Krystale Littlejohn and Rickie Solinger on their New Book, Fighting Mad: Resisting the End of Roe v. Wade

Mourning, anger, and grief were top-line emotions after the overturning of Roe v. Wade. Still, a recently released collection of essays and stories highlights the very real and inspiring on-the-ground work and experiences of reproductive justice leaders, health care professionals, patients, artists, legislators, and more in the wake of Roe’s overturning. Krystale Littlejohn and Rickie Solinger, editors of Fighting Mad: Resisting the End of Roe v. Wade, sits down to remind us about the fact that resistance is everywhere in the fight for abortion and reproductive justice in the United States.

Criminalization, poor and inefficient media coverage of sexual and reproductive health, digital surveillance, religious tyranny, and fear and confusion among medical providers are all barriers in the sexual and reproductive health labyrinth in the U.S. that many have had to navigate. Fighting Mad’s essays explores the ways the SRHR patients, providers, advocates, and leaders have navigated these barriers, offering their reflections and perspectives for a better future.

Links from this episode

Fighting Mad: Resisting the End of Roe v. Wade
Krystale Littlejohn on X
National Network of Abortion Funds
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Hi rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, it is June. I am not ready, mostly because I am not ready to deal with SCOTUS season. Like I am really nervous about bad decisions coming down, and I'm not ready to face any of that yet. I just, no, I don't wanna, I don't wanna, y'all. I can't believe it...yeah, it, it's, I'm not ready. That's all I have to say is I'm, I'm not ready. It's stressing me out and boooo. But I did have some fun things. This weekend, an old roommate was in town. She had a surprise business trip and, like, texted me out of nowhere and I hadn't seen her in so very, very long and that she was gonna be in town. So, we were able to go out to dinner and catch up on Sunday. And that was so much fun. I am planning a trip for the fall, so that's also fun. So I'm trying to balance out the stress, terrible SCOTUS decisions with fun things, so. And maybe a trip to Wisconsin to see my mom. So, like, there are good things in the future. I can see them, don't stress. I need to not just stress about the bad things. And in that vein, I've been trying to be better about meditating. It's not going super well but I have a friend who is looking to become a meditation teacher. So, they set up a class for people to sign up to help them in their learning. So, I've been part of his class and it's been nice to, one, to see him, but also to like, try to be more intentional about it and take the time to step back and, like, meditate and try to not let all of the, like, stress and all the other things get to me. I've not been great at it, y'all. I've been letting busy life, like, overwhelm, taking a little bit of time away to take that time. I need to be quiet and quiet my mind. So, I'm trying to recommit to be better after I had a week where I just did none at allcause I was busy and that's not helpful to anybody. So, I've got, I think a couple more wee 'ks to that class. So, I am gonna try to be better through at least the rest of that, but hopefully get it built into my, like, routine so that I am being good about doing it just to have that little bit of quiet in my mind every day. So, fingers crossed, y'all, fingers crossed. Like I said, not been going great about setting up the new routine but I would like it to happen. With that, I think we're just gonna go to this week's interview. I am really excited. I have two amazing guests, Krystale Littlejohn and Rickie Solinger who edited this great book, Fighting Mad: Resisting the End of Roe v. Wade. It's got so many wonderful essays in it, I highly recommend reading the book, but they are here to talk about their book and some of the essays in it, and it was just a delightful conversation and it was so much fun to get to talk to Krystale and Ricky. So with that, let's go to my interview.

Jennie: Hi Krystale. Hi Ricky. Thank you so much for being there today.

Ricky: Hi!

Krystale: Hi Jennie, thanks for having us.

Jennie: So, before we get started talking about the book, would you like to take a quick second and introduce yourselves and include your pronouns? Let's go first with Krystale.

Krystale: Hi everybody, I'm Krystale Littlejohn. I'm an Associate Professor of Sociology at the University of Oregon, and I use she pronouns.

Ricky: And I'm Ricky Salinger. I'm a historian, been toiling in this domain of reproductive politics for about a hundred years, 110, and I use she pronouns also.

Jennie: I am so excited to have the two of you on here today, and as I was telling Crystal before the interview, even more excited that I had some time yesterday to actually finish the book. Before the interview today, I was worried I wasn't gonna quite finish. But I'm so excited to talk to you about your book, Fighting Mad: Resisting the End of Roe v. Wade. Do you maybe wanna take a quick second and tell us about the book overall before we dig deep into specific sections?

Ricky: Okay. Maybe I'll start and say a few things quick. And first of all, when we found out that Ruth Bader Ginsburg was dead, it was very clear. The first thing that just was such a sharp stab in the heart was that this court as constituted, and especially as it would be constituted once her place was filled, would be their first act would be to overturn Roe v. Wade. And sitting at my desk, I thought either I will slit my throat or I will make a book because that's what I know how to do. And I just wanna say that at the same time I began to hear from people who said, what's the matter with everybody out there? Where are the demonstrations in the street? Where are, don't the women in Texas care about what's gonna happen to them? And I kind of knew instinctively that there was a lot going on out there that people were really organizing to do all kinds of things. So, I called up my brilliant friend and colleague, she's more of a friend now than she was then, Krystale Littlejohn. And I said, let's do this. And she said, let's do this. And so, we began to find who was out there doing the most creative and incisive and effective things to resist the Dobbs decision.

Krystale: No, I think that that really summed it up, Ricky. I think that as soon as we knew what was coming, I knew I had to do something. When we decided to put this book together, I knew that we were going to be doing something so important for people who are not plugged in to various networks and don't know what's going on and might not have the opportunity to learn about what's going on because of how these things can be lost to history when there's so many moving parts. And there can be a tension on some people and some people's experiences and not others. And with this book, it gave us an opportunity to shed light on all of the important work that is being done and to demonstrate, as you were just saying, Ricky, that even when things are not visible to people, it doesn't mean that it's not happening. And it doesn't mean that there isn't really crucial work being done to support abortion access and reproductive justice, even in the light of state oppression or in the face of state oppression.

Ricky: Yeah. I wanna add just as a sort of another pillar of overview is that one of the additional reasons I think we were really excited about doing this, was that it would provide such a great, if depressing, but also exciting opportunity to demonstrate what reproductive justice means. And so, this is a word that's out and about and you know, the sort of the wider the reach of reproductive justice is the more it needs to be supported with examples and definition because it gets picked up as a catchphrase and people don't, sometimes don't really know how to use it and what what it means. And I think that the book really draws in from so many arenas demonstrating what it takes to achieve reproductive dignity and safety. And since this moment is so defined around abortion, the loss of abortion rights, the loss of the ability to resist coercive pregnancy and coercive childbearing, that the, for many people who thought that reproductive rights really meant abortion rights, in some ways this moment reinforces this. But the ways that Fighting Mad demonstrates what's necessary for reproductive dignity, safety, for reproductive justice to prevail are just legion in this book. That reproductive justice involves environmental justice and economic justice and decency within the sites of incarceration. And there's just that you cannot have what we cavalierly called choice without all of these other rights that support autonomy over one's body. Personal autonomy.

Jennie: I really enjoyed that you started the book with the section on Roe was never enough. I think there's a lot of people that, you know, joined in the fight since the loss of Roe who are asking for us to bring Roe back are missing that--that Roe was already the compromise, that there were so many people who weren't able to access care. I think it was a really important place to start.

Krystale: Absolutely. I think one of the key things that we wanted to start the book with was demonstrating the ways that Roe had shortcomings even as people imagined that it was securing access to abortion for everybody that needed it. And so, we have several essays in this section that just demonstrate what it looked like. So, there's an essay by Dr. Carolyn Sufrin that talks about or writes about the challenges facing incarcerated people, incarcerated pregnant people, and the ways that they were not able to get access to their constitutional right to abortion even when Roe was the law of the land. We have an essay by Sheila Desai focusing on the lack of attention to the abortion experiences and needs of Asian people in the United States, and the ways that the myths of the model minority can obscure their healthcare needs and can lead people to misunderstand their needs for abortion access. We also have a really great essay alongside these other essays that are really crucial for helping us understand the different populations negatively affected by structural inequalities, activist Coya White Hat-Artichoker has a fantastic essay on Indigenous reproductive justice and the ways that the reproductive rights and needs of indigenous people have been violated by the United States over the course of centuries. And so, there's just so much work being done to advocate for the needs of people who need abortion access and who needed it under Roe v. Wade. And when the constitutional right to abortion access was there, but the structural...and other conditions weren't in place to ensure that people had access to abortion. And so, that was a really key approach that we wanted to take, was starting by uncovering the shortcomings of Roe so that we could then show through various essays how people on the ground across domains are responding to the Dobbs decision in light of what were already shortcomings, even when, even before the Dobbs decision came down.

Ricky: And I just wanna add that the decision to start with why Roe wasn't enough was really important in speaking directly to what we were advocating in this book that is a full panoply of reproductive rights, but also, and relative to what I was talking about before, having the book demonstrate what reproductive justice means at the core of reproductive justice is a commitment to centering and starting with the ways that, with the lived experiences, the lived reproductive experiences of some of the most resourceless women in this case in the United States. And so, that's what this opening section does. It models the reproductive justice perspective framework because it starts there. It says you need to look at what people in these categories, people in these groups, people with these characteristics are bereft of, striving for, resisting, agitating for. Because then we can really understand not only what's missing, but what actually everybody needs in order to have reproductive dignity. So, that's a very reproductive justice way to begin.

Jennie: I have to say, I had a special place in my heart for the section on never-ending emergency, never ending fight. As someone who has been doing this work day-to-day for 16 years, I'm tired y'all. Like, I felt that section in my bones. Do you want me to talk a little bit about that section?

Ricky: Yeah, I mean this, this section of the book is in some ways extremely sharp and painful because it's talking about, there are essays about, for example, the daily experiences of people who do not have resources and they're not necessarily institutionally excluded, but because of their location and because of their lack of resources, they are excluded and have to fight in special ways in each case. For example, there's a fantastic essay about people who are in foster care, who are aging out of foster care and what kinds of resources to manage their bodies can they have access to. And you know, this essay and a different essay about adoption, you know, really give the lie to Amy Coney Barrett's famous assertion that if people get pregnant and they don't wanna have a baby, they can just leave their baby somewhere and that baby will get adopted or get into foster care as a bridge to adoption and everything will be fine. Well, the people who are writing these essays demonstrate that that is simply not true. There's an essay in here that I feel particularly attached to in this section. It's not really about services, it's about journalism and it's about how, certainly up to the point of the Dobbs decision, journalism was very weak on the arena of reproductive politics altogether. So, what does America know about this? I mean, we're tragically operating in the media system where people don't know about many, many important things. And you know, we see in the New York Times yesterday that it's not unlikely at all that we will have a very, very scary presidential election with possibly very scary outcomes. And this young journalist is writing about what it means to break through and to be a journalist dealing with the real reproductive politics issues. Of course, she's someone who works for a small outlet and we wanted to include that because it's such an important public education, which comes through the media so frequently and so desperately needed is a crucial topic. You know, Krystale did a wonderful interview with the director of a longstanding and very venerable abortion clinic in Iowa City, Iowa, that we put in this section because this woman has been combating anti-abortion forces for as long as she has been the director of this clinic where people have come to demonstrate, come to commit violence, come to commit misogyny and fierce anger against women having control over their own bodies. And not only has it been ongoing for decades, but now this valiant woman, this noble woman who's directed this service for so long is afflicted with the closing of her clinic. So, that's the texture of these pieces, they're kind of all over the map, but they're all about people who have been facing these attacks for as long as they've been committed. We need to know this. We need to know that it's not just the individual trying to make a decision which is best for themselves, but actually the landscape is so fraught, so endangered, so threatened.

Jennie: So, going back to your comment, talking about journalism and not covering a lot of these issues as much pre the loss of Roe, it makes me think of the section on criminalization and that so many people are hearing about criminalization now for the first time and think it's new, but criminalization has gone on for so much longer, quietly in the background, and it's just starting to get, I feel like more attention. And so, it was great to read those essays in that section talking about criminalization.

Krystale: So, I would just say that one of the things that I think was so important about the essays in this section and other essays in other sections in the book that deal with criminalization is really demonstrating not only how people are being criminalized and have been criminalized in the past, but also in demonstrating what people are doing to try and protect people that are being criminalized. And so, we have essays focusing on how people that are responsible for enforcing laws that criminalize abortion can try and demonstrate discretion in not enforcing them so that people that are trying to access abortion are not at the mercy of the court system. We have, this is actually in, in one of the previous sections, but a council member in Austin talks about how it was really important for their office to redirect resources so that they didn't have to direct their resources to criminalizing abortion. And so, even as they could not go against what the state said in terms of what was law, they could help prevent people from being criminalized by saying, by using the discretion that they had over their budgets to say that they were not going to put money into those efforts to criminalize people. And so, what we really see in the essays in this section is how, whether it is about the digital battle battleground when it comes to criminalization and surveillance whether it's about defense attorneys and the things that they can do to try and protect people accessing abortion, whether it's about doctors and how doctors and other healthcare providers can refuse to contribute to the criminalization of their patients. We see that across the board, there are things that everybody can do to prevent or at least try and limit the negative consequences on people's liberty and also in terms of being able to prevent them from being criminalized and having to face legal repercussions.

Ricky: I wanna add a little bit of sort of pre-Dobbs view on criminalization.

Jennie: Oh, great.

Ricky: To how we're thinking about criminalization. And one thing I think is really important is how criminalization was handled in the decades before Roe and how distinct that is from today. So, before Roe, it was kind of a well-known open secret in fact that in every city, in every town in the United States, there was someone doing criminal abortions, which were not okay by the law. But as long as there was someone who was doing them, who knew what they were doing day in and day out and did a good job, police district attorneys, other law enforcement people saw that as a public health asset because they understood that women needed to control their own bodies and that they were gonna do it, no matter what. So, they rarely arrested those people. They rarely went after the women who were getting abortions unless there was a bad actor practitioner or if someone had a very bad physical reaction. There's a lot of talk about back alley butchers in the bad old days. Actually, my research shows that whereas abortion was dangerous when women tried to abort themselves, which of course happened a lot when women didn't have resources or didn't know where to get them. And it also happened in a lot in places where there were no practitioners of this sort or people didn't know how to find them. But in many, many cases, women were left to pursue criminal abortion because everybody knew they were doing it and that they would do it no matter what. And their hope was in communities that there would be someone good to do it, which is actually a pointer for what's going to happen next. Although we don't know how the law will be both flouted and enforced, we don't really know that quite yet. But I want to also make the point that the studies that have been done by Lynn Paltrow and her gang about the criminalization of women who are pregnant because they are pregnant, and that's been going, there's been studies being done on that over about the past 30 years. Women who have miscarriages or women who have drugs in their system, criminalizations that are almost always pursued based on the race and the class of the woman who is being accused, being criminalized. And these prosecutions are very telling and give us...because in some ways they were rehearsals for what’s going to come in much larger numbers. Now we see this of course in the emergency rooms of hospitals and places in Texas cities where women come in whose lives are in danger and they're being sent away because the doctors are fearful. So, in some ways the motivations and the scenarios are slightly different, but the idea of not believing women, punishing women, considering a miscarriage to be an abortion, I mean this whole arena of criminalization over pregnancy and bodies, vulnerable people's bodies is very scary. And what we have to imagine will characterize time going forward now.

Jennie: I think another of the sections that really stuck with me, and I think partially it's, I was raised Catholic and so have a lot of that embedded in me was the religious tyranny section. And I loved hearing from the various voices of different faith traditions, which was wonderful. And then the one that, like, maybe it's just 'cause I read it yesterday, but, like, really stuck with me was Dr. Parrott's essay talking about conscious objections and encountering them in, in the operating room. And it just, I don't know, it really stuck with me hearing that story.

Ricky: Did you wonder why we didn't have a Catholic religious figure? Right. I said to Crystal, shouldn't we have a Catholic person writing in this? She said, no. She said, we know what, you know, it's just too explicitly the case. So I mean, of course there are plenty of Catholics like you. Yeah. I would someday, when I interview you, I will ask you to tell the story of how you transcended your training. But I really particularly respond to that section too. I'm not a religious person at all, but, and therefore, perhaps I am extremely offended by national law having religion at its heart, having a religious basis, self-consciously, very unashamedly. These people are putting religion at the center of national law and shaping the reproductive lives of everyone based on evangelical and Catholic religion. And I think what's really so helpful in that section that about religious tyranny is all these different religious practitioners, leaders talking about why their religion, whether it's various Protestant groups or Muslim or Jewish, are offended like I am, that they're being subjected to a particular strain of Christianity and told that they must live their sexual and reproductive lives according to that strain of Christianity. That's outrageous.

Jennie: Yeah. I very much, I think, you know, you say I was raised Catholic, not that I am anymore. Like you start to not see yourself and see all of your values not reflected. Like, I feel the same way. I think that's why I have such a strong feeling about this section and similar views of, like, what is going on here, man? Like you're letting religious beliefs affect people's access to healthcare that is unacceptable on any level. And yeah. Same.

Ricky: Was just, I was just having an imaginary vision of say a Jewish doctor in the operating room in Houston saying, oh my God, this woman is bleeding or, but you know, I can't say for sure she's gonna die, but I have to turn her away. This is against my religion to turn her away, but the religion of the governor is forcing me to turn her away. I mean, that's the dilemma we have to imagine.

Krystale: Yeah, I was just gonna add that I grew up in a religious tradition that did not, and I don't practice that religion anymore, but they didn't believe that people should be- that the religion itself should be involved in any government or political matters. And so, it's interesting kind of thinking about my own perspective and positionality as a person who's not religious today. But even as part of the religion that I grew up in, it wasn't seen, it wouldn't have been seen as appropriate for me to input my religious ideas into the political sphere one way or the other and into the legal sphere one way or the other. And so, it's interesting for me as, as a person who does this kind of work to have, you know, been raised and grown up in a context where I didn't believe that religion should play a role one way or the other. And to see the ways that people deploy religious ideas in this sphere is then as if religion itself is the basis by which they should be doing that is just fascinating coming from a tradition where it's the complete opposite. And the idea is that your religion should play absolutely no role whatsoever in the sphere. And so, it was very important for me from coming from that religious background to reflect on my own experience and positionality, and also to make sure that we had essays in the volume that made clear that people's ideas about religion and religious stances on abortion were in fact invalidating the religious beliefs and traditions of many, many, many people even as they tried to claim that they had a religious basis for doing so.

Jennie: So, as much as I loved the beginning of, like, starting with Roe was never enough, I also really love ending with the, like, re-envisioning the future. Like, I love having that bit of, like, looking forward and hope at the end, like it's so needed in this moment, but especially at the end of a heavy book, it is always so great to haveWho wants to tackle this section?

Krystale: I'm happy to dive in. So, one of the biggest things for me that may not necessarily be visible explicitly to people reading the book is the importance of ideas in this section. So, one of the things that some of the essays get at and one of the essays the very beginning of the book gets at is the way that this moment gives us an opportunity to envision a better future and to work toward a better future. And the essays in this section really underscore the different kinds of ideas that we have that need to change because of the ways that they're having very...and can have negative consequences for people on the ground, but also the ways that we can be thinking more imaginatively and robustly about reproductive justice into the future, to secure abortion rights and also to just secure freedom more generally. And so, you have one of the essays that I wrote that was originally published in the Washington Post in this section talking about how we have to stop pretending that contraception can ever be a substitute for abortion, right? So, really interrogating the idea that people don't need abortion as long as they have contraception and demonstrating how awfully wrong that is. And when you look at the numbers of people having abortions post-Dobbs, we can see right that abortion numbers were higher in 2023 than in 2022. And my research and the research of other people has shown that people who have abortions use contraception and people that use contraception have abortions. So, this notion that these are different populations of people and that you can just substitute one for the other is just wrong. And we need to interrogate that thinking along with thinking that abortion access is only a matter that people who can get pregnant should care about and should fight for. And so, having an essay in this section that really demonstrates how gender equity is an important part of this conversation and how people who can get other people pregnant need to be thinking about the importance of fighting for abortion access and care. And then last, I can go on and on as you all can might, as you might be able to imagine, I can go on and on about all of the essays in this book that just both shed light on people's experiences and also give us hope for the future and demonstrate how people are doing so much courageous work. But one of the essays in this section by Loretta Ross and and Robynne Lucas called "Reproductive Justice Futurism” demonstrates how we can think about where we have come from and how important it is to think about where we've come from, particularly thinking about the marginalization, exploitation and oppression of Black women and people who can get pregnant and making sure that all of the work that we do centers their experiences and fights for their right to reproductive justice and thinking about how we can imagine and continue to reimagine reproductive justice to tackle new frontiers. And so, one of the things to come out of this book for me was not just kind of a historical accounting of what was going on in the aftermath of the Dobbs decision, but also really a beautiful testament to the ways that people are thinking in new and creative ways about what our future could look like so that we don't just keep thinking about looking to the past and trying to reinstitute things from the past, but instead so that we can all be mindful of the opportunity that we have to create something that we have never seen before. And that can do even more to protect the right to reproductive justice that everybody has just by the nature of being a person.

Jennie: So, I always love ending my episodes with action items, like you ended with hope. I always love to end with: what can our audience do? How can they get involved in this moment? So, who wants to go first?

Ricky: Well, I would just say I haven't shaken hands with anybody in your audience, so I don't know who they are or what their own visions are, but I think there are a lot of people out there who want to be- I mean, there's a lot to be engaged with politically at this moment, and a lot of it links together and as we say is intersectional. So, if you care about reproductive dignity and the autonomy of a person over their own body, that has a lot, that's a very political issue these days. And who gets elected to the Senate and the House of Representatives and the presidency in November, we'll have a lot to do with being able to achieve those things coming up. It's very hard to sit on your couch and think about what can I do? And it's very hard to invent something. And in fact, I don't recommend anybody inventing anything because there's a lot of efforts out there that you can join and you can join, you know, I mean the easiest way for some people to join is to do something like give a couple of bucks to an abortion access fund because those are so necessary. And so, I think that that's one thing is to be a donor of any size at all, or to find out what kind of assistance people who are working on distributing pills or people who are working on helping people get to a clinic across the state border. Those are very, very important things. I mean, the more I think about it, the more worried I am about all the people who live between Florida and Virginia or North Carolina who can't get any service. Those people just need help getting what they need. And that just, and it's not something a person would have to invent the pathways for. There are people who are running these services who would just love to have a phone call from somebody saying, who can I drive part of the way from Florida through to the South Carolina border and somebody else will pick that person up or whatever. I mean, there's, and you know, there are many other ways that people can get involved. And that's one of the good things about this book too, is that if you read across the essays, you'll see the kinds of work that people are doing out there and begin to imagine the places that you can join in.

Krystale: I'd add to that and echoing some of what Ricky has said, that one of the things to come out of this for me in terms of thinking about what people can do is to recognize that people have various capacities and sometimes people can feel like they're at capacity and they don't know what else they can do and they may not feel like they have the energy to do anything else. And I think that one of the things that comes through in this book is the different ways that people are involved based in whatever their context is. And so, maybe it's just about having conversations with people where you share your knowledge when they're saying, when they're sharing information that is actually misinformation. And maybe that means people have to get a little bit more knowledgeable about some particular aspect of abortion access or, and or reproductive justice writ large. But one of the things that we see in this book is the different ways that people have been compelled to respond that as I mentioned that could be via information campaigns, right? There are people that have been inspired themselves to start information campaigns. People can get linked into those networks so that they can learn more about what information campaigns entail so that they themselves as I mentioned can share information. As Ricky was talking about the importance of making sure that if you have the resources, donating to abortion funds who are doing crucial work and, and need and need the money to continue to- and other resources to continue to support people that need abortion. And so, I think for me, the biggest thing to come out of this in thinking about how to be involved is to take stock of where a person's position is and to think about the ways that they can contribute in ways that make sense to them as a professor and Ricky and I, as scholars, writing this book and bringing together these contributors was our way of contributing. As a scholar-activist, I also give talks and I try and change people's minds. And so, they can be a campaign that an individual person can have of, of trying to change the hearts of people that they know that, that don't understand abortion or don't understand the importance of abortion. And so, I think there are different ways to be involved. And what I would kind of hope that people take to heart is that everybody has their own way to be involved and that people feel empowered to be involved in the ways that make sense for them and the ways that they have the capacity for, and if reading this book, to take stock of the different ways that people are getting involved to hopefully be inspired to join in way or to expand their activities in ways that make sense to them given their location and their capacity.

Jennie: Well, Ricky, Krystale, thank you so much for being here, both of you. I really enjoyed our conversation.

Krystale: Absolutely. Thank you so much for having us, Jennie. It was great talking.

Ricky: I did too. And actually this is a moment of activism, right?

Jennie: Yes. Okay. Y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Krystale and Ricky. I had so much fun talking to them. Like I said, I really enjoyed reading their book and they were both just a delight to talk to. And I think with that, I will just see y'all next week. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!