Let’s Talk Faith and Reproductive Health and Rights (Yes, It Can Be Done!)

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Often when we have conversations that feature both reproductive health and rights and faith, it seems the two subjects are diametrically opposed. But thanks to the large amount of diversity in the faith community, many individuals, communities, and organizations are supportive of bridging the gap between faith and reproductive health and rights! Reverend Katey Zeh, Executive Director for the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, host of the Kindreds Podcast, and author of the book Women Rise Up: Sacred Stories of Resistance for Today’s Revolution, sits down with us to discuss why it’s important for people of faith to show public support for reproductive health and rights.

It’s no secret that religious authorities strategically remove or look right past women’s stories in the Bible at Sunday services. Especially in the Catholic church, patriarchal standards are deeply embedded and women are nowhere to be see in the power structure. Even still, Women Rise Up highlights women’s stories in the Bible to include resistance, survival, and claiming their sacred worth as women apart from male progeny.

But it isn’t all ancient! There are many examples of the intersection of faith and reproductive health and rights existing in contemporary society, one of those being purity culture. The church’s active role in pushing abstinence until marriage creates a gap in the understanding of sex, consent, one’s own body, and healthy relationships and leaves young people unprepared for sexual and romantic encounters. Purity culture also contributes to the discrediting of contraception and abortion care, and the conflation of methods of birth control as abortifacients. This makes purity culture damaging in both adolescence and adulthood.

Religious liberty is being weaponized as a way to undermine the sexual and reproductive health and rights movement. The current administration’s religious refusal rule allows for medical professionals and providers to deny patients care if they have a any presiding religious objection. This disproportionately impacts women seeking contraception, abortion care, and other reproductive health care as well as members of the LGBTQ+ community seeking inclusive and judgement-free health care, as well.

Throughout history, there have been many religious leaders that have assisted women in accessing abortion care because they felt it was their duty to their congregation. Recently, though, conservative politicians and religious leaders have taken control of the narrative on abortion and changed it considerably and negatively. Unfortunately this change prevents people around the world from accessing the health care they need and have a right to.

links from this episode

Katey Zeh on Twitter 
Kindreds Podcast 
Women Rise Up: Sacred Stories of Resistance for Today’s Revolution
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice on Facebook 
Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice on Twitter
In God We Trust: West Wing Weekly episode 

Transcript

Jennie Wetter: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back a podcast on all things repro. I'm your host Jenny Wetter. In each episode, I'll be taking you to the front lines of the escalating fight over our sexual and reproductive health and rights at home and abroad. Each episode, I will be speaking with leaders who are fighting to protect our reproductive health and rights to ensure that no one's reproductive health depends on where they live. It's time for repros to fight back.

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Jennie Wetter: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back. Today we're going to talk about something we haven't talked about yet and that is faith in reproductive rights. So often when you hear about reproductive rights from a faith point of view, you're only hearing from people who are against reproductive rights. But there is a lot of diversity in the faith in the movement and a lot of faith traditions are really supportive of reproductive rights. So, and that being, I'm super excited to talk to the executive director of the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, host of the Kindred's Podcast and author of a brand new book, Women Rise up, sacred stories of resistance for today's revolution. Reverend Katey Zeh.

Katey Zeh: Hi, I'm so glad to be here.

Jennie Wetter: Thanks for being here, Katey. I'm so excited. We finally got to do this.

Katey Zeh: I know we go way back, so it's really fun to get to have a conversation like this with you.

Jennie Wetter: And I also, so I have also been following your podcast from the early days and really enjoy listening to that, but also, yeah, I have to tell you, I'm so excited. Uh, last week, well I guess now that when this comes out, two weeks ago, Katie was on the West Wing Weekly talking about, um, these amazing issues and it was wonderful.

Katey Zeh: That was kind of a bananas moment but really cool and I was totally nerding out the whole time, so thanks for that shout out. It was, it was really fun and I've been surprised at how positive the response has been to that segment. And it just reinforces for me how important it is for people of faith to be talking out about their support for reproductive rights.

Jennie Wetter: So I figured we'd start with your book that just came out. Um, I just finished it and I really enjoyed it. And it really made me think, I'm thinking back, I don't know if we've ever had this conversation, but I grew up Catholic and went to Catholic school K through eight, so some of the similar ish stuff. Um, and it just made me think back to like, yeah, you talk about not hearing women's stories when you were learning the Bible and we're going to church. And that struck me as like, yeah, other than Mary and like a very little bit, you just don't hear about the women at all.

Katey Zeh: Yeah. And to be fair, their stories are, are smaller. They're shorter, but they're still there. But they get strategically removed from, um, the lectionary or from the, the text that's read out loud in church. And so a lot of the stories, we don't know unless you've taken the time, which who has time to read through it yourself. But if you're, if you're leaning on religious authorities in on a Sunday morning service to educate you about women in the Bible, you're probably not getting much of an education at all, which is why I wanted to write the book.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. And I think one of the things you also mentioned was, um, just about the patriarchal structures that are definitely reinforced for sure in the Catholic religion where women definitely have no place in the power structure. Um, and that really struck me when reading the whole book.

Katey Zeh: Yeah. The power of the patriarchy. And I guess what gives me hope, unlike some feminists who feel like the Bible just cannot be redeemed for feminist causes, which I totally understand. But for me, what I find hopeful is that even in this text that was written under very oppressive structures that, you know, basically defined women by how many male children they could have, we still have these stories of women who found ways to survive and to resist and to kind of claim their sacred world as women apart from, um, their, you know, male progeny or their husbands. Like, so in that way, I'm like, yes, we might not have a lot, but there's, there's something there that we can hold onto and live into today for gender justice, um, in our, like our current world.

Jennie Wetter: I think the story with the clearest example in my head when I was reading it was the story of the midwives. In Egypt.

Katey Zeh: Yes. I love them.

Jennie Wetter: That was really powerful. And for people who probably didn't know because I, I'll be honest, I didn't, I don't remember that part of that. Um, do you want to talk about that real quick?

Katey Zeh: Sure. So this is the first chapter of Exodus where the Egyptian Pharaoh is trying to basically control, um, the Israelites by eliminating all of their, all of their baby boys. And so he commands the midwives Shiphrah and Puah to kill all the baby boys after they're born, like in the birthing room. And so what they do is they tell the Pharaoh, sorry, the Hebrew women just give birth so quickly that, um, we aren't ever there in time. So they, they find a way to use their particular knowledge about what happens in the birthing room to protect the Hebrew women and their children. Um, and it's just this great story. And of course that's the lead up to, um, the story of Moses. But I just love that they're so cunning and savvy and really risking a lot because their lives could have been taken at any point for having disobeyed the Egyptian Pharaoh, but they, they just believed that their, their role was to protect and um, I love that story. Yeah. There, there's some of my favorites too, so I'm glad you liked that one.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. That one was, yeah, that one really struck me. Um, there were a number of them, um, one that I don't know so much the story struck me, but you're talking about it cause I could relate hard to it was, oh no, no, I'm not gonna forget her name. No, cause she on the, she has named the woman who came up and touched Jesus robes.

Katey Zeh: Oh yes. We don't know her name.

Jennie Wetter: I don't go up to people and talk to them. I'm like, yes. Exactly.

Katey Zeh: Yes. I'm super weird around people that have any kind of notoriety. I just get very, I don't know if it's shyness or just uncomfortable, awkward. And so I strategically avoid people in a room if I feel like they have any kind of like fame or name recognition. And so I've always been envious of people who just kind of put themselves out there like this woman who really needed something that Jesus had and rather than ask for permission, she just, she does reaches out and gets it and heals herself. So maybe it'll make me a little bit more brave next time I want to talk to someone in the room.

Jennie Wetter: I always resist and I just, yeah, it was as I reading your stories, I'm like, yeah, no, exactly. I can see all of this happening where I would just be like, nope, can't talk to them. And then finally do. And something happens.

Katey Zeh: Right. And in that story too, she's kind of hoping to be sort of unseen. And so she reaches for the hem of the garment thinking that's like, that's the least visible thing that I can do. And then he feels something happened and he turns and says, who touched me? And she had the option to leave, but she chooses to do the brave thing, which is to tell her entire story about what's happened to her, including these doctors who have tried to stop her bleeding and I've only made her worse. And she spent all of her money and then he calls her daughter and says, your faith has made you well. And I've always felt like, yeah, it's not really, Jesus is kind of passive in this story. If you think about it like she does. She's the catalyst for her healing, which I think has so much resonance for the kind of conversation that we're going to have today about the role of faith and women and reproductive rights. So the other thing that really struck me, and you don't really talk about it, but I, I read it and I'm like, yes, I didn't even think that Katey and I needed to talk about this was purity culture.

Katey Zeh: Oh boy. Yes.

Jennie Wetter: Um, I so again, Catholic schools and so I don't know if I am too old and I missed the worst of it with like the purity rings and stuff or if it wasn't as big where I was or within the Catholic Church because yes, I had sex ed from a nun. Yes. It was very much abstinence-only, but there wasn't the purity rings and like you talk about a ceremony at your church or church group or something to get to get rings very publicly.

Katey Zeh: Yes.

Jennie Wetter: And that's not something I had an um, yeah, I think that's definitely something that's worth a conversation about.

Katey Zeh: Yeah. Well we can dive in there if you want. So I don't know. I guess we can talk about when we were, I was born in 1983 so this would have been in, you know, the late nineties, early two thousands, and I'm pretty sure that the kind of purity messages that I got were very much steeped in a curriculum that was coming out of the Southern Baptist Church, if I'm not mistaken. So probably you wouldn't have gotten it in the Catholic church, but I was also not part of this other Baptist church either. So I think they did a really good job of kind of sharing this curriculum and, and frankly, you know, advertising it to youth leaders in the south in conservative or Evangelical churches. And yeah, I mean I was, I was 13 years old and frankly was pretty naive. I mean, I hadn't really dated right year 13, like in eighth grade or something like that. And the message was, you know, in order to have, um, a good marriage later in life, the rule was you cannot have a sexual relationship with anyone until your wedding night. And the rules are very clear. And at 13, that sounded like a good idea to me. I mean, I didn't know marriage didn't seem like, oh, I'll get married when I'm 22 or something like that. I mean, there was no prospect of having any kind of serious relationship and I felt like, well, this is going to guarantee me a happy marriage later in life. It seems like logical for me to take this pledge. And of course all my friends were doing it. So there's the peer pressure parts. Uh, but the funny thing about my purity ring ceremony is somehow my ring never got there. And so I actually never, I took the pledge, but I never wore the ring. And I don't know, there's probably symbolic stuff there I could, I could write about sometime, but I quickly found out as my friends got older, we went into college and of course my own theology changed. But I had friends who got married following this purity culture very closely, um, and then ended up in really terrible marriages. And so all of that started to break down as I saw them getting divorced. Um, sometimes from really violent situations and just thinking, wow, the church really failed to tell us about what it meant to be in a healthy relationship with someone. Not just the do's and don'ts, but how do you work through things and come through conflict? Like those things were never discussed.

Jennie Wetter: Oh, absolutely not.

Katey Zeh: Just focused on like this very specific kind of sexual behavior. And, um, I just think it does such a disservice both, I mean, especially to young girls, but also to boys too.

Jennie Wetter: At least mine was definitely framed and like you mentioned happiness, but right. You like being abstinent and not having sex since you get married. That's how you have a happen.

Katey Zeh: Right, right, exactly. It's kind of a fairy tale way of talking about relationships that like fairy tales is also not true.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. And I felt very unprepared for for life. Right. I didn't have a lot of those relationship skills or things that you should get in a much more comprehensive evidence based sex education that like birth control, like that was never talked about. And if it was, it was like condoms don't work. Like it's not effective. Like you shouldn't like yeah, no, they don't work.

Katey Zeh: Right. And the other thing I've talked about with my friends who've gone through or are immersed in purity culture is as, as we've gotten older and gotten married and some of us have wanted to become pregnant, that we thought becoming pregnant was going to be so easily because the message was if you have sex, you will get pregnant. And then so what do we do then when, when actually getting pregnant on purpose is not as simple as we once thought and really not having an understanding of how fertility works. So it's just kind of interesting to think about all the different ways in which pretty culture is damaging starting from adolescents, but kind of going all the way through into adulthood as well.

Jennie Wetter: We've touched... Mentioned birth control. That is definitely also something where you see certain faiths being weaponized to say that they're very much against birth control and they're in power right now. And those are the voices that are the loudest and that you're hearing from. But that's actually kind of a, sorry, a very minority held belief in the faith community that you shouldn't use birth control. But that's what gets amplified.

Katey Zeh: Yeah, absolutely. And I think too, the, the conflation or confusion of of contraception and abortion seems to be the tactic that they're trying now. Like, okay, well certain methods are fine, but these other methods are abortifacient, you know, um, they're not actually, um, contraceptives. And I think that that's where they're trying to sort of like drive a wedge publicly and confusing people about how birth control works. Um, so, and that's actually worked really well. And the other one of course, um, is around religious freedom. And do employers have to provide, um, have to provide contraception if it's like quote unquote against their religious beliefs. Um, and again, that's been very, very successful. But yeah, I mean, in Protestant circles, in which I work, birth control is never really been an issue. And in fact, uh, growing up in the United Methodist Church, their position is that intentional parenting is actually a moral good. And so using contraception to plan if, when and how many children is actually, you know, being faithful to the call to make good moral decisions about our lives. And so, um, actually think there's like a whole lot of moral arguments we made in favor of why birth control is good in addition to women having the ability to like control their bodies and make moral decisions. But I think as a common good issue, it's like it's good for people to be able to be very intentional about whether or not they want to parent.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. And that just reminds me of talking about religious refusal or um, objections to covering birth control. But there's kind of been a whole weaponization of using religious liberty to, as a corporate value, not a personal values. So the corporation can decide they don't want to cover birth control or cover things. And that's not an infringement on my personal religious liberty. It's on the corporate religious belief.

Katey Zeh: Right. So conflation of faith and power, both political power and economic power is really problematic, especially if you returned to the, to the text itself. Like that is not what to me as I read the Gospel is like, that is absolutely antithetical to what Jesus was talking about in terms of how we're supposed to live. It's not about gaining political power, economic power over others and using that, using faith language to manipulate and coerce people or control people. I don't know how people can disassociate the core messages of the faith. Uh, like the cognitive dissonance that has to happen there is really hard for me to wrap my mind around. But, um, it's been very useful in upholding white supremacy and Christian nationalism and all of those things. But it's really disturbing I think, um, for folks like me to see, uh, Christianity getting conflated with economic and political power.

Jennie Wetter: And, you know, I always saw my faith so we weren't necessarily, I would say super religious, but my mom was very much, um, a person who does a lot of volunteer work and did a lot of giving back. And so I had very good modeled behavior that I grew up with. And so I always saw like doing good for others was like a core value that I came up with. So I remember going to college and meeting two roommates I had later who came from, um, a very conservative tradition that were going into the medical field. One was going to be a pharmacist and one was going to be a physician's assistant. They were talking about how, you know, they weren't going to provide care to certain people and it blew my mind because that's not a thing. You can't do that. Like I don't understand. You take care of people. That's what you do. And it was mind blowing to me. So to see it happening on such a big scale right now is something I, I just can't wrap my mind around.

Katey Zeh: Yeah. And again, putting personal individual beliefs over a greater call to care for people who hold a whole host of beliefs and ideas about things. Um, again, I just feel like the call of Christianity in my view is really about community and less about my personal beliefs about things. And so, yeah, I would, I struggle hearing with that. It's almost like, oh, they're almost being, um, like strident, um, you know, very strident in terms of the care they were going to provide. I'm going to, I'm going to weaponize my viewpoints to keep people from getting the care that they need and deserve.

Jennie Wetter: I just, I really have this strong memory of being like, but you can't, that, that's not a thing. Like I don't, that's not a thing. Like you legally can't do that. Oh, you can do that. Okay.

Katey Zeh: Especially if your religious beliefs happen to be conservative Christian. Yeah.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. Some of these things that are like get to like my real core and for some reason that's one of those that just um, really angers me and I justly can't wrap my head around for it. Just can't understand refusing to take care of people.

Katey Zeh: Right. And I think it's in part why, you know, folks in our generation and younger really don't want to participate in formal religious structures because they see the hypocrisy or they see a lack of relevance in their own lives. And really it makes me sad, but I also totally get it. I really understand why people don't want to participate or hold up institutions where they see them not living into the values that they proclaim. I get it.

Jennie Wetter: So maybe we should take on the big one, which is abortion. And again, you only hear from certain points of view and when you often hear people of faith talking about abortion, it's very much in the anti-choice vein. Um, and not talking about the value of people who can get pregnant and respecting them.

Katey Zeh: No, absolutely. And I always like to start conversations like this, talking about the history of the clergy consultation service because it's a part of our history that most people don't know, which is in the years prior to Roe versus Wade clergy, mostly White Protestant and Jewish rabbis and members of the clergy and, and some lay women really were helping women get access to abortion care when it was illegal and they felt like that was part of their duty because they saw people dying in their congregations. And it really was a health care crisis. And so, um, I like to remember that there have always been people, I mean going back to the texts Shiphrah and Puah, the Hebrew midwives, like there are always people who are making sure that women get the care that they need and they're have, there always has been people of faith in this country who have been advocating for reproductive rights and making sure that women get the healthcare that they need. But I think that in the years since Roe, the conservatives have done such a good job around controlling the public narrative. And I think part of it is I think folks in general want to have clarity about life's most complex issues, things about life and death and why bad things happen. And the talking points from conservatives, uh, religious leaders and political leaders around abortion, they're so clear. They're so clear and there can be a comfort in that. Um, and I think for those of us who support access to abortion from a faith based perspective are willing to hold that there's just a lot of stuff that we don't know or understand. And you know, I think that fetal life does have value. And I think that abortion is a moral decision. And I also believe that every person has the ability to make a decision for themselves about what to do in a time when a pregnancy is just not something that they can sustain for whatever reason. And it's, it's less about when does life begin, when does personhood begin? I don't have clear answers around that, but I do know that when I look at the story overall of kind of who we are as people of faith, there's very little about abortion, but there's a lot about reproductive decision making and reproductive oppression. And as someone who strives to follow the model of Jesus as someone who showed compassion and care for, for the marginalized, I feel like my call is not to judge. It really is to accompany people through difficult moments, including what to do with a pregnancy that is not sustainable for them for whatever reason. And so, you know, that's the message that I bring. And I think that there are folks for whom that answer does not satisfy their questions because they want to know when, when does life begin and when does personhood begin? I frankly feel like those are questions that are mysterious and sacred, and I don't have clear answers for them, but I am very clear about what my call is. And again, that's to care for care for my neighbor as I care for myself. And that means caring for people with unintended pregnancies.

Jennie Wetter: I was really brought into this early, I don't know, maybe in fifth or sixth grade, but somebody I went to school with asked me to go with her, to go to Madison to go save babies.

Katey Zeh: I mean, that's a great mission. Let's go save some babies!

Jennie Wetter: Who is going to say no to that? And I remember going home and all excited and sitting down at the barstool talked to my mom and I'm like, hey, can I go this weekend with so-and-so to go save babies? And she's like, Huh? She's like, okay, like let's, let's sit down and talk about it. And it was very much a conversation about empathy and putting yourself in someone else's shoes and just, okay, have you thought about the scenario or what if this is happening? Have you thought about these things? And then she gave me the agency to make my own choice and she said, okay, so do you still want to go? And I said, no, because I thought about the, the women because that was how, uh, this was, I don't know if I was in fifth grade, like early nineties. Um, so you only thought women not pregnant people. And I could just think about the women and think you have to respect them and what's going on in their lives. And it also gave me skills going forward, um, of getting information and thinking about other people and other people's perspectives and then making your choices.

Katey Zeh: Right. You know, even to think about just the, the basic story around Mary and being the mother of Jesus, you know, she agrees to the call and we don't often talk about her consent. And I've often wondered, I wonder if the angel had gone to some other folks first who said, no thank you. You know, I never thought that that might be possible that Mary was the first one to agree. Um, and that perhaps there are others who said, no, I'm not able to do this.

Jennie Wetter: Well and that takes me back to our earlier conversation with purity culture and consent is not something that was talked about and if it was it was the girl, it was your responsibility to say no is definitely how I was given it.

Katey Zeh: Absolutely. And then just assuming that a marriage contract means that then consent is implied. I think that was also the other message. And so that was another thing I think about my friends who are going through marriages where their, their male partners just assumed that like sex was on the table whenever, and again the messages around purity culture also are not, are harmful to boys in terms of constructions of masculinity. And the expectation is that you have a super high sex drive and then that's what's going to define your marriage once, once you, once you get to that point. So yeah, I agree with you. Like we're not having within faith communities, we're not having, well I should say some of us are not having complex conversations about these really, really tough life issues and frankly they should start from the time our kids start talking or even before like all the way through, um, you know, all the way through to the end because we're all in human relationships all of the time and consent should be part of all of our relationships.

Jennie Wetter: We're even seeing all of these disparate like little bits of conversation we're having right now as separate things. And not saying that it's one big story about agency and autonomy, um, over your body. So consent, um, whether I choose to have an abortion, birth control, like all of these things are just fundamental to my person. And that again is something that you're not really taught about in abstinence-only or you know, I had no sort of, I know when you talk about comprehensive sex ed now it starts much younger with very simple basic things and that literally I had something in like I want to say sixth or seventh grade and that was it.

Katey Zeh: Wow. So they waited quite a while to have that conversation. Yeah. I mean I have a four year old daughter and when she was born I decided I'm going to use the correct anatomical words for all of her body parts. Like before she could even talk, because for me it was more about getting comfortable for me saying the words. And then for her, she's never really known any different. But I think even just giving a basic vocabulary to young kids tells them like you are then able to claim your body and also to describe what's happening to your body. And some folks just don't even have that basic comfort with like their own just anatomy that they're born with. Um, so I've been thinking about like what that looks like and as she's gotten a little bit older, you know, talking about, I don't say like give me a hug. I say, may I please have a hug? Just those very, very basic things which seem, I don't think that we give young children enough respect for their, for their personhood and that they are human beings with desires and feelings. And if we start early with girls or, and our boys just saying like, you have to show affection to adults like it, it doesn't challenge that, that power dynamic that's there. And so I've tried really hard when she's young. I'm sure it will get more complex as she gets older. But just to talk about like, yeah, consent from early on, like even though you're, you're younger than I am, you get to decide if physical affection something you want or not. So it's a work, it's a work in progress. I think the other thing you're pointing to is that we're kind of all left on our own and to figure out these things and some of us are able to navigate them okay. But then some people don't have the resources to figure these things out and we shouldn't leave everybody behind like sorted out without the skills and um, and language that they need to do it.

Jennie Wetter: You know, again, the healthy relationships thing was something that really affected me later in life. Like, you know, getting in a bad relationship and then not understanding that things that I might've been taught before that hey, this is abusive. Like here's a healthy way to navigate that. Like it just there that didn't exist. And I think even maybe that some of that is timeliness. Like I think you get more of that now, but probably not in abstinence only.

Katey Zeh: So one of the redeeming things I think about faith communities and why they are, I think still useful is that it's one of the few institutions that I'm aware of that touches people throughout the lifespan from birth to death. And so there are these great opportunities to have intergenerational conversations in places that they might not otherwise be happening. And I think if we could get to the point where we could have these kind of rich conversations, the faith communities are wonderful spot to have them.

Jennie Wetter: So I want to take it back to your book because there was a sentence in here that really struck me as just so true. And it was, um, towards the end. And you talk about how the fastest way to extinguish a woman's power is to raise questions about her sexuality.

Katey Zeh: Yeah. So I was talking specifically about Mary Magdalen in that chapter, um, because it talks about feeling angry about something. The history of interpretation around her has always put her as this other woman in the text who is nameless and who is sinful. And so she gets conflated with that story because of a pope back in the day. And also the sin is assumed to be a sexual sin. And so it really has disempowered the legacy of Mary Magdalen, who is the first witness of the resurrection, who is told to go and preach the good news. And instead the history around her has become obsessed with her sexuality. And so I think there's so much resonance for today, and gosh, even thinking about going into an election cycle and seeing all of these amazing women candidates, um, I don't know, I haven't been as tuned in, but I can just imagine the kinds of things that are being said about their bodies or how they show up or what they look like or, um, we certainly saw that, um, when Hillary Clinton was running for president. And it's just, it seems like the quickest way to yeah. To just like shut down any other conversation about, about a woman is to just make assumptions about her sexuality, whether or not they're based in truth.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. That was just, I don't know, just really jumped out at me when I saw it and I was like, that is so true.

Katey Zeh: Yeah. And the double standards for men, right? I mean, there's just not the same baggage. Um, and it goes back to the purity culture thing, right? Like, women are supposed to be beautiful and they're supposed to be attractive, but as soon as, as soon as someone responds to that in a way we're supposed to like shut our sexuality off and so there's just no way to win.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. I mean there's definitely the idea of shaming very much built in. So if you do decide to have sex, like it's built right in, right? Like you're chewed gum or yes. Um, the tape doesn't stick. Yes. What was the one I saw recently? Spit in a cup I think was the one I saw recently.

Katey Zeh: Yeah, you're used up and you're dirty and um, yeah, I've heard it's amazing how those kinds of analogies show up everywhere. I'm like, who are the people that are spreading these analogies around about like people who've had sex or used up and oh well the one I talked to about was like the ripped package. Right? Like you wouldn't give someone a present where all the packaging has been ripped. I'm like, oh gosh, this is just, this is really troubling. And I think it goes to even more of a control, cause it's not just about like intercourse. It's about like really you're not supposed to engage your sexuality at all. You're supposed to cut it off and then as soon as marriage comes, then you're supposed to turn it on. Like it's a light switch. It's just so impractical. Ugh.

Jennie Wetter: And then everything's, then you'll be happy for never having experienced anything.... and Woo, I'm glad to get out.

Katey Zeh: It makes no sense. Like there's no logic there. And you know, for me, I call myself the compassionate pragmatist. It's like I want to have real conversations with people about things instead of operating in these like fantasy thinking because it's just, it just doesn't make sense. And so I think, um, I come from a faith tradition, United Methodism, that really values reason and learning. And I just feel like we've got to combine that with our ancient teachings and our theology and we've got to use our brains as well as our hearts when we talk about these things.

Jennie Wetter: So we've touched on a lot of kind of a general myths that faith, people of faith all believe x or y. Do you have any other ones that you wanted to touch on?

Katey Zeh: Around sexuality specifically? Being a minister now people think that ministers don't swear and I can assure you that that's not true. We do swear and we are humanand like some of us like alcohol occasionally, so yeah. But I think just the expectation that ministers are somehow above or um, not fully human. We are fully human and we make mistakes too.

Jennie Wetter: No, I think that's a good one. And especially coming from the Catholic church where it's very much framed that way, right?

Katey Zeh: Yeah.

Jennie Wetter: Like the pope is infallible and like that's very much of the tradition I was taught.

Katey Zeh: That's a heavy burden. I'm thankful I don't have that on my shoulders cause woo goodness. That would be a lot. That would be a heavy burden to carry.

Jennie Wetter: With all of this and all the things happening right now around reproductive health and rights. What can, how can people of faith fight back? How can they engage in this?

Katey Zeh: So I think what we're seeing now with the abortion bands being so extreme that I do think people are asking the question, what can I do if I've done nothing before? Um, so I would say one, if you are someone who's in a faith community already, you know, are there people that you might just broach the subject with and see if there are other people who feel the same way. I would also encourage you if you want to do activism to kind of bring that to the people who are already on the ground doing the work and saying, Hey, I'm a person of faith and I want to support you. What's a way that I could partner? And I also think just doing some exploration around how your faith and your beliefs inform your position on this issue and start talking about it and getting good at, at saying it out loud. Because I think what happens is there are people who say, I'm pro choice and I'm a person of faith, but they don't know how to talk about those things together. So just do some exploration. I mean you can pick up my book, women rise up and maybe study some of the passages that you haven't seen before and just start kind of crafting for yourself, your own narrative that feels authentic to your faith, that you would feel comfortable sharing in conversation with people. Maybe even publicly if you have a platform for it. Cause I think we've got to talk to conservatives who are using faith language. We have to speak back to them with faith language in order for us to have any hope of having a conversation that brings us all together. So that's what I'm going to encourage you to do. Like look for people who, who feel the same way, start diving into the sacred texts and start practicing what it means to talk as a person of faith who supports reproductive rights.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. And I think having those conversations is so important because I think right now people assume silence is agreement.

Katey Zeh: Absolutely. Yes. And I have been watching for organizations and people to speak out in this moment and um, and some of them I've been surprised had been willing to speak out for the first time. And so the other thing I would say is if you are going to put yourself out there, let folks know ahead of time so that when the backlash comes you are, you are going to be held and um, if they're religious coalition for reproductive choice can be helpful. I would encourage you all to reach out to us. We'd be happy to talk with you about, um, what's going on in your local community and connect you to the people that we know.

Jennie Wetter: Yeah. Well Katey, thank you so much for doing this. Thanks for having me. It was really fun and everybody make sure to check out Katey's book women rise up and we will include it in the show notes along with links to her podcast. So you can also listen to her and her co-host Ashley talk about amazing things around feminism and faith.

Jennie Wetter: For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website. At reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at rePROs Fight Back. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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