a load of work to get those laws passed. Like I, you know, not a California voter, I live in DC, but if I lived in that state, like try and get involved, figure out what the organizations and the folks who are leading need and what is the thing you can provide and you don't, again, it should, you should definitely make this your full-time hobby. But like, even just, like, showing up to the rallies or spreading the word or you know, volunteering to, to make the copies or whatever it is that someone needs that day. Like, the work to make sure that abortion rights are not just on the books but are accessible. That's work that, like, physically people gotta show up and do. And so, figure out what that is in your state. And, and if you're in a, you're a- "great," you're like, "I'm in such a good state. I'm in California. They just passed this package of abortion rights and it's so exciting," that work still needs to be done. And if you're in a devastated state, like, and we could list, there's so many of them, but Texas, of course, and Florida, if you're in a state where you're like, they have stripped all the rights, it is awful. Find out what people- because that's still the work still needs to get done. You don't have to know the answer, you don't have to solve the problem. You just gotta show up in whatever way you can. That's the state level. And then, of course, we live in a federal government. Call your representative, call your senators. And again, I know the phone is scary. I'm all, no, I hate the phone. Please don't call me. But, like, never call, like if someone calls me, I'm like, you better be dying. Yeah, I don't- but like, make that call and call don't send an email. It's so much more important when you call because it gets measured differently. It just gets measured differently. All you have to do is call and say like, my name is Tarah Demant I live in—of course we don't have voting representation, but—I live in Washington DC I'm calling Representative Holmes to make sure that she knows that I support abortion rights and I expect her to do everything she can to fight for abortion. They, you don't have to list 17 bills, they know what bills fight for abortion. Make that call so that they know that there's something going on, right? Again, this is things you can do, like, in the next 30 minutes, whenever you're, hey call after hours, no one will pick up, leave a message. The safest way to do it, right? [laugh], you don't have to talk to anybody's intern, right? So, these are things you can do immediately, and you can just start to see where you can plug into the movement. Because I think there can be a- one, there's fatigue and that's intentional. The anti-rights movement is throwing everything at us to fatigue- like, it is to fatigue us. And it is, like, if you can't win, it's like, you know, at the fair, you play whack-a-mole whack. If you can't win on that, they'll win on something else 'cause they'll just tire us out, right? This is a long game. Do the things you can do, plug in. So, there's that fatigue, but also that it's being locked because you don't know exactly what the right thing is to do. Let go of the idea that there is a perfect activism. It doesn't exist. We don't have the answers. The reaper rights movement does not have the perfect answer. So, it's not like you are the one that's silly and can't figure it out. No one knows what the perfect answer is or we would've done it. So, try something that makes sense for you and your capacity. Nothing, not an option. Try one thing. Maybe it's, maybe it's committing to like the next time you're in a room with someone and abortion comes up on the news just talking about it. There's lots of guidance for that. You know, you can go to- All Above All has a great guide. You can just like- "how do I talk about abortion?" Google it. 14 things will come up, the National Network for Abortion Fund has. But ultimately, like, leading with curiosity, trying not to shut down a conversation even when someone is bananagrams about it. But like really trying to like, reach out with empathy and just like settled in your own core values. Why do you know abortion is important? Why do you believe this? Right? That's easy-peasy. Those conversations are hard, but like you can try one, it doesn't have to go perfectly, right? You can do things right now, but, but nothing is not an option. And then, I dunno, if we figure out the perfect solution, we'll let you know.

Jennie: We’ll let you know. We'll let you know for sure, right?

Tarah: Yeah, yeah. Like, fight for those things that matter. Elections are coming up. Like, get engaged. There are multi- not every state can do this. There are multiple states that are gonna be doing a ballot initiative. Ohio has one coming up for this year. 2023. Arizona has one coming up 2024. If you are in those states, get involved with a ballot initiative. If you don't wanna talk to people, that's fine. I hate people, too. Be the person who runs copies. Be the person who like...

Jennie: I mean, there's maybe postcard-

Tarah: There’s postcard campaigns. Like figure out if you're in a ballot initiative state. Unfortunately, not every state has that process in place. You can do that, find a thing and then level yourself up from there. There are so many things you can do. Write a letter to the editor. This is, like, the longest podcast ever. I'm so sorry to your editor. But like, there are so many things you can do. Write a letter to the editor, apropos of nothing, because abortion is always in the news, especially if you're in a space that has a smaller paper. So, like, I'm from a very, very tiny town, as you know. And we have- it's a collective paper for four different townships. These are townships of like a thousand people.

Jennie: Yep.

Tarah: If you wrote a letter to the editor, 100% it's being published and also is a really, really important mouthpiece for keeping abortion in the news, right? And also, your elected representation reads all the local papers. Write a letter to the editor. You don't have to be like, here are the stats on abortion. It can be like, you know, I saw on the news X, Y, Z and I'm really concerned that, that we're moving into a space where people won't have control over their bodies or here's why I think abortion is important and I hope others will support the right of other people to make that decision for themselves. You don't have to be Shakespeare to make this work, write a letter to the editor, right? Especially small papers. But even if you're in a large city, like, write a letter if your local paper’s the Washington Post, which ours is [laughs], like, write a letter to the Washington Post. You know, make that letter to the editor happen. You don't have to talk to anybody to do that. Write 300 words and you can Google: how to write a letter to the editor. And the advice is keep it short, keep it direct. You know, it's not rocket science. So that's another thing you can do. You know, there are so many things. Commit to a voting plan. Voting…whether or not abortion's on your ballot, abortion is on your ballot. So, figure out if you're registered to vote, figure out now, because lots of states are making it harder and harder to register. Congress is coming of course, for DC's registration laws, unfortunately is the newest news, but, like, it is going to be harder to register to vote. So, so do that now. Figure out now. Make sure you're registered. Triple check if you voted every election since you turned 18. Triple check that you're registered and have a voting day plan. I know it's July and you're like, elections aren't until November and maybe you don't even have elections this November. Maybe they're next year. Like, get your voting plan now because like, be an abortion voter. Right? Figure those things out. So, there's like 50 things you can do for abortion rates right now, but like, take heart, like we are all in this together. The global movement is joyful. It's strong. It has history on its side. It is here with us. None of us know the magic answer, but like, we will do this together. You'll do your one thing. I'll do my one thing. If we're tired, if we're frustrated, we'll talk to each other. We won't, like, give up, right? And we'll keep moving forward. Jennie: Ok. So, I really did not expect to end this conversation talking about, like, where we were wrapping up, talking about how things were bad in the U.S. and like the regressive countries on abortion with hope. But Tarah-

Tarah: [Laughs]

Jennie: I’m ending with hope, which is weird. And I think we should stop while we're ahead.

Tarah: I think so. I think so, too. And yet, so let me end with this and the- because you know, I'm such a cynical, like, black-hearted person, so it's odd for me to be hopeful just as a general thing. But I take this from Justyna who is, this is a case Amnesty's worked on for a long time. And so, I've been privileged to be able to speak with Justyna and our Polish team has worked really hard on this. They're part of the abortion Dream Team, which- it's called something else in Poland. In Polish. But Lord knows and you know, Justyna was sentenced to eight months of community service, which was best case scenario.

Jennie: Yeah.

Tarah: Like, absolute best-case scenario. And Justyna is like, oh no, we'll appeal this. I'd rather go to jail 'cause this shouldn't be a crime. She's like, I'll fight this until the day I die. And this is a person that- whose whole life has been on hold, you know, in terms of trying- going through what could be a terrifying end for her, which is being imprisoned for helping an abuse victim seek out healthcare, right? And this, so this is like, if Justyna can, like, laugh in the face of the Polish courts who are trying to actively imprison her, I can make a phone call to my representative. I can write a letter to the editor. I can get over needing to be perfect at that and get that out. I can have a conversation with my mom about why it's not just enough to say "abortion, but-" right. Like, I can have a conversation even with my great-aunt when she says something hinky about abortion and be like, you know, I just think we need, you know, we need to lead with compassion here, "here's why abortion's important to me." 'Cause if Justyna can, like, laugh in the face of Polish courts coming for her, like we can lead with hope. We can lead with joy. So yeah, no, I am hopeful and it's, it's not, it's not because I'm naturally hopeful. It's ‘cause I know we will win. I know we will win, and we just have to be part of that movement. We just have to keep moving forward together. And it's tiring and it's sad and it's scary, but I know we will win, and we can move together, fully in joy together and it is hopeful.

Jennie: Perfect. Tarah, thank you so much for being here and thank you for hope.

Tarah: Yes, thank you. Thank you for the opportunity to talk about abortion. It's the best thing to talk about. [laughs] It's the only thing to talk about. It's the world we want to live in.

Jennie: What else is going on?

Tarah: Yeah. Almost, almost nothing. That's the other thing is, like, there's so many things going on. We can make little changes. We, like, we can do this. Being part of the forward movement even as we see these massive backslides. I know they're terrifying. We know this. Especially- we live in the middle of it, but like we can move forward together. Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my interview with Tarah! I had a great time talking to her and getting to see her in person and it was just lovely. So, I'll see y'all in two weeks. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!