The Helms Amendment Hurts Millions Worldwide

The Helms Amendment stipulates that “no foreign assistance funds may be used to pay for the performance of abortion as a method of family planning” abroad and has been in effect since 1973. But the amendment is often overinterpreted as a complete and total ban on U.S. funding for abortion care, even in the most extreme cases and in countries where abortion is legal. Rachel Marchand, Public Policy Manager with rePROs Fight Back, sits down to talk with us about the direct harm of Helms and why it’s far past time the amendment is repealed.

The Helms amendment ignores the well-established foundation of reproductive rights as human rights and limits the accessibility of safe and timely abortion care for those that are subject to U.S. foreign assistance. Subsequent harm—including unsafe abortion and maternal mortality, among others—is disproportionately felt by Black and brown communities, young people, people experiencing poverty, LGBTQI+ individuals, and those in humanitarian and conflict settings.

Links from this episode

The Helms Amendment Hurts Millions Worldwide Policy Brief
Sexual and Reproductive Health in Emergencies: Promising Practices to Address the Crisis within a Crisis
Sexual and Reproductive Health in Emergency and Humanitarian Settings
Silencing Aid, Denying Services
Repealhelms.org
The Global Gag Rule and the Helms Amendment: Dual Policies, Deadly Impact
How US Abortion Policy Harms Rape Survivors in Conflict Zones

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Jennie: Hi rePROs. How's everybody holding up? I'm your host Jennie Wetter and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, this first week has been a wild ride with the new administration and honestly I'm recording this on the Friday before you're hearing it. So, who knows what has happened in between. I'm sure there have been a bunch of new wild things. You know, so much has happened in this first week with the new administration. They've tried to end birthright citizenship, lots of major actions against immigrants, shutting down the refugee program, like, withdrawing from the Paris Climate Agreement, withdrawing from the World Health Organization, getting rid of DEI programs, so many anti-trans executive actions. We will definitely dig into some of these more in later episodes. We'll probably talk about the World Health Organization and we definitely will be talking about the anti-trans EO. But just, I don't wanna spend a ton of time on all of that. Just acknowledge that it's happening and there's a lot of people who are scared and are just in harm's way and, you know, it's really important that those of us that are supporting the trans community or immigrants or all of these other people who are worried are speaking up and making sure they know that they are supported and that they're loved and that they're seen. So that's where my head is at right now is just thinking of what we can do to slow things down and make things better for people who are about to be harmed. I think that's all I wanna say about that right now 'cause there's so much going on and it can be easy to feel overwhelmed and like get, dig deep into that and we'll have so many podcasts talking about all of the things that are happening. Let's try to keep maybe the intro a little more upbeat today. I don't know, I feel like maybe we need it. Let's see. So, of exciting things, I tried a new recipe, I don't know why it was speaking to me 'cause I don't really eat these in general, but I saw a recipe for oatmeal cream pie bars. Yeah. I don't, like, go and buy those like Little Debbie oatmeal creme pies. They've never really been and they just were never part of my life. But I was looking to make some sort of bar cookie mostly 'cause I was too lazy to do, like, roll out cookies or do something that was a lot of effort. So I thought bars sounded like the perfect solution and I saw this and I was like, oh my god, that sounds so good. And y'all, oh my god, it was so good. Yeah, I don't know. It made me happy. It brought me a little joy over this week 'cause I made them last weekend and so I was eating them all week, eating my feelings all week to enjoy the oatmeal cream pie bars I made. I need to not eat my feelings through the whole thing. But baking has been my go-to and I think I've talked about it before, like, I generally trend to the, like, making a breakfast item so I'm not eating, like, cookies and cake and those types of things. So I need to maybe make some bagels or something this weekend instead of sweets because let's not do that. I don't know. My sweet tooth knows no bounds though. Y'all, let's see what else is going on? I don't know, I just feel, like, kind of overwhelmed with all the things happening. Trying to keep my peace though, right? I, one, I've never been a cable news person, so that really helps. Like I don't follow the cable news. I really tried to reduce the amount of time I'm on social and I've been busy working on other things at work, so I'm not on social for work very often. So, that has really helped with some of that. So, hopefully I can work and try and keep that going. I've been less good about meditating this week. Gotta get back on that. Yeah, I just trying to keep my peace through the next four years. That is my priority right now. I think I'm gonna end it there 'cause I'm very excited about this week's interview and I give a lot of my shoutouts and love at the end, but just in case you don't make it to the end. I wanna make sure that I am front loading it as well. I am so excited for this week's guest. She doesn't really come on the podcast very often, but she has been involved in the podcast from almost the jump, but for sure before we started releasing episodes. And this is absolutely a partnership, like, Rachel has been just invaluable to creating the podcast and doing all the behind the scenes stuff. And for so long she did social media, which she has now ablely handed off to Elena, who does such an outstanding job on our social. Rachel has been doing some writing for us and I am so, so excited that she wanted to come on and talk about this brief she wrote that came out in December talking about the Helms Amendment. And with all the things that are gonna be coming up, we know the global gag rule will be reintroduced soon and there's always so much confusion between the global gag rule and the Helms Amendment. It just felt really important to kind of lay that groundwork to make sure that everybody knows the difference. So, talking about what Helms is before we get to where we talk about what the global gag rule is, which I think will probably be next week. As of right now, the new version hasn't been released, but I assume it will come out very, very soon. It may already be out by the time you're listening, but as of when I'm recording, it is not out yet. So, all that is to say, I'm so excited to have Rachel Marchand with rePROs fight back on as our guest to talk about the Helms Amendment. So let's go to my interview with Rachel.

Jennie: Hi Rachel, thank you so much for being here today.

Rachel: Hi Jennie. Thank you so much for having me.

Jennie: I am so excited to have you on. This feels very weird, like we talk all the time.

Rachel: [Laughs] Yes.

Jennie: Just not on a podcast.

Rachel: Correct.

Jennie: So, before we get into the actual conversation, do you wanna take a second and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Rachel: Sure. My name is Rachel Marchand. I use she/her pronouns, and I am the public policy manager with the rePROs Fight Back Initiative out of the Population Institute.

Jennie: I'm so excited to have you here.

Rachel: Thank you for having me.

Jennie: You did an amazing brief that came out late last year talking about the Helms Amendment and we're getting ready to start. I mean, not getting ready to start. We have the new administration that just, just started.

Rachel: Yeah.

Jennie: Apparently, I'm blocking it out already.

Rachel: No, it just feels like it has, it's already been three out of the four years.

Jennie: Yeah. And since we're getting ready to start the new administration, we know we're- the global gag rule will be reintroduced at some point. It is not as of when we are recording been- the executive order hasn't been out, but we see a lot of confusion between the Helms amendment and gag and, like, lots of confusion. So, it felt really important to lay a little groundwork before we got to some of the new stuff and talk about Helms and why we need to care about Helms when all this attention in the near future is gonna be on global gag. So with all of that preamble, what is Helms amendment?

Rachel: Yeah, so the Helms amendment was basically a reaction to the 1973 Supreme Court ruling on Roe versus Wade. It was introduced and passed that very same year in 1973 by Senator Jesse Helms. He was a Republican from North Carolina and it was an amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act and it's been in effect ever since. It's included annually as part of the state and foreign operations bill and the appropriations process. But what does it do? Well, on paper it stated that…here let me get the direct quote for you…it says, quote, "no foreign assistance funds may be used to pay for the performance of abortion as a method of family planning or to motivate or coerce any person to practice abortions," end quote. So that's what it says on paper. But a lot of implementing agencies that are at the forefront of global health—we're talking the State Department, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, the United States Agency for International Development—they often over-interpret Helms as a total ban on US funding for abortion care. So, even in cases of rape, even in cases of incest or of a life-threatening pregnancy, and in countries where abortion is legal, those implementing agencies can often over interpret as a complete and total ban on US funding for provision of abortion. And the passage of Helms and the subsequent over implementation, as you can imagine, as the audience can imagine, has led to a host of poor health outcomes, most notably the restriction of time sensitive abortion care and increased maternal mortality as a result.

Jennie: Yeah, this has been one of those, like, perpetual fights. We have had, even with friendly administrations to argue that, hey, at the bare minimum we should be able to ensure that people who need abortions because they were raped or their lives are in danger or the pregnancy was a result of incest, should be able to access abortion care. As you can probably tell from our conversation, that has not happened, but it has been a longstanding fight that we have had that, you know, that is not what the Helms Amendment says. It is not all abortions. It's, you know, just abortions as a method of family planning. It leaves room for exceptions, but yeah, just ugh, the perpetual fight.

Rachel: Well, yes, and, and it would be a very easy fix too. It would be a very simple clarification is all that's needed. And it goes back to, I, look, I've been with this podcast since day one. I know the audience very well. I don't think they need me to explain any of this, but it all goes back to the fact that reproductive rights are human rights. So, the Helms Amendment is just completely trampling on reproductive rights being human rights. That exact notion was co-signed by 178 countries at a landmark conference in 1994 in Cairo, Egypt called the International Conference on Population and Development. And ultimately it's cemented on a global scale, reproductive rights as human rights, and that includes abortion. And again, I don't need to be telling anybody this, but sexual and reproductive health and rights is a foundation. It's non-negotiable. It is completely necessary. It is groundwork for women and girls and transgender individuals and gender non-binary individuals to be fully engaged in their own lives, to be in charge of their own education, their own health, their own political and economic well-being. None of that is easily navigable at all if you don't have that foundation, that jumping off point of being able to choose if and when and how you have a family. And that's ultimately what the Helms Amendment does. It just, like I said before, it just completely tramples on that human right by limiting the accessibility of abortion care, but not only limiting the accessibility of abortion care, propagating stigma on this, like, global scale. And I think generally just prolonging this general ambiguity about the rule's dimensions and how implementing agencies have to comply with that.

Jennie: So, I think it really, that this is all absolutely true, like, setting it up as a human right. That this just tramples on it, it tramples on it for people who are unable to access healthcare from other places, it is majorly impacting Black and Brown people since it's in developing countries, like, it is colonialism that we are exporting this terrible policy and forcing it on people. What other harms are we seeing and like what are the impacts we're seeing from the Helms Amendment?

Rachel: Very true. I mean, I would like to go back to your point that this is- the Helms Amendment specifically targets foreign assistance in low and middle income countries. And the effects of Helms are of course going to be disproportionately impacting those that already experience the most marginalization, like you said, that includes Black and Brown communities, young people, LGBTQI+ individuals, people experiencing poverty, survivors of sexual violence, among a myriad of other, of other groups. And this is very, very tangible real harm that we're talking about that comes from the Helms Amendment as you and I just previously discussed. It's completely wallpapering over a well-established human right. So that's one harm. But I just wanna take one second here and step back and sort of set the stage a little bit here so that we can better understand Helms' direct impact on the people. The individuals are the most important part of this whole conversation, and I want to make sure that we make that very clear. So, bear with me while I set a little context. The US is the largest bilateral donor for family planning and reproductive health in the world, meaning that millions of people depend on US funding to access their sexual and reproductive health and rights services. But any US agency that administers foreign assistance is subject to the Helms Amendment. And research has shown that that funding is rarely used by these agencies to support abortion care even in the most extreme circumstances. And that, of course, trickles down to the clinics and the individual healthcare providers that can't provide the services that are necessary for their patients. Okay, the patients, let's talk about the patients. When you don't have access to dependable and timely and quality abortion care, you're likely to look elsewhere. And looking outside of trusted providers and trusted medical institutions means you're very likely looking at options that are probably lacking in their medical standards and they're probably lacking in their medical skills. And this will unfortunately, likely lead to unsafe abortion. Stopping here, this is already a tragedy that someone feels forced to pursue this as an only option because they cannot access a safe alternative is a tragedy. That someone a world away can directly influence your healthcare and your life out of ideology, in spite, and because it's, you know, an amendment to the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 is directly impacting your life—that is a tragedy. And so I wanna just share really quickly this statistic with you. This is research performed by the Guttmacher Institute. Thank you Guttmacher. I'll link this in the show notes. A Helms Amendment repeal and healthcare systems subsequently being supported rather than limited by US policy could result in 19 million fewer unsafe abortions, 12 million fewer women requiring medical treatment from complications due to unsafe abortions each year, and 17,000 fewer maternal deaths. And in addition, the overall number of maternal deaths from unsafe abortions and impacted countries would decline by 98%.

Jennie: Yeah. Just sit with that for a minute, that's a lot. And you know

Rachel: Yeah.

Jennie: We've spent a lot of time talking on this podcast about how not being able to get a legal abortion in the US doesn't mean that people are getting unsafe abortions 'cause we have medication abortion, which is safe.

Rachel: That's right.

Jennie: So, you know, this is a different context than we're talking about in the US that people are turning to different things than they are in the states. So, just to draw that distinction a little bit, just because you're getting it outside of the healthcare system in the US does not make it unsafe. It makes it legally risky. And when we're talking about it in the context of international development and in the global south, we are talking about unsafe abortion.

Rachel: That's correct, yes. I think a very important distinction to make, make, and this isn't even considering, you know, everything that we just discussed and in the context of outside of the United States, in the global south, in countries that are impacted by the Helms Amendment, this isn't even considering the entire other universe of physical and mental complications that come from turning to clandestine methods of care. You know, whether it be damage to internal organs or damage to fertility or, or the mental cost, the mental cost of not being able to realize your bodily autonomy or being subject to that global stigma. This is the kind of direct harm that we're talking about when, when we talk about the harm of the Helms Amendment

Jennie: And all of this is about to get compounded when the global gag rule gets added on top of it.

Rachel: Yeah.

Jennie: But we thought it was really important that people understood kind of the base of where we were already at before that gets added in.

Rachel: Yes, absolutely.

Jennie: Okay. So another thing that we have spent a lot of time talking about is humanitarian settings. And Helms has a particular harm in humanitarian settings. Can you tell us a little bit about why we need to think about Helms when we're thinking about a humanitarian crisis?

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, I think this has been said before on the podcast, but it is a really salient point. And so I will, I will repeat it again: sex, pregnancy, menstruation, childbirth, these things, they don't stop just because there's a crisis happening just because there's an emergency happening. In fact, it's actually, in this case, in this very scenario, when people need even more support because they are disproportionately impacted in their lack of access to care and they're experiencing gender-based violence, a war or a climate catastrophe or a natural disaster. These are things that can completely uproot you. It completely uproots you. And a consequence of being utterly uprooted is- it can be a host of things. It can be, you know, exposure to poverty, exposure to gender-based violence. Girls often face higher rates of exposure to child marriage in humanitarian and crisis settings. It can look like displacement. And what do we need in those moments when people are uprooted and exposed to increased harm? What you and I have been talking about, which is a broad spectrum of sexual and reproductive healthcare, specifically what Helms blocks, you know, access to safe abortion care, but it doesn't just stop there. We should also have gender-based violence counseling and support, obstetric care, skilled obstetric care, birth control, prescription menstrual health supplies, you name it, no matter the environment, no matter the life circumstances, people deserve access to those resources, to that skilled and quality healthcare. But Helms is like a brick wall standing between people in these settings that are at their most vulnerable, that are experiencing the most extreme moments of their life and those that can provide them the healthcare that they- and the counseling that they need. And then Helms is just like a brick wall in between them.

Jennie: We had a really good episode, I don't know, time lost all meaning with Jill Filipovic several years ago, really digging deep into this issue and like how you see the harms of Helms, particularly in these crisis settings where people are not able to get the care they need in the setting they're in. And then so they go and they turn to unsafe abortion and then they come back and then, then, then they can be treated for having the unsafe abortion. So they go and put their lives at risk for a service that we are preventing them from accessing a safe version of, and we can treat them after the harm is done when their lives are at risk. And that is tragedy upon tragedy of, like, harms that we are inflicting that could just so easily be solved by ensuring that these people were able to access the care they need in a setting where care is hard to get.

Rachel: Yes. That's an incredible episode by the way, that is a really wonderful episode. I would also take this moment to also mention the episode that we did with our senior fellow Gayatri Patel on sexual and reproductive health in emergencies. And it, you know, that's a real deep dive into the sort of broad spectrum and what we can really do from a ground up public health perspective to support people in these situations. So I'll link that in the show notes as well. And I believe that Gayatri also did a policy brief a few months ago on that as well.

Jennie: Yes. Yeah. So just so important and as we're talking about this, again, we don't know what the new version of the global gag rule is gonna look like. You may know as you're listening, but at the moment we don't, is that it may expand to include people in humanitarian settings. So this crisis we've just explained could get worse-

Rachel: Absolutely.

Jennie: In preventing people from accessing care where people are having to choose to take gagged funds or to not take money and, and it will just make the tragedy so much worse. We'll talk about global gag when it comes out and when we know what it looks like. But yeah, it just, it's one of those things that's in the back of my mind right now. It's thinking through these people who are already being prevented from accessing the care they need and then that might get worse.

Rachel: Yeah, no, you're absolutely right. And you and I have done this before. We were in these exact same roles, you know, when the first Trump administration was around and it's a lot, it's exhausting. It's a lot of, like, pivoting and putting out fires and it's only going to compound. It's just, it's only going to get worse. And so, it's really important that we rally around bringing attention, not only to this policy, but to how we can get rid of it and we move forward on this officially, once and for all.

Jennie: Okay. So now that we know about the Helms Amendment and all the many ways that it is harmful, what can we do to get rid of it? Like can it, is it just as easy as, you know, you hear about the Hyde Amendment and we can just get rid of it in appropriations by not putting it in like? Is it just that easy?

Rachel: Yeah, I mean, well, yes and no. It's absolutely, it's gotta go, it's gotta go. This is a reactionary policy that continues to be renewed annually as part of the appropriations process. It's caused harm abroad for 52 years. And if the US really wants to be, you know, to claim the mantle of protector and supporter of women and girls abroad, that starts with the provision of, you know, safe and timely and quality abortion care. And that requires repealing this amendment. To answer your question, the good news is that there is a legislative solution in place already. It's called the Abortion Is Healthcare Everywhere Act. It's been introduced before, but you know, we have a new Congress and it needs to be introduced again, but it would remove Helms' language from the Foreign Assistance Act and instead specify that US funds can indeed be used for abortion provisions abroad. And ultimately, if we could get it passed and it delivers on its promises, removing those barriers to safe and timely abortion care will make an incredible difference in rates of unintended pregnancy and in maternal mortality complications from unsafe abortions. As you and I were discussing before we started recording politically, I don't know, you know, if that will be the case, who's to say. But you know, as Jennie and I sit here talking, it's two days into the new Trump administration and we certainly don't have a robust sexual and reproductive health and rights champion sitting in the Oval Office right now. But I think that's why we need to be rallying around this act more than ever. That's why we need to be fighting for these legislative solutions more than ever because we're facing at the very least a few years of systematic dismantling of systems built to support the provision of care for women and girls and other marginalized communities. So, but the good news is at rePROs fight Back, that's not something we're ever stepping away from—protecting the people who need it most, caring for the people who need it most, always fighting for continuously improving health outcomes, fighting for the ability for people to pilot their own bodies, to make their own choices and live their own lives. That's something that we are never ever going to take a step back from. And part of that fight is investing in and getting behind the abortionist healthcare everywhere act.

Jennie: Okay. So, as you know, I always love to end the episodes by giving people something they could do. Like this was something that you and I had talked about as we were starting the podcast of, we can't just focus on- you know, we launched it in the first year of the first Trump administration of focusing on what the new terrible thing was and then just telling people about it like that-

Rachel: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: -was never going to be enough, like-

Rachel: Right.

Jennie: We could not leave people in that place of here's what's terrible. We wanted to end by focusing on: here's what you can do, here's how you can get involved and take action to make things better. So Rachel, what can our audience do?

Rachel: Okay, I'm just gonna start by saying the good news is I've got you covered.

Jennie: Woo.

Rachel: I put the show notes together so I will make sure that everything is included. I wanna start by, well, I think- tell your member of Congress that you wanna see the Helms Amendment repealed. I know it can feel like you're like, ugh, I gotta call Congress again. But I did that job. I was the person that, you know, when you call in to your senator's office or your house representative's office that you talk to and says, “okay, I'll pass your concern along to the representative or the senator” and I did it. I personally put the spreadsheet on the desk at the end of every day. It does get into your representative's hands. So, I would say call the Capitol Switchboard at (202) 224-3121. I have three phone numbers memorized and that's my husband, my mother, and the capital switchboard. [laughs] Not because I call it all the time, but because I used to work there. Yeah. And tell your senator in your house representative that you know, for you as a constituent, this is an important piece of legislation and you'd like to see yourself represented in what your representative does. So you could also, if you don't like talking on the phone, you can write or email. And if you do that, it's very likely you'll get a reply either about, you know, a specific piece of legislation that you're writing in about or you know, what your representative or your senator is doing surrounding that issue area. I would also say IPAS has a really great home base for information on Helms repeal. There's resources, there's social media toolkits, like, anything you would need to feel empowered or start a conversation, you can find it there. And then just to, you know, plug some of the resources that rePROs has worked on, as you said, Jennie, we just in December published a policy brief on this exact thing, how the Helms Amendment is, is harming millions of people worldwide. I'll make sure to include that brief in the show notes. And of course, our senior fellow Gayatri Patel's brief on sexual and reproductive health and rights in emergencies. That's really, really incredible information if you wanna dive deeper. And then lastly, my colleagues, Maniza Habib and Amani Nelson also recently published a set of fact sheets on- not only on the Helms Amendment, but on other extremely harmful international and domestic SRHR policy, including Global Gag and, and Hyde in the US. So I'll put those in the show notes too, but I think I would just say in all, keep learning, keep sharing, keep fighting. And in the meantime, please, please, please take care of yourself when you need to.

Jennie: And just because Rachel was being modest, yes, rePROs put out a brief on Helms, but Rachel wrote the brief, so like, let's make sure to give her her props. It was a great brief.

Rachel: Thank you.

Jennie: I know I mentioned it in our intros, but because she's here, we need to take the second to give her her flowers while she is here.

Rachel: Oh, thank you. Thank you so much.

Jennie: And you know, I know that feeling of like, I mean, does it really matter if I call my member of Congress and like this is one of those issues where they're not getting very many calls on it?

Rachel: Yeah.

Jennie: It's a global policy, so yeah, it could actually make a difference.

Rachel: It really can.

Jennie: Because you may be like one of one person calling in about it. So, it really does matter that you are letting them know that their constituents care about these issues.

Rachel: They really, truly depend on hearing from constituents. So, it makes a huge difference.

Jennie: Rachel, first of all, because you're here, I'm definitely going to embarrass you, but-

Rachel: Okay.

Jennie: I'm not gonna say what I was originally going to do, but Rachel has been with the podcast before it launched. Like she was here basically from day one. This has definitely been a team joint effort there, especially in the early days as we were trying to figure out episodes and how to get our path through the conversations. She was an invaluable sounding board for so long. She pitches ideas of things we should talk about. She puts together the amazing show notes if you go and look at our show notes. She manages the website, she writes briefs for us. She is just the absolute best partner in crime that I could ask for. And I am so grateful for her every day to have her working with us and working with me. And I am so happy and excited that she wanted to come on the podcast and talk about the amazing brief she wrote because she doesn't always wanna come and sing her praises. So, I'm so excited that she wanted to this time and that you all get to see how amazing she is. So, thank you Rachel.

Rachel: Oh my gosh, Jennie, thank you so much. That's too kind. That is too kind. I like being with this podcast. I mean, we've been together, like, for forever. We've been doing this forever.

Jennie: Forever.

Rachel: -and it's the best. I wake up every day and I'm so excited, you know, to go to work every day and be able to go platform, you know, like, incredible leaders and advocates and researchers in this field and continue these conversations and to be able to do it alongside you and our wonderful social media fellow Elena is just a cherry on top. So, thank you so much and I really, really, really appreciate the opportunity that you gave me for, for having me on. Thank you so much.

Rachel: Aw, thanks Rachel. Okay y'all, I hope you enjoyed my interview with Rachel. It was so wonderful to have her on. She did such a great job. I am so proud of her and all of the work she has done for re pros. Like I said, such a team effort. She is an invaluable role of the team. Like, I couldn't have made a better hiring decision when I hired her seven and a half years ago. So, just so, so excited that she was able to come on and talk about her great work that she has been doing. So with that, I will see everybody next week. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all!