Project 2025’s Sweeping Implications for Reproductive Health and Rights in the U.S.

In previous episodes, we’ve outlined Project 2025’s reach into global governance, LGBTQI+ health and rights, and the international sphere. Sabrina Talukder, Director of the Women’s Initiative at the Center for American Progress, sits down to talk with us about what the Heritage Foundation’s conservative roadmap means specifically for U.S. sexual and reproductive health and rights.

Project 2025 seeks to misapply the Comstock Act— a 150-year-old law which would allow enforcement power to investigate the U.S. mail for items of an “illicit,” “lewd,” or “immoral” purpose, including items related to abortion—as a national, backdoor abortion ban. Comstock could be applied not only to abortion education and medication sent through the mail, but medical equipment, as well. In addition, Project 2025 seeks to eliminate the Affordable Care Act, which protects free access to emergency contraception for 48 million women in the U.S. Project 2025 will no doubt negatively impact the U.S.’ already abysmal Black maternal health crisis.

Links from this episode

Center for American Progress’ Women’s Initiative
Center for American Progress’ Women Initiative on X
Center for American Progress on X
The 150-Year-Old Law that Could Impact Abortion Pill Access Today
Project 2025 is a Road Map to a Conservative United States. Here’s What You Need to Know.
What Could Project 2025 Mean for the LGBTQI+ Community?
Project 2025 is Already in Action

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Jennie: Hi rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I am sitting here slowly melting into a sweaty disaster. My AC went out and while I'm recording I can't have any fans or anything on, 'cause otherwise you'll hear them in the background and that would be super annoying. So, I'm just, like, sitting here slowly melting. The good news is that hopefully somebody will be here in 24 hours to fix it and I got a fan, so like, when it's blowing on me, like, It's fine. Like, it's not terrible. So, that's good. And the kitties seemed to be pretty unbothered by the whole thing, so that's good. 'cause I was a little worried that they were going to be a little warm. And considering Luna still trying to snuggle with me when it's super melty and gross, she seems fine. I am less fine wanting to cuddle with a furry friend while I'm sweating and gross. So, ew. Let's see here. So, I might have already told you all this and if I did, sorry to repeat myself, but I've been...I'm looking for, I'm a really big book person. I love reading. It's like my happy place. I do a lot of it and it's also my like, mindless, like I'm watching TV so let me also browse to see what books I need to buy or, or put on my TBR list, right? So I am constantly looking for new and exciting things to read. So, that has led to me having a ton of books downloaded on my iPad and I need to read it down. So, like, I had committed earlier in the year to really make a dent into what I have before I buy anything. But recently, Barnes and Noble, which is where I have most of my stuff, because I started with a Nook as my e-reader, had a big sale and a big sale on pre-orders. Y'all, it was terrible. I bought so many books, so many books and like, it's fine, I will read them, but also...all that progress to read down my TBR list, like, gone. So, I need to double down and be really good about not buying books again for a while. Honestly, there are worse habits to have than buying books, but again, this is also why I have an e-reader because I would live in a house of books if I didn't. So yeah, I need to read what I have and really crack down on that for a while. Yeah, it was bad, but I'm excited. Like I said, I have some vacation coming up where I'm gonna go to Wisconsin, so I'm hoping to be able to read a couple books there. I am in a bit of a reading slump at the moment. I've been reading the same book for forever. I've just been a little slow on it. So, I really, I need to finish it. It's not that I'm not enjoying it, it's just, I don't know, I'm reading it slowly which is unusual for me. And then, hopefully, I can read several while I'm home. So, fingers crossed y'all. I think that's all I really have going on right now. Like I said, it's hot and my brain's not working at peak performance because I am melting. So, let's just turn to this week's interview. We're continuing our conversation around Project 2025 to make sure that we are talking about all of the parts relevant to sexual and reproductive health and rights. And so, this week I'm really excited to talk about some of the domestic reproductive health, rights, and justice bits. I'm so excited to have on Sabrina Talukder with the Center for American Progress to talk all about the reproductive health rights and justice parts of Project 2025. So, let's go to my interview with Sabrina.

Jennie: Hi Sabrina. Thank you so much for being here!

Sabrina: Hi, thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to be back.

Jennie: I know it's been a year, almost, and it's been a year.

Sabrina: [Laughs] Yeah, that's the best way to put it. It's been really wild.

Jennie: So much. Okay, before we get started, let's have you introduce yourself and include your pronouns.

Sabrina: Hi folks, my name is Sabrina Talukder. I'm the director of the Women's Initiative at the Center for American Progress. And my pronouns are she/her/ella.

Jennie: Okay. So I'm very excited to have you come on and talk about some of the domestic repro stuff we're seeing in Project 2025, but it feels like a good place to start is just for people who haven't maybe listened to some of our other episodes talking about it, to have you just tell us a little bit about what Project 2025 is.

Sabrina: Sure. So, Project 2025 is an authoritarian playbook by the Heritage Foundation and it really outlines how far-right extremists plan to rule via a Trump administration in, you know, the first few days of the Trump, you know, a potential Trump administration. And they outline all different ways in which they would curtail the power of federal agencies, their staffing plans and everything that they would do differently from any other administration. And it is truly shocking how much they plan to overturn basic democratic norms and institutions, particularly when it comes to effectuating their political platform around reproductive care.

Jennie: Okay. So we've talked about some of the LGBTQ stuff in it, some of the big picture things in it. I think it's a great time to turn to some of the global domestic repro stuff that is in it. Can you tell us what you're seeing for domestic repro?

Sabrina: Sure. So, the two big things we're seeing on domestic repro in Product 2025 is first trying to misapply the Comstock Act to effectuate a backdoor national abortion ban. And those are a lot of words and I'll get into it.

Jennie: Yeah.

Sabrina: And second is stripping away the power of the Affordable Care Act such that it really impacts access to emergency care, I'm sorry, emergency contraceptive care.

Jennie: Okay. So let's start with Comstock. What are they trying to do with Comstock?

Sabrina: So, you know, Comstock is...I'll talk about what it is and then what they're trying to do because it's kind of hard to understand one without the other.

Jennie: Yeah.

Sabrina: And there's so much, you know, just basic misinformation out there. So, Comstock is basically a super, super old, like from the Reconstruction era law that's considered an anti-obscenity law. Meaning that it was a law to protect, like, the morals of society and they want to ban all things they considered immoral that went through the mail. And one of the parts of Comstock refers to, you know, anything in the mail that's "obscene, lewd or lascivious" writing. So, like, anything scandalous and...

Jennie: Yeah, it seems real narrow and specific. [sarcastically]

Sabrina: Yeah, yeah, exactly. Exactly. So, like, no romcom novels from Amazon.

Jennie: [Laughs]

Sabrina: But also, “any article or thing designed or intended for the prevention of conception or procuring an abortion.” And it's really important to note that since its inception, Comstock has never applied to legal abortions. And even before Roe v. Wade, there was a string of litigation from the thirties and forties that said that this only applies to unlawful activity. And so over time, even when it was, like, hot and running, Comstock never was highly enforced. And the Biden administration after the Dobbs decision came out released, you know, the Department of Justice released an opinion that said that Comstock is not enforceable because there's no way to understand the intent of the sender. Like, how do you know if surgery gloves that are in the mail are for an abortion that's unlawful? Like you don't know, you just don't know. And so, they said it's, like, super unenforceable and it's not a thing, you know, and Congress has not relied on Comstock or addressed Comstock in any way since inception, really. So, it's just, like, this super old law that's never been used, relied upon, or anything meaningful. But Project 2025 says that it wants to misapply the Comstock Act and it orders the Department of Justice to legitimize it. And, you know, it means a lot of things, but I think we have to step back from the actual playbook itself and focus on why they wanna do this. You know, far right extremists have tried to put forward a national abortion ban or a law like a federal law around a 15-week ban. Like, so many things they've tried so many different times and it's been extremely unpopular for reasons that should be very obvious and they've never been able to do it successfully. And in public they've really gone back and forth on whether or not they wanna bring a national ban, even though they voted for it consistently every time. And what Comstock, the misapplication of Comstock by the Department of Justice would allow far right extremists to completely circumvent the legislative process. They don't have to bring a bill to Congress, they don't have to face official public outcry because it would go through the Department of Justice. And again, like how possible is that? How effective is that? Is all up in the air. But what I want folks at home to really understand is that this is the intent, this is the goal of an extremist administration coming to power, is that they will override the institutional impartiality and integrity of the Department of Justice to effectuate their personal political agenda against bodily autonomy.

Jennie: I think that's so important to talk about because so many people in states where abortion is legal feel very safe and think that they're not gonna have to worry about not being able to access care. And this kinda shows that there is something that they need to be thinking about.

Sabrina: Absolutely. And I think people should be really afraid of, like, the goal. Like, this is the intent. And even if you, even if abortion is for whatever reason, not your priority, abortion access, the integrity of our democratic institutions is—that in and of itself affects every single person in the country. You do not want a Department of Justice that is at the whims of any administration of any president. They are kept extremely separate for a reason. And it shows the lengths that folks are willing to go to do something that is so wildly unpopular with the American people.

Jennie: And I know I also really worry about with this real big push around Comstock is not just abortion, but thinking about it applying to gender-affirming care and, like, getting broader and other things that could be caught up in it.

Sabrina: Right, right. So, the language is super broad, you know, and the language of Comstock itself is super broad 'cause it's like from ancient times, but also the way in which project 2025 discusses it is also really broad, which is very problematic. The exact language is that, you know, providers and distributors can be prosecuted for the mailing of abortion-related materials. And that could be interpreted to include a variety of providers who prescribe medication abortion, like physicians, pharmacists, nurse practitioners, and physician assistants. It can be mail carriers like USPS, the independent carriers like FedEx. It could be drug manufacturers that create generic versions of mifepristone and misoprostol, which are the two medicines used in a medication abortion. And you know, a prosecution itself. You know, what does it mean to prosecute abortion? That's abortion-related materials in mail. Like, it could limit it to medication abortion itself, or it could be super broadly based in materials commonly used in surgical abortions like dilators and suction catheters. And you know, the DOJ also has the authority to decide what punishment can be attached to a Comstock violation. So, it could be felony charges, monetary loss, professional license, prison time, et cetera. Again, it's not so much about the impact of this or the possibility of this. We have seen after Dobbs the mass chaos and confusion that providers are subjected to because of all the legal cases, because of all the changes that are happening. And we've seen people with desired pregnancies being turned away from emergency departments because people are too, understandably, too scared to go to jail for providing basic care. So, the idea that this can happen would have massive consequences. Whether or not, how effective it is or how it's actually, the bread and butter of how it's done, the idea that it can happen is damaging in and of itself.

Jennie: Yeah. When you talk about the chaos, like even just banning the mailing of pills would just create so much chaos. Like, the clinics cannot handle the influx of patients that would need to come in to get care. That would just throw the entire system that's already in chaos, into even more chaos.

Sabrina: Absolutely. And I think that there are two far reaching consequences that we don't talk about enough. The first is that maternity care deserts will proliferate and we are in a maternal care crisis. We are in a Black maternal mortality crisis. You know, the criminalization of medical providers will lead to an even greater shortage of maternity care professionals and resources. And so, you're eradicating basic healthcare for families and entire communities. And the second is, regardless of your political affiliation, regardless of your zip code, where you live, how you wanna vote, nobody wants politics instead of science to regulate drug safety determinations. What can be mailed is a determination made by the Food and Drug Administration, the FDA, you know, and how that's done, how the safety of it happens. All of that is from an independent body and weakening the independence of the FDA to advance, like, a far-right personal extremist ideology just fuels the politicization of medicine. And nobody wants that. Nobody wants to open their medicine cabinet and think about who allowed this medicine to come here into my medicine cabinet. Like, people just want access to care that they need.

Jennie: Okay. So that's Comstock, you said the next bucket of things you're worried about were around the Affordable Care Act. So what is that? I mean, that bucket, we know what the Affordable Care Act is. Sabrina: Project 2025 wants to outright eliminate and weaken portions of the Affordable Care Act, which of course every single American in this country relies upon or has benefited from in some way. And, you know, part of the Affordable Care Act is access to emergency contraception for free. And if Project 2025 came to life, 48 million women in the country would lose access to emergency contraception. And emergency contraception is more than, you know, it's more than just a pill. It's something that allows for safety, it allows for, like, the mitigation of trauma. And it goes back to the basic principles of bodily autonomy. And what we've seen post Dobbs is that people have, you know, because OB/GYNs have fled the states with abortion bans and because there's a shortage of medical professionals in general that work in OB/GYN or in emergency departments, et cetera, reliance on emergency contraception is becoming the norm because there's just not enough access, meaningful access to institutional health care. And so, by taking away this option, you are really taking away some of the last meaningful forms of access to reproductive care.

Jennie: Yeah. This takes me back to, like, Hobby Lobby and, like, getting to define birth control as abortion, like, certain forms of it. Yeah, like, just bad flashbacks of, like, trying to redefine it. And you can already see that, like, creep and like: is that, are IUDs next? Like, where are we gonna see this end?

Sabrina: Right. Right. And I think it's just like in Mean Girls, the limit does not exist. And that's, it's really all linked to the overturning of Roe v. Wade and the Dobbs decision because Roe v. Wade is based on the 14th Amendment 'cause it's based on the right to privacy. It's very different than other constitutional rights. The right to what you do in your home, the right to what you do in your body is now up in the air. And again, the only reason we have this state of confusion, of preventable medical trauma, all of it is because three far right extremist Supreme Court justices were appointed to the Supreme Court very recently. And that is the only reason why this situation is what it is. If that did not happen and Roe v. Wade was the law of the land, which was already imperfect for many reasons, then we wouldn't be in this situation.

Jennie: Yeah. I feel like this is all like bad deja vu of, like, people being, like, "they're not coming after birth control." Like, "you're being hysterical" and dah dah dah. Like, it's like, no, but like...it's already happening. They're already repeating that, that playbook of going after ones they think they can easily peel off like emergency conception, the lawsuit in Texas around Title X and minors, like, you're just seeing these exact same attacks that were used on abortion being repeated on birth control. Sabrina: Absolutely. And contraception is the next legal battle in the fight for reproductive rights. There are already cases being drummed up in district court and circuit courts around the country. It'll come to the Supreme Court sooner rather than later. And it is again, all because of the overturning of Dobbs. And you know, contraception is something so vital beyond the maintenance of pregnancy. It has so many medical uses, just like we've seen with the mifepristone and misoprostol. There are so many medical reasons that exist for these medicines beyond a personal need for an abortion. And that's why the FDA approved them. And if the judiciary keeps interfering with the regulation and power of the FDA, all Americans will be affected. And again, we just don't want the politicization of medicine because of the personal politics of far-right extremists.

Jennie: Okay. So, those are the two big streams you're following. Is there anything else you're keeping an eye on?

Sabrina: When it comes to Project 2025? There are so many things that are horrific, but those are the things that I think definitely keep me up at night. And you know, I think it's really important to remember that we are in a maternal care crisis that the United States has, you know, some of the worst statistics in the world, particularly for what's considered a "high income developed country." Women are three times more likely to die from preg-, I'm sorry, Black women and birthing people are three times more likely to die than their white counterparts. So, all of these things like not being able to see for care in emergency departments, maternity care wards shutting down because of the political climate, people not being able to access IVF—all of this disproportionately impacts marginalized communities that are already impacted by the criminal legal system and by systemic oppression.

Jennie: Yeah, so much to worry about and I do worry about the maternal health things, the deserts, the ending of maternal mortality boards, like, tracking the numbers, like, that is also a big concern.

Sabrina: Totally. I'm so glad you brought that up. Like in Idaho we have statistics that are really powerful and awful because there was a maternal mortality committee and you know, Idaho ranks last in the country for provider-to-patient ratio for mothers, and yet they want to have, or they wanted to have, you know, an almost full, total ban on abortion with exceptions that were not meaningful or real. And we saw what happened in Idaho and that should be a warning to other states and should be a warning to far right extremists that, you know, almost half of the OB/GYNs in the state fled because obviously they don't want to be criminalized for providing care that they took an oath to provide. Three maternity wards shut down. There have been a recorded eight patients that were airlifted out of Idaho to receive basic miscarriage management care and that is terrifying. And without the data for that, all of this could be just swept under the rug.

Jennie: And that has been so important for even getting the big push we're seeing around investing in Black maternal health right now. Right. Like, if we didn't have those numbers to be able to trace that huge disparity, we wouldn't be having this big push.

Sabrina: Right. Absolutely. And there are so many incredible organizations like the National Partnership for Women and Families, the, you know, IWPR, there are just, you know, the Black Maternal Momnibus, like they're just incredible organizations that are run by black women that serve communities of color that have been doing this for a long time. And we should do everything possible to make sure that they have the tools to really speak truth to power and make sure that these statistics just become things of the past.

Jennie: Okay. So I always like to end with an action item. So, what can our audience do to get involved?

Sabrina: Oh my gosh, there are so many things and it's like, you know, it's a spicy time, it's a spicy time. When it comes to Project 2025, I think the first thing that people can do is to know about it and to understand that this isn't just, like, a tweet. This is, like, an 880-page plan that has been thought out and it's ready, it's ready to go. That's the entire point of it. And the second action item is, you know, really more internal, like, understanding how the things in Project 2025 affect all of us and they affect people that we love. Everyone loves someone who's had an abortion. It is really that simple. And the people that we love deserve access to basic healthcare. Mothers, who are an overwhelmingly large group of people that seek abortions in the United States, deserve care and everyone in the country deserves access to medicine that has not been tampered by the political process.

Jennie: Yeah, I always say with Project 2025 and talking to your friends, it's so big and all-encompassing that maybe abortion isn't their issue. Maybe healthcare is or LGBTQ rights or, or, or, or, like it is so sprawling and covers so many aspects of people's lives that there is something in there that they care about.

Sabrina: Yeah. Yeah. It's such, like, a total overthrow of our society that like you care about cats, you care about golf, you care about the Department of Justice, there's something in there for everyone to keep you up at night.

Jennie: Yeah. Care about clean water.

Sabrina: Yeah. I want that. You want that. Like, we all want that.

Jennie: Sabrina, thank you so much for being here. I had so much fun talking to you again.

Sabrina: Of course. It's always a pleasure. Folks can reach out to me directly for questions or concerns. Like it's such a big issue, it's so important. And yeah, I just love chatting with you and love to chat with your audience as well.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Sabrina. I had so much fun talking to her and learning more about what was all in the domestic parts of Project 2025. And I will see all of you next week. Bye. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!