From Texas to Mississippi: Roe is in Trouble at SCOTUS

On Monday, November 1st, 2021, the Supreme Court heard arguments on Texas’s extreme and dangerous abortion ban, SB8. Ianthe Metzger, Director of State Media Campaigns with the Planned Parenthood Federation of America, sits down to talk with us about abortion access in Texas, the Texas SCOTUS case, and the upcoming Mississippi case in December that could threaten the very foundation of Roe v. Wade.

 Currently, in Texas, the state has continued to maintain its six-week abortion ban, SB8. The law is particularly unique in that it allows anyone to be able to sue those who assist in the provision or accessing of abortion care. To learn more in depth about Texas’s law, find rePROs Fight Back’s podcast episode here. The U.S. Department of Justice has brought the case to the Supreme Court, which will have, at the airing of this podcast episode, been heard on Monday, November 1st, 2021. During the hearings, the Court will be considering whether the federal government has the right to sue to block a state’s enforcement of such a law. Additionally, the Court will be assessing the specifics of the enforcement structure in a case brought by abortion providers.

On December 1st, 2021, the Supreme Court will be hearing Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization. The law will be brought in front of the Court by the Center for Reproductive Rights in an effort to challenge Mississippi’s fifteen-week abortion ban that is currently blocked from going into effect. The state of Mississippi has explicitly asked the Supreme Court to overturn Roe v. Wade, the 1973 decision guaranteeing the constitutional right to abortion. Allowing this law to go into effect would overturn the core holding of Roe and will no doubt open the floodgates to allow similar states to pass restrictive abortion legislation. In fact, 26 states are currently poised to ban abortion if Roe is overturned, possibly affecting 36 million women, trans men, and nonbinary folk’s access to abortion care.

If Roe v. Wade were to be overturned, patients in those 26 states will face decreased or nonexistent access to abortion care, be forced to travel hundreds of miles to visit an abortion provider, and place additional strain on the abortion clinics in states that will see an increase in out-of-state patient visits. It would also place an enormous, additional emotional weight on the staff of reproductive health clinics.

It’s important to remember that Roe v. Wade is the floor, not the ceiling. Abortion access is, for so may around the country, a right on paper only. That being said, Roe is an important safeguard for abortion’s constitutionality and continued access. The Women’s Health Protection Act (WHPA) would secure abortion access across the U.S. and protect against laws like Texas’s SB8-- and it has already passed the House of Representatives. With passage of legislation like WHPA, abortion care will be better safeguarded in the U.S.

Links from this episode

Planned Parenthood Federation of America on Twitter
Planned Parenthood Federation of America on Facebook
Guttmacher Institute: If Roe v. Wade Is Overturned: New Interactive Map Shows How Far People Seeking Abortion in the 26 States Certain or Likely to Ban the Procedure Will Need to Travel to Get the Care They Need
Women’s Health Protection Act information

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Welcome to this week's episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, just a little bit of light housekeeping before we get started. It's been a while since we've done this. If you love our podcast, please make sure to subscribe, rate and review wherever you listen to your podcasts, it helps people find our podcast. And we want to make sure that as many people as possible are learning about all of these important issues around sexual and reproductive, health, rights, and justice. Also, if you're not already following us on social media, make sure to find us we're at rePROs Fight Back on Facebook and Twitter and reprosfb on Instagram. Let's see… nothing super exciting has been going on right now. I am enjoying the cooler weather. I've been able to have my windows open off and on, which is delightful. The kitties are never happier than when the windows are open, but does it also meant for them at least that it is snuggle weather, which, you know, I enjoy; they sleep in bed with me and you know, it it's delightful when they want to snuggle, but one of them likes to use my foot as a pillow during the night. And so often I'll wake up in the morning and be like, oh God, why does my ankle hurt so much? And just because she like sleeps on my foot and yeah, every night and it's a little annoying, but as I always say, they are lucky they're cute because they can get away with it. Let's see, the turning in the weather has also meant that I'm ready to maybe do some more serious baking again. I mean, I always kind of tried to do some, but I haven't been wanting to do as much recently. So, we'll see. I'm hoping to maybe get a little more ambitious here soon, but it is also meant that it's, you know, cool weather like… maybe casserole time. So I made lasagna last weekend and it was delightful and made me so happy and I will definitely be making more of it in the future. But I think it also just means that I'm ready for like casserole weather and soups and all of those fall/winter things, it's that time. And, uh, yeah, I'm ready for it. Nothing else. Super exciting going on around here. I want to keep the intro light. So like, there are like a bunch of serious issues we could talk about, but because we are talking about abortion at the Supreme Court, it feels like maybe we should try to just be light and breezy before we dig into the like heavy topics. So, the other really late exciting thing is it is, it was Halloween this last weekend, right? So that means like all the pictures of like the little kids and pets and costumes are just the like timeline cleanse and the refresher we all need right now. I shoved my cats in their Halloween costumes. I have A lion’s mane-- I usually make one of them put on at least long enough for pictures because they hate it. And then another one, that's a caterpillar costume, uh, which, uh, they also hate, you know, cats, costumes. It's not... they don't love them, but you know, I can make them suffer to take a quick picture. We'll try and share them.

Jennie: With that, I think we'll turn to this week's interview. And like I said, it's talking about abortion at the Supreme Court. We expected to have, you know, years to deal with the Mississippi case and think about what the end of Roe might mean. And then Texas came all in and said, “Hey, let's do something extra wild.” And they're… basically, Roe does not exist in Texas right now. So people are not able to access abortion care. And that has been devastating to so many people in Texas who have had to travel out of state who have not been able to travel out of state. Like there's just not a full range of options for people. And, um, it's, it's just devastating. Right? So we're going to talk about both. We recorded this episode at the Thursday before it comes out. So we actually recorded it before arguments in front of the Supreme Court. I don't think it's gonna make a huge difference in what we say, but I just want to flag for you that we did record this before arguments, even though this is coming out the day after. So, helping me dig through all of this abortion at SCOTUS and what is going to mean for people I am super excited to have with me Ianthe Metzger with Planned Parenthood Federation of America, we talk about all things Texas, abortion, and what we can do to fight back. So with that, I'm going to take you to my interview with Ianthe.

Jennie: Hi, Ianthe, thank you so much for being here today.

Ianthe: Hi, Jennie. Really happy to be here.

Jennie: So before we dig into everything, do you want to take a second and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Ianthe: Sure. Hi everyone. My name is Ianthe Metzger. I use she/her pronouns and I'm the Director of State Media Campaigns at Planned Parenthood Federation of America. And I'm just happy to talk about all things repro, cause there's a lot happening right now.

Jennie: There's so much happening. And like, I think we all thought we had a year before having to like really face the like possible end of Roe and then Texas happened and sped everything up. So maybe we should talk a little bit about like, what's happening in Texas. Like where are we at right now?

Ianthe: Yeah, where to begin. So of course, Texas’ six-week abortion ban, SB8, went into effect on September 1st. It is an unusual law and by unusual, I mean particularly disturbing law because it has this private right of action provision that allows anybody to sue anybody who helps someone get an abortion. So that could be your doctor, the nurse who holds your hand, your pastor, anybody who helps counsel you can be sued under this law. And if successful that the person who sues can then collect $10,000. So it's a really, really horrific law that Planned Parenthood along with the Center for Reproductive Rights and ACLU and the Loring Project have been challenging in court, but unfortunately it went into effect on September 1st. We are still litigating of course, and the Department of Justice has also sued in the case. And so we are preparing for oral arguments at the Supreme court on November 1st. It's going to be a really, really, really, really important day. The court will be considering two different things and the challenges to that case on November 1st. So in the case brought by the Justice Department, the court is going to be considering whether the federal government even has the right to sue in federal court to block the laws enforcement, which, you know, we argue that it does absolutely cause you know, abortion access is a constitutional right, of course. And that on the abortion providers case, would… that Planned Parenthood as a part of the court is going to be assessing the laws, um, private enforcement structure that I mentioned. And so, yeah, we're going to see that these, these questions will not particularly get at Roe v Wade itself. There is of course another lawsuit that is going to be getting at that in about a month's time, but that's basically what's happening on the lawsuit provision piece of this. But of course on the ground and things are really, really awful right now in Texas, we have patients who are either forced to carry unwanted pregnancies against their will or patients who are fleeing the state if they have the means to do so and at Planned Parenthood health centers, particularly in Oklahoma, New Mexico, Colorado. They've seen a huge influx in Texas patients right now. And it's been really devastating and hard for patients, for providers, for people who care about abortion access. It's a really, really tough time in Texas and across the country.

Jennie: Yeah. And that just, I mean, it gets just something we always try to talk about here is like, that's, I mean, it's terrible and it's, but it's at least some people are able to travel, but there are so many people who are not able to afford to either travel or take the time off to be able to travel. So, I mean, it's even worse than it may kind of seem to when you hear that so many people are traveling that there are probably a lot of people who are not able to and are being forced to continue pregnancies they don't want.

Ianthe: Yeah, absolutely. And that's going to fall primarily on people with low incomes, people in rural areas, Black and brown communities that, they're the ones who will already have the hardest time getting access to abortion or just healthcare in general. And they're the ones who are going to be left behind. You know, I, I think about, you know, the undocumented people who can get pregnant in Texas who have to go, go through like checkpoints to leave the state and they can't do that. You know, there are a lot of different things to take into account and it's really, really awful that, that we're at this point that, and everyday this law is in effect. It's the day of cruelty and we're doing everything we can to stop it. But we know that, you know, over the past two months, they've just been thousands of Texans, very likely who have not been able to get the relief that they need.

Jennie: And the scale of it, like I think, you know, I live in Washington DC. So like, you know, having to travel to the next state or maybe even two states, like that's one thing, but like Texas is a huge state. Like you have to travel a long ways. Like if you're in the Rio Grande Valley to get to the next available state that is hopefully not too incredibly hostile to be able to get care. I think most of the states around it.

Ianthe: Yeah. Like in Oklahoma, for example, I believe there's a 72-hour waiting period between appointments and people, even if you can't afford to travel, maybe you can't afford to take that much time off work or to make two trips. Like it's just unconscionable how difficult it is to access abortion in general, beyond just, you know, Texas spanning it almost outright, but it's, it's become something that is a right in name only like if you can't access it, then it's a meaningless right. And so we are definitely at a crisis point in this country for where we are when it comes to abortion access.

Jennie: So this episode we're recording before the arguments happen, but it's going to come out the day after. Do you kind of know like any idea of like, not what you think is going to happen, but like timeline of like when we could find something out?

Ianthe: Yeah. I mean, hopefully by the time folks hear there's we know something, we of course want something to hear something immediately. And we do think that in these sort of cases, when the Supreme Court takes them up at this expedited timeline that they typically do rule relatively soon. So we do hope to hear, I mean, do we expect to hear pretty soon, but we of course have no idea that the Supreme Court can do whatever they want to do. But we do think that we'll know within the next, the few days following.

Jennie: That's the like big emergency case that just like popped up out of, I mean, it, it just, everything happened so fast and just kind of decimated access, but there's another big crisis coming up. That was the one we had already known about. And that's the Mississippi case and that's coming up in December. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the Mississippi case?

Ianthe: Absolutely. So the Supreme Court is going to be hearing Dobbs v. Whole Women’s Health Organization, which is Mississippi's 15 week abortion ban. And the case that was brought by the Center for Reproductive Rights on behalf of that clinic, which was actually the last provider and Mississippi. And of course we know that 15 weeks is blatantly unconstitutional and the Mississippi, the state of Mississippi has actually asked the court to overturn Roe V Wade and Planned Parenthood v Casey, which is really, really problematic and crazy that they're sort of saying the quiet part out loud right now that this is what they've always wanted to do, but you know, if they do overturn Roe v Wade or allow the Mississippi law to go into effect, it could really open the flood gates outright. You know, we know that there's, for example, a similar law in Louisiana that is on hold right now. And if the Mississippi case, if the Mississippi law is allowed to stand, and we know that Louisiana's law is going to probably be allowed to send as well. And you know, we also know that 26 states could move to ban abortion if Roe is overturned and that could affect 36 million women and trans men and nonbinary folks, all of them could be impacted if we, if Roe is overturned at the Supreme Court on December 1st for the Mississippi case. So a lot at stake, for sure.

Jennie: Yeah. I think it is one of those that I worry….and I think I've seen these fears kind of escalating with the Texas case of like, we, over that Roe will get overturned because they will uphold Mississippi, but they're not going to say, it's not going to be a ruling saying “we're overturning Roe”, right? Like it's going to be like this kind of soft overturn, which is still just going to absolutely decimate access, but like it might get covered not as Roe being gutted. And I kind of worry about that.

Ianthe: Yeah. We're really worried about that too. And from our perspective, any, anything the Supreme Court does that allows [inaudible] to stand is effectively an overturning of Roe v Wade. And that's how we're talking about it. That's how we're positioning this fight. And I think that, I mean, I do hope that people understand that because this law is a blur, it's blatantly unconstitutional and there's sort of no other way to talk about this. I mean, in Texas, we're saying that Roe is effectively meaningless in that state right now. And we've always known that that was just going to be the beginning if it was allowed to stand. So we're, we are really nervous about how people are going to be framing the Mississippi case, given where we are. But it's really important that we're really loud about like what this actually means, because what it means is that the Supreme Court has ignored 50 years of precedent and overturned a law that the majority of Americans, by the way, support.

Jennie: Yeah. I agree. I think it's, our community has been very clear about what it means. And it just kind of takes me back to like, when you would see these fights happening in the state, you would see like some heartbeat ban or personhood law put up. And like, there was a big outroar over it. And then like this, they're like, “oh, we'll pull back on that.” But then do like a 20 week ban or a 15 week ban or like something else. And that it's like not covered as much. So like, it is a little scary to think that like, because they're both up together, it could be seen as, I think you're seeing a lot of language around “compromise” and we don't compromise on rights, like come on people.

Ianthe: Yeah. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's really, when I hear that, it's so frustrating because there is, and we've always said that Roe is the floor, you know, it's not the ceiling. We shouldn't be trying to like, you know, parse, okay, well, what is okay? Like what is it okay, like, this is, these are people's rights. These are people's own choices. This is their future, their futures. And that's really all it comes down to. And they should have access to all the available options depending on what's going on in their lives. And so we are incredibly worried that they're going to just sort of, you know, paint “we are able to get SB8 blocked in Texas,” paint that as a victory and then, and then know that, “oh, and the Mississippi case while the Supreme Court overturned that, but we got Texas.” So it's all great. Like, no, no, absolutely not. And it's where we're trying to lay the groundwork now to get that messaging out there and just make it make clear that anything that flies in the face of Roe v Wade is unacceptable and unconstitutional, but it's going to take a lot of work for us to really get that message out there for sure.

Jennie: Okay. So what I think it often is talked about as like this political football, right? Like it's really high level, Roe, and often the people get lost. So like, what would this mean for people if Roe were to go away in, you know, if they uphold Mississippi; I think Guttmacher released some really great data on the day where we're recording, but like what is this going to mean for people?

Ianthe: Yeah. Um, yeah, Guttmacher relseased some great data on like driving distances. If the 26 states that I mentioned do move to ban abortion, if Roe is overturned and Planned Parenthood, I mean, we are, we're a provider, of course. So it's critical that we always center patients in all of this because they, as you said, often get lost in these conversations. But yeah, I mean, we are expecting that there will be those 26 states that overturn, that the move to ban abortion, and that's going to affect 36 million people at minimum. I mean, in Texas right now, we're sort of seeing what that reality looks like. 7 million women of reproductive age live in Texas. Many of them are leaving the state, as we mentioned, to get care. And we are just hearing horror stories of what it's like, how harrowing those journeys have been for people. We've heard stories of folks who were sexually assaulted and minors who have, who have had to flee the state to get care if possible. Yeah. I mean, so Planned Parenthood health centers in surrounding states have seen, this is a crazy number, but 1082% increase in patients from Texas zip codes seeking abortion. And that was just for the month of September. And it's only going to be getting worse as the longer that this law stands. And we had patients… who, there was one specifically who flew all the way to New York to get care because they were able to do that. We've had patients come in, who many of them are already parents by the way, who know that they're not at a point in their lives where they can afford to bring another child into their lives and who have broken down crying with our doctors, our doctors who are trained to provide this care who feel helpless and who feel like they are harming their patients. In fact, because they're not providing care that they were trained to provide. And it's been really, really difficult for them as well for the staff. They've talked about how our call centers have turned into crisis hotlines because people are just calling and they don't know what to do. They don't know where to turn. So it's really us working with our navigators to help them get the support that they need, whether that's getting them the funds to travel out of state or getting them the funds to get on a plane or whatever options that they have available to them.

Jennie: You know, and it's really striking seeing like over a thousand percent increase and that's just one state banning abortion. So if it were 26 states, like, that is clinics and other states, aren't going to be able to keep up, even if people are able to travel those distances, right? Like seeing like how far some people will have to go. It's like basically the entire south, middle of the country. When you like, look at the map, like you're not talking about easy distances that people are going to have to travel to access care, to get to a state that is available, but is going to see, I think what was the data that Guttmacher said, like predict like Illinois could see like a 9000% increase. Like how do you, how does the state of…

Ianthe: Yeah, it's almost impossible. And I mean, we now know that in states like Colorado, where people are going, that the Coloradans have to go out of state to get care because all the Texans are in Colorado. Like that is just unsustainable. And as you said, this is the effect that, that has had, that'd be seen on one ban for one month in one state, like, and it's just only going to get worse. And I mean, we're doing everything we can to shore up our health centers in those other states. But at the end of the day, like this is just, even if people can get out of state, as we've said, like many people cannot and they're going to be forced to carry a pregnancy that they do not want. And that is really, really horrific that we're at this point.

Jennie: And honestly, if we're not also talking about the other big looming crisis that we also need to talk about in a lot of these states is the maternal mortality crisis. So like this isn't, this is a health crisis, right? Like abortion is healthcare, but also it's people's lives at stake.

Ianthe: Yeah. In Texas, that's one of the worst maternal mortality rates in the country. And could you imagine being in Texas, not being able to leave, you are pregnant, you are not able to have that child for whatever reason and know that you have to give birth in a state that doesn't even care about you during that process, a state where you could potentially like die through that childbirth. Like that is just horrific to think about, and that's the only option for many, many people. InTexas, the lawmakers there just don't, they don't really, they don't care about how this is actually affecting real people. Unfortunately.

Jennie: And again, as you said, so many of these people already have children.

Ianthe: Yeah. No, that's, I think a big piece of people forget like that. You know, most people who have abortions are already parents and therefore they know what's best for them and their families. And I mean, we shouldn't judge them for any reason, but that's just another thing to keep in mind, for sure.

Jennie: Again, like, as you hear all of this, like my heart just always breaks for like all of these people who just don't have good decisions that they can make right now for so many reasons, if you can't travel out of state or I just, I feel so terrible for the people, but I also feel terrible for all the people who work at the clinics, who are trying so hard to make sure that people are able to access care and help them get care. Like it's just gotta be a really heavy, emotional toll on all of the people who work in your clinics.

Ianthe: It really, really is. And I mean, being somebody who works at an abortion clinic is already a really hard job. You're already getting inundated nonstop with people's hate about you and about what you do, even though, you know, that you're doing the right thing, but you know, just the added burden of knowing that you're in a position where you can't help these people because of all this political maneuvering is really, really heartbreaking for our clinic staff, on whether that's people in our call centers or patient navigators or nurses. Like they're all having a really, really traumatic time right now. And in Texas, because there is this quote unquote vigilante provision that allows anybody to sue anybody. You know, we know that there are people now outside people’s house that are taking down license plate numbers, and like really like ramping up the crazy vigilante and scare tactics as well. So it's, it's even harder for them personally because they can't provide the care, but also like mentally and all of those things as well.

Jennie: Yeah. Okay. That's probably enough focusing on like the terrible...

Ianthe: It's all pretty terrible.

Jennie: Maybe we focus on solutions. Like what can we do to ensure that people are able to access care? What needs to happen?

Ianthe: Yeah. Well, I mean, we are definitely advocating for the passage of the Woman's Health Protection Act for sure. Which did pass the House of Representatives. And this is critical in that it would actually protect the right to abortion throughout the state. And it would guard against laws like Texas’ SB8 by establishing like a statutory right to provide and receive abortion care. So it's really, really critical legislation. It's historic that it passed the House and we of course want the Senate to swiftly do the same, but it's also important to be clear that WHPA is not the solution to everything. You know, it will not grant all people equitable access to abortion and healthcare overnight, but it is just one of many, many steps that we are advocating for and an important first step we think, and the fight to ensure that everybody can access this constitutional right. For sure.

Jennie: Yes. That would be an amazing step for people.

Ianthe: Yeah, no, I was just going to also add that… I mean, 2021 was the worst year for abortion restrictions in recent history. You know, there were more than 600 restrictions introduced and a hundred of those have passed, including SB8 of course, but also just big picture, you know, 90% of Americans are living in counties where there is not one single abortion provider and there are 27 cities that are abortion deserts because the people who live there have to travel at least a hundred miles to reach a provider. And then they're also, you know, only five states, including Mississippi that have one abortion provider. So there are just, things are, have long been dire when it comes to access. And even though Roe is hanging by a thread but intact for now, except for in Texas, of course, many people just still there, they're already living in a post-Roe world because it was never a right that they could access in the first place.

Jennie: Yeah. And I think adding on top of all of what you already talked about is so many people not being able to afford to get an abortion for various reasons, but one of which is the Hyde amendment.

Ianthe: Yes. And we’re, you know, very, very encouraged by the movement that we've seen at the federal level to really talk about the Hyde amendment and really want to shout out our partner, as you know, All Above* All who really pushed this issue for a long time and who have really just shaped the conversation and changed it in a way that I think is just really, really incredible. And it's been great to see some critical spending bills introduced that do not include the Hyde amendment. And we're hopeful that that can continue, but we know that anything in Congress takes time, but we're, we're very encouraged by where we are right now, for sure.

Jennie: Yeah. I, I really appreciate the point of like Roe is intact, but it still hasn't been the reality for so many people for a very long time. So as you said earlier, like Roe is the floor. It is not the ceiling. We have so far to go to ensure that everybody who wants an abortion is able to get one.

Ianthe: Yeah. And that's why I'm just really glad that we're having this conversation, that this podcast even exists, because it's just great to have these spaces where we're looking toward the future and what does the future of abortion access looking like, but also being realistic and taking stock of where we are now, where we need to go.

Jennie ;Okay. So we always like to end with being proactive. So we talked about big picture, like what, what needs to happen, but what can our audience do? What steps can the audience take right now to help? I'm sure a lot of people are feeling kind of helpless in the face of all of these things, right? Like there's so much happening. What can they do?

Ianthe: We would definitely love for folks to go to bansoffourbodies.org and take our, sign our pledge and get more information about what you can do and what's happening in your state specifically. But of course, you know, when it comes to WHPA, as we mentioned, it's stuck in the Senate and hasn't been brought for a vote yet. So definitely calling your Senator, telling them that you support the legislation and saying that you, you know, don't think that, that there should be any politics involved in your decision to do what you want with your body and your future. I think that that could really be helpful at this point as well. So I would encourage folks to do that too.

Jennie: Well, wonderful. Thank you so much for all of this helpful information yesterday. I had a great time talking to you, so thank you for being here.

Ianthe: Yeah. Thank you for having me.

Jennie: Okay. Y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Ianthe. It was wonderful talking to her about some really terrible, terrible things. We'll keep you updated on what happens with SCOTUS. You know, if we get a ruling, maybe we'll do an emergency episode, but you know, keep an eye out. We'll make sure to keep everybody in the loop about what is happening.

Jennie: Thanks for listening everyone. And we'll see you on our next episode of RePROS Fight Back. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at RePROS Fight Back, or on Instagram at reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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