In the Year Post-Dobbs, Anti-Abortion Violence Has Increased

One year after the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization case that served as the platform for Roe v. Wade’s overturning, 15 states have now banned all or most abortions. Garnet Henderson, Senior Multiplatform Reporter for Rewire News Group and host and producer of ACCESS: A Podcast About Abortion, sits down to talk with us about the country-wide need for abortion care and violence against providers and clinics, all of which has increased since last June.

The 15 states that have banned all or most abortions are the bans that are currently in effect, with others likely to go into effect in the coming year. For people in the South and Midwest, where it was already more difficult to get an abortion, access to abortion care requires driving hundreds of miles or taking a flight. With abortion access curtailed, maternal mortality will rise--especially for Black mothers, who are in the midst of a maternal mortality crisis caused by racism in the U.S. health system.

Since Roe’s overturning, there has been a marked increase in assault, battery, stalking, bomb threats, bioterrorism threats, clinic invasions, and obstruction. Responses from law enforcement continues to be insufficient.

The focus must be on pregnant people currently navigating a near impossible situation. Mis- and dis-information being spread by anti-abortion groups, violence against clinics and providers, and silence from major medical is only making it worse.

Links from this episode

Garnet Henderson on Twitter
Garnet Henderson for Rewire News Group
ACCESS: A Podcast About Abortion
Video Reveals Anti-Abortion Groups Expected ‘Dobbs’ Backlash That Never Came
Anti-Abortion and Fascist Violence Are One and the Same. Clinics Are Paying the Price.

Take Action

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to RePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health rights and justice.

Read More

Jennie: Hi RePROs, how's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So yeah, while you are listening to this, I am away at a conference for the first time since before the pandemic. Y'all, I am so excited. I'm going to get to see a bunch of my Repro health friends and get to catch up, and there are so many of them that I have not seen since before the pandemic. I am just so excited to finally see them in person. And yeah, I'm just so excited to connect with them. We'll also have a booth to talk about RePROs Fight Back and y'all, there is nothing I love more than getting to introduce new people to the podcast to talk about sexual reproductive health rights and justice. And then to see all of my Repro friends, what more could I ask for? It just sounds like a great time. So yeah, I am really looking forward to this conference. I, yeah, I cannot wait to see everybody. I, yeah, I'll tell you about it when I get back, but I can't wait to introduce people to the podcast, meet some people who I'm sure are already listening, and maybe get some good ideas for new episodes we should do in the future. So much fun.

Jennie: Um, the next thing is happy Pride, y’all. Uh, there is so much happening right now. There have been so many attacks around, uh, LGBTQ rights that it feels kind of grim right now, but I think it's really important that we take some time and celebrate — join the community. And Pride is a great opportunity to do that. And you know, it doesn't mean that the fight stops, right? We'll keep fighting and, and yeah, just like taking a break to experience joy with your community, it's, it's a long fight. It's gonna be a long fight. It has been a long fight, right? It is definitely a marathon, not a sprint. And it is so important to take those opportunities to recharge and rejuvenate so that you can keep fighting. And I think Pride gives a great opportunity to do that. So, I hope everybody gets a chance to, to do some of that this month and prepare for the fights up to, um, prepare for the fights up ahead. Um, also just to note, we'll have a special bonus episode next week talking about the new anti LGBTQ Law in Uganda. Um, it's, I mean, talk about bleak, y'all, it's really bad. Uh, but we have a great conversation about it for y'all next week.

Jennie: But this week, first, I talked to the wonderful Garnet Henderson with Rewire News Group and also the host of the wonderful podcast Access the Abortion podcast. Definitely check it out. It is wonderful. Definitely worth a listen. Um, so I have her on to talk about, it's been one-year post-Dobbs and just kinda look at where we're at, um, especially in terms of there's been a huge increase in violence. So, we talk a little bit about that and what we are seeing. But definitely make sure you check out her podcast as well — Access, the podcast about abortion. Okay, y'all, with that, let's go to my interview with Garnet.

Jennie: Hi Garnet. Thank you so much for being here today.

Garnet: Hi. Thank you for having me.

Jennie: I'm so excited. I feel like it's been a little while since we've talked.

Garnet: Yeah, it has been. I think it was probably last year at this point. My sense of time is all screwed up now, so I don't know. (laughs)

Jennie: But before we get started, let's do quick introductions. You wanna introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Garnet: Sure. My name is Garnet Henderson. My pronouns are she/her. I am the senior multi-platform reporter at Rewire News Group, which is the only national publication that's entirely dedicated to reproductive and sexual health rights and justice news. Prior to joining this staff at Rewire, I was a freelance journalist for about a decade reporting on all those same issues. And I'm also the host and producer of Access, a podcast about abortion.

Jennie: And you should check out Garnet in all the things. Her podcast is amazing, but also so is her reporting. So, make sure that y'all are following her in all the places.

Garnet: Thank you.

Jennie: Um, and we'll have links obviously in the show notes so you can, like, click through and get all the things. So, we're like one year, almost one year post-Dobbs, which somehow feels longer ago and like how has it been a year at the same time?

Garnet: I agree.

Jennie: Like what are we seeing right now?

Garnet: Yeah, I mean, we're now seeing 15 states have banned all or most abortions. Those are bans that are currently in effect. There are others that are likely to go into effect now in the coming year. So most of the predictions about which states were certain or likely to ban abortion are coming true. And so that means that people, especially in the South and the Midwest, which were the regions of the country where it was already hardest to get an abortion. Uh, now huge numbers of people from those states have had to either travel to seek abortion care or they just haven't been able to get abortions. There's one estimate from the Society of Family Planning where they looked at the decline in the abortion rate in states that have banned abortion, which, so basically those states declined to zero abortions, and then the increase in the abortion rate in states where abortion is still legal to estimate the number of people who seem to have been able to travel to get care. But that leaves over 32,000 people. Um, that's just a projection, but over 32,000 abortions that didn't happen basically. So that gives us an idea of how many people have not been able to get legal abortions, I should say. We don't know. And we'll never know probably how many people were able to self-manage their abortions by getting pills online or from a friend. And certainly, we can hope that many of those people were able to, but we know undoubtedly that many people simply were forced to carry pregnancies to term—are being forced every day to carry pregnancies to term when they didn't want to. Um, and so, you know, now we are expecting that there will be at least some increase in the birth rate in those states. And then that also means that because being pregnant is inherently dangerous in America, especially if you're a person of color, especially especially if you are Black, um, that we're gonna see an increase in the rate of pregnancy related death, not because of unsafe abortions, which is what a lot of people tend to think, but just because of complications from pregnancy and childbirth.

Jennie: There are just, like, so many things, like, going through my head, like, at the same time. Like, the people who are able to travel are, like, gonna be most likely the ones who can afford it.

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And like, would be the people who'd have better access to better maternal healthcare. Like-

Garnet: Yes.

Jennie: You just can see all of the ways that there's just, like, gonna be cascading impacts on the people who are already the most marginalized.

Garnet: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I'm working on an episode of Access right now to commemorate the one-year anniversary of the Dobbs decision. And I asked people to send me voice memos, people who work or volunteer in abortion care or people who had abortions this year. And what I heard from the people who are involved in abortion funding, uh, is that, you know, typically per person, they're giving out thousands of dollars now, you know, where abortion funds used to disperse maybe a few hundred dollars a person, now they need thousands of dollars just to help one person get an abortion because of all of those travel costs.

Jennie: And you just see the distances getting further, right?

Garnet: Yes.

Jennie: As more states are banning it, especially in the South, like-

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: You just have so much further that people are gonna have to go. And that means days off, that means childcare and-

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: It, it's just, I don't know, it's so frustrating and, and thinking like, okay, so you think of that part and then you think of, like, the turn away study and, like, the impacts you saw from, like, not being able to get a wanted abortion and like-

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: It shows that it will further exacerbate a lot of those things. Whether it's more inclined to stay with a violent partner-

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Or economic impacts or health. Like, there are just so many things that are gonna have all these big implications that people are not taking into account.

Garnet: Absolutely. I think it's so important. You know, I think a lot of people don't think about what the day-to-day reality would be like to be someone who's pregnant and didn't wanna be and then is forced to continue that pregnancy. I think that that is torture. Um, it's a really horrifying thing to even think about. And obviously that doesn't even do justice to the actual experience. And so, I think it's really important to keep that front of mind as difficult as it is to confront that. I think those of us who are in more privileged positions have a responsibility to really keep that reality, you know, at top of mind.

Jennie: And then the other thing I was thinking of obviously as you were talking is like abortion funds were already stretched so thin-

Garnet: Yeah.

Jennie: -when they were only giving a couple hundred per patient and now, we're talking thousands. Like that's just not sustainable.

Garnet: No, I mean, especially in places like Washington D.C. and New York where a lot of people are traveling for care, especially for care later in pregnancy, which is already more expensive. Uh, and now there are more of those people because needing to travel for care is something that's gonna delay you and often delay you and delay you and then delay you again. And so, yeah, I mean, abortion funds, uh, the D.C. abortion fund, the New York Abortion Access Fund, their budgets, the amounts of money they need per year now are in the millions of dollars, they need to raise millions of dollars every year. That is a huge undertaking. And so I know a lot of abortion funds are trying to make their work as sustainable as they can in part by hiring staff, because historically some abortion funds have had staff, but most of them have been, if not entirely volunteer efforts, mostly volunteer efforts. And so I think that's really important that they're trying to figure out how they can keep the work going. But yeah, inevitably there are people who are gonna be falling through the cracks because the need is just too great.

Jennie: And one way that you could help if you are able, you know, we always talk about the importance of donating to abortion funds, but if you are able to be a monthly donor-

Garnet: Yes.

Jennie: Like give a smaller amount, but give it monthly, then they know they're gonna have that money every month. It makes a huge difference.

Garnet: Exactly. It's so important.

Jennie: Um, yeah. Okay, so, there's another thing that we've seen and I think, you know, we saw like a big reporting on it when the National Abortion Federation report came out, but like you don't hear it as consistently, and that's been this increase in violence we're seeing. Can you tell us a little bit about that?

Garnet: Absolutely. Yeah. I have a piece coming out this week. It's part of a big content drop now at Rewire we're doing, um, quarterly content drops that we think of like a digital magazine. And so, it's a bunch of articles kind of on top of just our ongoing coverage, a bunch of articles that are all organized around a particular theme. Uh, and so the theme for this drop commemorating the one-year anniversary of the Dobbs decision is “Dobbs and democracy.” Looking at how the end of the federal right to abortion, the constitutional right to abortion, is affecting our democracy. And so I wanted to look at anti-abortion violence in particular because we know that anti-abortion violence and fascist political violence really are one and the same. Uh, lots of abortion providers tell a very similar story, which is that on January 6th, 2021, it was eerily quiet outside their clinics and they couldn't figure out why those people who are normally out there screaming at the patients were not there that day. And of course, later when news of the insurrection broke and they turned on the TV coverage, they started to spot their regular protestors, right? Anti-abortion groups have really long-standing ties to white supremacy and Christian nationalism, and many really prominent anti-abortion leaders and just kind of, you know, everyday anti-abortion protestors were very much involved in the insurrection. And so when I spoke to providers before Roe fell, but when we all kind of knew that that's probably what was gonna happen, a lot of them expressed a concern that as patients travel from ban states to legal states, anti-abortion protestors and the violence that they perpetrate would probably follow those patients. And so that's really what the NAF report showed because there was a decrease actually in some of the types of violence that they track nationwide, which they attribute—and this makes sense—just to the fact that so many clinics closed. Of course, you're gonna have fewer numbers of incidents if you have fewer clinics, right? But in states where abortion is legal, there was a significant increase in violence. So not just in picketing and protesting, but in assault and battery, there was a huge increase in stalking, which is really alarming. Like also huge. Huge. Yeah. I have a 913% increase in stalking, um, which is terrifying. Also, really large increases in bomb threats, um, and obstruction. So people blocking the sort of normal activities of clinics, patients coming and going, uh, and staff coming and going. And there were also four anthrax or other bioterrorism threats, which is actually something that hasn't really happened since the nineties. Um, so in many ways it seems that kind of nineties era, more militant, more extreme anti-abortion activism is coming back. And that's not actually new. That's been happening for a while. We've seen a rise in blockades, although we haven't seen anything like what used to happen in the nineties where thousands of people would show up to blockade a clinic. Um, and then of course we have the Red Rose rescues or the clinic invasions.

Garnet: So, the number of clinic invasions where protesters actually breach the clinic, come inside to harass patients and staff has dramatically increased and really remained at a high level over the last few years. And what's especially scary is that in many ways the insurrection was like the kind of typical scene that plays out at abortion clinics so often, just on a much larger scale. And I think what we saw there is it's easy to kind of laugh at the sort of buffoons who participated in the insurrection and anti-abortion protestors are the same. Some of them honestly are just silly, which doesn't make what they're doing okay. Right. But they're easy to laugh at. And then others are really dangerous and really violent. And just like we saw with the insurrection where it turned out, a lot of people showed up with weapons that day, right. And if they had seen members of Congress that they wanted to target, they might have killed someone. And we know that the same is true when it comes to anti-abortion violence because 11 people have been killed by anti-abortion extremists since the seventies, and many more people injured. And you know, I've spoken to so many providers who see people showing up at their clinics, um, with guns, you know, visible, visibly carrying guns. And so, I think there's always a concern there that as the tactics get more aggressive, and especially as people start to invade clinics and actually get inside more frequently, that there could be, you know, another shooting, uh, like in 2016, which is the last time that that happened.

Jennie: Again, myriad of thoughts like flying through my head of like thinking of the clinic staff and like-

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: -just my heart going out to them and like having to deal with that every day. But then also thinking of this patient that we've just talked about, had to get through all of these obstacles to get to that clinic, and probably was delayed if they had to travel, and all of these things only to then be faced with this big harassment campaign. Maybe the people getting into the clinic. Like again, just horrifying, thinking through all of these things that people have to go through to access basic healthcare—sorry, has to go through—feels so wrong. They are going through, right? Like-

Garnet: Yeah.

Jennie: -this shouldn't be happening. This doesn't have to be happening, but like, this is what is happening.

Garnet: Yeah. It's so scary. And it really, I think, again, it's kind of easy to detach from those stories. But, um, you know, there's a clinic in, well, Northland Family Planning has three clinics in Michigan. One of their clinics experienced a blockade in 2020. Between their clinics, they've also experienced multiple invasions, uh, but the invasion in 2020, I've interviewed Lara Chelian, uh, who runs those clinics, several times about it and the police in that situation—because that's another thing, is that the responses from law enforcement are often insufficient to put it really mildly—and in that situation, the police were there and on the scene and they let the protestors block all the entrances and exits to the clinic for over an hour before they started making arrests. And so, again, I just think it's really important to understand just how scary that is, because it's not just that there are people yelling at you—which is scary enough, by the way—I think if you haven't experienced that, you don't really know how terrifying it can be. But you know, there were protestors who would, like, run around to block different doors of the clinic if they saw people trying to go in or out through a different exit. And then they were approaching cars that patients had shut themselves into in the parking lot and knocking on the window and harassing those patients. So, there was no escape from them. And again, if you don't know whether someone might have a gun or a bomb, it's not, you can't relax and tell yourself it's, it'll all blow over when you're trapped inside a clinic and you don't know what these people are actually willing to do. You know, it's really scary and the fact that people have to go to work and know that that could happen every day, and then the people who are just trying to seek healthcare and have to know that that could happen or maybe didn't know that that could happen and then just experience it anyway. Um, it's really awful and it's really unacceptable.

Jennie: I feel like we already started to like, pick this apart a little bit, but like, what's behind this like, surge of violence, right? It feels like it, I mean, again, it really has ramped up. Is it like, I like to think like the last gasp of like, they're losing, but like, it doesn't feel that way at the moment.

Garnet: Yeah. Especially because they haven't lost, right?

Jennie: Yeah.

Garnet: They've won, they got Roe overturned. Um, and so I really think it just shows that anti-abortion groups mean it when they say they wanna end abortion, and they are willing to do that by any means necessary, right? So, no matter what they might claim about being, you know, open to compromise or not wanting to ban all abortions, they're lying because their rhetoric is whipping their followers up into this frenzy where they're willing to do really extreme and violent things. And so, what we've seen happen just time and time again with the violence, is that the big powerful anti-abortion groups will always denounce the violence when it happens, right? And say like, the assassination of Dr. George Tiller is a great example of that, where we know that the man who killed him was in touch with Operation Rescue, very big prominent anti-abortion group. But of course, after the shooting, Operation Rescue said, you know, we don't condone this, we didn't want this to happen, except it was their rhetoric that made this man believe that killing an abortion provider was not only an acceptable thing to do, but a good thing to do because they framed him as this awful murderer, right? And so, I think we're gonna see that happening time and again where the big powerful groups get to kind of keep their hands clean and say, well, we didn't ask anybody to do that. But of course, they are inciting that violence and there's always somebody out there, you know, again, it's a direct parallel with the insurrection where Donald Trump will say, well, I didn't ask them to do that, but yes, he did. You know, and, and so I think there's always somebody out there who's gonna be willing to take it to an extreme if their leaders are engaging in that really inflammatory type of rhetoric.

Jennie: This just ties to an episode y'all haven't heard yet, but I have already recorded where we're talking about what is happening in Uganda and talking about the US-based, uh, evangelical groups that are involved in pushing that, the, that law over there. And, but then also being like, no, no, no, we, we did not say that they, there should be a death penalty for-

Garnet: Right.

Jennie: -that. No, this is good, this goes, we do not condone this law. And I just, ooh, it's given me flashbacks since I just had that conversation like two days ago.

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Okay. So, I think we should also talk about, you also released a piece on the day we're talking-

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: -um, about some leaked audio. Do you wanna tell us a little bit about that? ‘Cause it feels very related.

Garnet: It very much is. So, there's a group called the American College of Pediatricians, which a lot of people might not have heard of. Uh, but if you have, you probably know them primarily as an anti-gay and anti-trans group. And they certainly are. Um, they endorse conversion therapy. They, of course, oppose gender affirming care and they're also anti-abortion. And so, they are a plaintiff in the lawsuit that is seeking to remove Mifepristone from the market. They're one of the physician groups that's represented by the conservative legal firm, the alliance funding freedom in that lawsuit. So, if you're doing things like that, you would think that perhaps you would want to really secure your files and they did not. So, it turns out that they left an entire unsecured Google Drive accessible, fully accessible to the public on an old version of their website. And somebody who encountered that document leak sent us at Rewire a video that's one of the files that was in the drive, which is a recording of a Zoom meeting that took place. So ACPeds has characterized this as a cyber-attack, but again, I wanna emphasize that these were public files. Uh, there was no cyber-attacking involved in obtaining them. So, this is a recording of a Zoom meeting that happened in March of 2022. So just to situate us in time, that's after oral arguments happened in Dobbs. But it's about two months before Alito’s opinion in Dobbs leaked. So we hadn't had that leak yet, but pretty much everybody who was closely observing the situation was pretty sure that Roe was gonna get overturned, right? There was a possibility that maybe if, as we now know John Roberts wanted, uh, they might do like a 15 week quote-unquote compromise, although that is not a compromise, but that's subject for a different episode. Um, so everybody kind of knew that Roe was about to get overturned.

Garnet: And so, in this meeting, Sue Swayze Liebel, who is the director of state affairs for Susan B. Anthony List, right? One of those very large powerful, well-funded anti-abortion groups, she is talking to the members of the ACPeds Pro-Life Council explaining the Dobbs case, all of its potential outcomes, and essentially sharing with them a crisis communications guide, a document that SBA List generated that, uh, you can see we linked to it in the piece. It had been previously exposed actually by the Center for Media and Democracy, a document designed to help these doctors answer quote-unquote tough questions, um, about their support for making abortion illegal. And so, it's just really interesting to watch this meeting because, as I said, this is the anti-abortion movement's greatest win. They overturned Roe vs. Wade. They eliminated a constitutional right to abortion, but they're talking about it like a disaster. So, it's an interesting admission that they were in fact aware that the overturn of Roe would cause a human rights crisis. But the reason they were worried about that is they were worried about their image, and they were worried about the tough questions that they were gonna face. And I think the most interesting thing really is that they expected a much bigger backlash, uh, than in my opinion, ever came for them. Because certainly we see from mainstream media outlets a lot of reporting on the horrific consequences of abortion bans, especially people who, you know, are experiencing emergencies and can't get the abortions that they need to save their lives. But still, most of the time you see anti-abortion groups quoted opposite actual experts, right? Like doctors and researchers. They're still getting that airtime. Um-

Jennie: Gotta be fair and balanced.

Garnet: Exactly. So, I really don't think we've seen a media backlash against these leaders of the Anti-abortion movement, and that's what they were expecting and, and really preparing for. There is also an acknowledgement that more pregnant people is going to require more social services. Um, and Sue Liebel talks a lot about how difficult that's gonna be for the conservative movement to accept, you know, so, so tough to help people. But of course, she does make sure to say that not all women who get pregnant who have unplanned pregnancies are poor. Some of them are just college girls who don't wanna be pregnant, is what she says. Um, lot, you know, so lots of respect on display for people that they're talking about. Jennie: I just, it makes me think of, oh God, I can't, I'm gonna totally blank on the air. Maybe 2010 or what, long, long time ago when Texas cut out all of their family planning funding,

Garnet: Right.

Jennie: And then saw, oh, there's all these pregnant people now that we have to pay for. That was bad. Um, this might have been a bad decision. They decided that they needed to start funding their family planning program, again. There were lots of caveats around that, but like-

Garnet: Yes.

Jennie: Yeah.

Garnet: Yeah. And also, important to note that one of the main things that she's encouraging these doctors to do is really get involved with their local crisis pregnancy centers. So, she really is trying to avoid advocating for more government spending to help people. She's telling these doctors to get involved with their CPCs and other local Catholic charities. And part of what I find interesting about the conversation as well is there are some admissions from some of the doctors who are present that not all CPCs operate in a way that's entirely above board. So, one of the doctors, Robin Pierucci, who is a neonatologist, she's involved with a lot of anti-abortion groups. She actually wrote two separate amicus briefs in Dobbs. One to support the Supreme Court taking the case in the first place.

Jennie: Mm-hmm.

Garnet: And then another one in, in support of, you know, overturning Roe once they did take the case. And uh, she actually says, you know, we should encourage our members to go check out their local pregnancy centers. ‘Cause of course that's what they say, right? Pregnancy centers.

Jennie: Yeah.

Garnet: And see if it's really a place that they could recommend and feel confident sending people to. And it's like, wow, that's so interesting, so you admit that not all of them are places that you, as a doctor, could recommend.

Jennie: Just wild.

Garnet: Mm-hmm. Yes. And they are all pediatricians. So, the last thing I'll say is that there is also an acknowledgement, uh, from Jill Simons, who's the current ACPeds executive director now, she was an interim executive director at the time of the meeting. Um, that, you know, they need to make it clear that they wanna care for children, including the pregnant people themselves, because those may also be children. Uh, which is also just like bone-chilling to me.

Jennie: I mean, I guess, kind of them to acknowledge the pregnant person as a person with agency, like, that you should actually care for?

Garnet: I guess, except it's not- it's a very sort of matter of fact.

Jennie: Yeah.

Garnet: You know that who, who might also be a child herself. It's like you, you don't hear what's wrong with that? Okay.

Jennie: Okay. Just so much like, yeah. Okay. So, this is all just giving this the view of like, there's just like a really hostile atmosphere right now-

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: -with the violence and you know, even in some of the stuff that was said in this leaked video talking about, it opens with a quote being like, we thought Planned Parenthood was the enemy, but actually it's like modern medicine. I'm like, wait a minute. That is wild.

Garnet: I know.

Jennie: So, hostile atmosphere.

Garnet: Very.

Jennie: What needs to happen to, like, calm this shit down, man? Like it, it needs- it needs to be, like, brought down, like, 20 levels.

Garnet: Yeah. You know, it's true that it's Sue Liebel who says that in the video, she's clear that it's not an official SBA List position, but that it's her personal position that she feels it's the modern medical establishment that she's fighting every day. Um, and something that we hear a lot in that meeting is the idea that doctors are forced to participate in abortion care when they don't want to, which is one of the central arguments that they're using in the lawsuit to try and remove Mife from the market. So, it's very interesting ‘cause this meeting happened about eight months before that lawsuit was filed and it's totally a preview of the very same arguments that are made in the lawsuit. So, we see that the wheels were already really turning there on that one. And yeah, so I think partly speaking of the modern medical establishment, they have to really stand up. You know, I think of course we have groups like ACOG especially, um, and the AMA to an extent, although I have a lot of criticisms for the AMA and the director of the AMA and I got into sort of a spat on Twitter, um. (chuckles) So, they have kind of come out in support of access to abortion, but I think they need to be throwing their entire organizational weight behind that. And so do hospitals. You know, part of the problem right now is that hospitals are trying to avoid liability and their legal departments have interpreted uh, abortion bans in the most conservative possible way. And instead, what they need to be doing is telling doctors, we've got your back. You do what you need to do to take care of your patients and we are gonna defend you. Right? We are gonna pay all of your legal fees if you get sued, if you get arrested, whatever. That's what doctors need to be hearing so they can stand up and provide the care that patients need. And they really need to stand up against these fringe physician groups who are trying to argue against science and the actual principles of medicine. They need to come out against that really strongly. A question I love to ponder, because one of the other groups that's involved in the Mife lawsuit is the American Association of Pro-Life OBGYNs, and I have reported stories in the past where I've just heard horrible things about doctors who are members of that organization and the ways that they have totally failed to care for their pregnant patients. And so my question is, well why do these people still get to be ACOG members? Because they all are. Why isn't, at the very least, ACOG kicking people who would rather let patients die than give them abortions out? And this is, I'm talking about before Roe fell right before anybody was worried about getting put in jail. I'm talking about people who just think it's better to die, let a patient die than give someone an abortion. Why do they get to be members of ACOG? Why do they get to be members of the AMA? So, I know that that doesn't fully answer your questions ‘cause it probably wouldn't turn the- turn the dial down. Right? But I do think when it comes to those really powerful medical organizations, they really need to stand up as does the federal government, the Biden administration has made a lot of good statements. I would really like to see them—and we're starting to see this a bit—I would really like to see them go after states and hospitals that are violating federal law by not caring for pregnant people in those emergency situations.

Garnet: And then on more of a social level, I think that part of what needs to happen to kind of turn the intensity down on all of this is again, to turn the focus back to the pregnant people who need abortions and are either unable to get that care or just going through an immense struggle to get that care because they are what's important. They're the people who are really affected by this. And there is so much dis- and misinformation out there being spread by anti-abortion groups. I think it's really important to understand what's actually happening and to listen to pregnant people when they tell us about their experiences. In terms of what people can do individually, I always encourage people to really get plugged in with their local abortion fund as a great starting point. Don't call their hotline. That's for the people who need help from them. Don't do that but follow them on social media. Abortion funds usually know all the minute-to-minute stuff about what's going on in your community, and they'll put out calls for help when they need it. So, see how you can get involved. Um, you know, donating is a great and probably the most important way, but periodically abortion funds are gonna put out a call for, you know, they need more hotline volunteers, or they need people willing to drive patients places. So, you know, I think that's what's important is to really put the focus on people who need abortions, put the focus on helping them and on spreading true and correct information about abortion and the effects of abortion bans and making sure that the kind of hysterical disinformation that comes from anti-abortion groups is not what's dominating our public conversation.

Jennie: That just feels so important. I- there's just so, so much disinformation,-

Garnet: Yes.

Jennie: -misinformation just like everywhere and it's really important to find strategic ways to combat it. Um, we really had, again, in the conversation you'll hear us talk about with, for, with Uganda, like talking about this is really a tool of the anti-gender movement is getting-

Garnet: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: -so much disinformation out there.

Garnet: Yes. Jennie: Um, and, and we really need to be vigilant in the ways that they are working together to spread it in ways-

Garnet: Absolutely.

Jennie: -that we're not in the same way.

Garnet: Absolutely. I mean, again, it's like when we're talking about efforts to ban abortion and efforts to ban gender affirming care, or frankly at this point simply ban transgender people from existing, uh, the Venn diagram is a circle, right? It's all the same people, including this organization, ACPeds. It's all the same people who are pushing these policies and they're very organized. They're very coordinated. Although I will, I will say in the case of ACPeds, they're clearly, um, not as organized as some others considering that they left their entire Google Drive exposed to the public.

Jennie: Yes. Clicking on a link is not hacking.

Garnet: No. I don't know how to hack. Um, so if I saw it, it wasn't a hack. It's public. (chuckles)

Jennie: Well, Garnet, thank you so much for doing this. I really appreciate talking to you. Um, yeah, thank you.

Garnet: Thanks so much for having me. It's always great to be here.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Garnet. Like I said, it was really important that we talk about this huge upswing in violence that we're seeing. Um, it's just, uh, things just keep feeling more terrible. But I am rejuvenated by all of the amazing work that is being done on the ground and all of the amazing reproductive justice advocates who are doing so much to ensure that people are able to access abortion care. So even though it feels bleak, there is so much hope all around. Um, with that, I will see you all next week for our special bonus episode talking about what is happening in Uganda. If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com, or you can find us on social media. We're @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @RePROsFB on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all.