From Communion to the Courts: Reproductive Health and the Catholic Church

Reproductive health and the Catholic church have been heavily featured in the current news—from the Fulton v. Philadelphia Supreme Court case to the U.S Conference of Catholic Bishops moving to deny President Joe Biden, who is Catholic, the sacrament of communion. Jamie Manson, President of Catholics for Choice, talks to us about these recent instances of the Catholic Church’s reach over sexual and reproductive health and rights.

The Fulton v. Philadelphia Supreme Court case involved Catholic Social Services, a foster care center, which was contracted with the city of Philadelphia. The city upheld non-discrimination laws which prohibiting it from contracting with discriminatory social services agencies. Catholic Social Services expressly stated that they would not engage in any services with same-sex couples or unmarried couples, leading the city of Philadelphia to sever its contract and Catholic Social Services to sue the city under the first amendment. Ultimately, the Supreme Court unanimously ruled in favor of Catholic Social Services in an extremely narrow ruling.

The U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops has been in animus with current President Joe Biden’s support of abortion rights and policy, even though President Biden is a devout and practicing Catholic. Since the day his Presidency was called, the bishops have been outspoken against his administration. In November, the bishops established a special committee to explore the confusion that Biden’s status as a pro-choice Catholic president could create within the church. The committee voted to create a document that bans Catholic and pro-choice elected officials from receiving the holy sacrament of communion. The U.S. Conference of Bishops will vote on the passage of this document in November and will need a two-thirds majority vote for success.

Links from this episode

Catholics for Choice on Twitter
Catholics for Choice on Facebook
More Information on Fulton v. Philadelphia
How Your Catholic Hospital is Restricting Your Care Podcast Episode

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Welcome to this week's episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all when I was recording this, it was really hot out. And to make sure we get the best audio, I have to make sure like my air conditioning is not running and things like that. So I was just sitting there melting during this whole interview, but it's okay. Let's turn to a great conversation. I didn't completely melt. So I hope you can't tell that my brain was a little scattered because of it. I hope everybody had a wonderful 4th of July. I took a long weekend. I was really needing some time away. I was really starting to get where I needed to step away and relax. Um, I had not been doing great prioritizing self-care and was really just crumbling under the stress. I am one of those people that when I get really stressed, my stomach starts acting up and it was starting to do that. And so I really needed to just step away and forget about everything. So I took a four day weekend that weekend and it was delightful. I didn't go anywhere or do anything; the area I live in in DC has a lot, a lot of fireworks. And while they are gorgeous and I love watching all the fireworks in the whole area around me, I'm like the last tall building in my area. And so I can just see fireworks for miles and miles. It's just gorgeous. My cats really freak out and get really scared. So I had to be home to be here. One of them will always come and sit with me while the fireworks are going off and the other one will hide under wherever I am. So when I was in the living room, she was sitting underneath the couch near me. And then when I went into my bedroom, she was hiding under the bed. So it's hard for me to leave them during this time because they do, they get really upset and really stressed. It's really loud. You know, I'm on the top floor of my building. And when fireworks are going off around us, they're blowing up like right near where my unit level is. So it, it can be really loud in here. So I do feel for them, but I do enjoy the fireworks. They are really beautiful. And I still, as somebody who grew up in a household that didn't do fireworks, I am in utter astonishment of how much some people must spend on fireworks around me. Like the, the huge shows that some people put on around here are unbelievable. There are just so many, but I enjoy watching them. So I'm glad they do, even if the kitties are quite scared, but I do feel sorry for my kitties. So I think those are like the big things. I feel like not much has happened. You know, I did some reading and I relaxed over the long weekend and watched a bunch of movies. And you spent some time outside during the day. Cause it was nice out, but nothing too exciting. I'm trying to think if I baked anything… I made English muffins. I think that's one of those things I talked about maybe last year of trying things that intimidate me and that was making English muffins because they're one of those things you have to griddle instead of bake. And to me, that always seemed to super scary, but now I know no problem. I make them not regularly, but you know, a couple of, you know, I've made them three or four times and I still have my sourdough starter going. So I make sourdough ones and they are delightful. And so that's what I've been having for breakfast this week is toasted English muffins with, um, peanut butter, which is my favorite. So it's, you know, nice to have for breakfast.

Jennie: Those are my big things. I think with that, we'll turn to this week's interview. I had an amazing conversation with Jamie Manson at Catholics For Choice, we talked about kind of a laundry list of things that are happening related to repro [things in the news] that were centered around the Catholic church recently. And it's a great conversation. I hope y'all enjoy it. And with that, I will turn it to my interview with Jamie.

Jennie: Hi Jamie. Thank you so much for being here today.

Jamie: Hi Jennie. Thank you so much for having me back.

Jennie: I am really excited to talk to you. There've been so many, I feel like Catholic bits of news in the news recently that you were the person that clearly came to mind as the person we needed to talk to, to sort through it all.

Jamie: Well, thank you. I'm always here for Catholic bits.

Jennie: But I guess before we get started, instead of just jumping right in, maybe I should take a second and be like, Jamie, would you like to introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Jamie: Sure, absolutely. Uh, my name is Jamie Manson. My pronouns are she/her. I am the President of Catholics for Choice.

Jennie: Great. So let's start with the Supreme cCurt. There was a case that was decided this term that relates to the Catholic church. Do you want to tell us a little bit about the Fulton v. Philadelphia case?

Jamie: Absolutely. Once again, the Catholic church is in the court, as they have been many times over the past few years, they were in the Supreme Court twice last year with some consequential rulings in their favor. This time around Catholic Social Services had a contract with the city of Philadelphia to do foster care. And the city of Philadelphia has non-discrimination laws that prohibit it from contracting with social service agencies that discriminate on the basis of race, religion, and sexual orientation, Catholic Social Services, because it's a Catholic organization, said they would not engage in any services with same-sex couples; also unmarried couples, interestingly. So Philadelphia declined to renew its contract with the agency. Catholic Social Services sued claiming the city violated its rights under the free exercise clause of the first amendment. So a lower court ruled in favor of Philadelphia against Catholic Social Services. So then, Catholic Social Services then appeal to the Supreme Court. That's the case that there was a ruling on two weeks ago.

Jennie: Okay. So what was the ruling? And then we'll talk about like kind of what the implications were.

Jamie: Sure. Absolutely.

Jennie: It wasn't as terrible as, as it could have been, which I was really worried.

Jamie: Yeah, we were too, but it's another case of what feels to me as a person like death by a thousand cuts. So in this case, the decision was made on June 17th. So it wasn't a unanimous ruling… nine to zero…

Jennie: Which was shocking.

Jamie: Yeah, it sure was. Cause we do have a few liberal justices left on the court. The decision was written by Chief Justice Roberts. I mean, it was a very narrow decision in favor of Catholic Social Services. What could have been is what Catholic Social Services wanted, which was to overturn the 1990 Employment Division v. Smith case. What Catholic Social Services wanted was to establish a brand-new special right to religion-based anti-LGBTQ discrimination. But the court did leave Smith intact. Thank God. Smith, for people who may not know, held that religions don't get special exemptions from laws, as long as those laws are neutral and apply generally. So a narrow ruling, it could not have been as bad, but still, you know, another, another injustice toward couples.

Jennie: Yeah. And it didn't make me necessarily breathe a huge sigh of relief. Right? Like it was upsetting. It wasn't as upsetting as I feared it could have been, but I wasn't relieved to think that this meant it wouldn't go further in the future.

Jamie: Yeah. And what's, what's scary. There is two things and the fact that what the Catholic church was seeking there, which was this new sweeping special right which would've had very grave implications, not only for people, for women, for all sorts of vulnerable people, you know, whether it's people who… elderly, you know, people who are sick. I mean, you know, there was, it could have been very, very scary. And also, what's disturbing is Justices Alito and Thomas, that they should've overturned Smith, you know, they wrote and that's disturbing because the cases in the pipeline that gives the court a chance to revisit religious refusals again, and Smith will certainly come up again.

Jennie: Yeah. It's again, the, the conflation of kind of the Catholic church getting involved in so many of these areas, right? There's healthcare, there's social services. And then trying to get all of these really broad religious exemptions that undermine access to care for the rights of LGBTQ couples to adopt it all really frustrating.

Jamie: It is. It is. And I, I think what's scary for me is that people still don't… Catholics and non-Catholics in this country still underestimate the power of the church over their lives and over their bodies. And that's what I keep trying to explain to people. It's one of my missions is when people say me out “oh, the church doesn't matter. I'm over it. Nobody cares about the, who cares about the Catholic church? Just ignore them.” You can't ignore them because they have enormous power. And with every one of these rulings, every time they show up in the Supreme Court, they take away civil rights. I mean, for me, one of the most disturbing cases in recent memory was just last year in the Out Lady of Guadalupe School v. Morrisey-Berru case where you had an employment discrimination issue and the church won and they won the right to really not be accountable to any labor laws. So that if you work at an institution where you could be classified as a minister, and that could be very broad, you know, you could be in a, in a charitable organization, would be the secretary. But if you're handing out literature, you could qualify as a minister. It's a very, very general term. You can be fired for any reason. You could be fired because you're old, because you're sick, because you're Black, because you're a woman. If you were sexually harassed, you know, you try to make a claim against it. You could be fired and there would be no consequences for the religious organization. So it is… it's disturbing and we really have to pay attention.

Jennie: Yeah. And I think you're right. Like people have no idea how much it impacts their lives. I'm sure you will get the punchline right away. When I start this story as I did, but a friend was telling me a story about a friend of hers who was pregnant and wanted to get an IUD inserted right after she delivered. And the doctor was like, “Oh no, you need to talk to your primary care physician. Like we can't do that.” So like instantly, what do you think?

Jamie: I assume Catholic hospital.

Jennie: Yeah. But it took them a while to get there. Cause it was not so named. Right. Because the system has expanded so much. And so people don't know like things like that, that person had no…that's why the doctor was telling her, yeah, she couldn't do it.

Jamie: Yeah. It's gotten very deceptive. And these, uh, what people don't realize is if you know, the Catholic church owns one in six hospital beds in the world, and that includes in the US. And so if you're at a facility that is owned by the Catholic church, the directives, the care directives are established by bishops, not by doctors. We have a, we have a new saying, we've said “a doctor is not doctrine,” because really it's doctrine, that's being [delivered]. That's very conservative and pursues, a very right-wing agenda that is making your decisions for your healthcare. So there are so many ways it impacts people. And there are so many mergers happening where Catholic hospitals are merging with private hospitals or public hospitals. And when they do those mergers, typically the bishop’s directives become the rule of law for that hospital. And so, and people don't realize because they're not necessarily named “St. Joseph” or “Assumption of the Blessed Virgin Mary Hospital” or something… they’re called “Ascension,” or they're called “Dignity”. And so we are really working hard on how to promote awareness of this, because this does have life or death consequences in some cases.

Jennie: So I guess that really, since you brought up the bishops, that is the next thing that was happening is what are the bishops trying to do? So I guess maybe we should start with, why are the bishops so upset with Joe Biden?

Jamie: Well, they're upset with Joe Biden because Biden is a faithful Catholic and talks about himself in that way. He goes to mass at least once a week, if not more. And he supports pro-choice policies, he supports abortion rights. And they, from the day his election was called, the bishops made public their feelings that his presidency was going to create confusion in the church and among the faithful.

Jennie: What does that cause them to do? Like what is happening right now?

Jamie: So the bishops have their meeting twice a year. And, uh, when they had their meeting this November just before they had their meeting, the election was called for Biden. And at that meeting, the bishops immediately said they were going to establish a special committee to explore the confusion that the Biden administration and that Biden's being a Catholic president could create in the church. So they established that committee very quickly. It's amazing how quickly the church can move when it wants to and how slowly to move on other issues…uh, establish a committee, that committee met for maybe a couple of months. And then they decided, you know what, we're going to vote to create a document that will give us the leverage we need to ban elected officials who are Catholic and pro-choice from receiving communion.

Jennie: And I guess maybe taking a step there in talking about if you're not Catholic, maybe not understanding why that is such a big step?

Jamie: Yeah, absolutely. It's a big step because the Catholic church has seven sacraments and the most powerful sacrament and the sacrament that people receive the most is the Eucharist. When you're Catholic, you can receive Eucharist every day. They do a daily mass, and it is the central unifying ritual of the church. It is the one most closely tied to the life of Jesus who welcomed everyone to his table. It is the symbol for us becoming one with each other, as a community of the faithful and becoming one with God. Catholics believe God is actually longing to be, to reach out to us and to be one with us. And that we are supposed to be one with each other in our faith. And so there's this very rich symbolism and mystery really about that, about the sacrament. So it's, it's really like the lifeblood of the church.

Jennie: Yeah. I think often when you maybe hear it talks about it, so like they're just going to deny him community and like, people don't understand that it's… within Catholicism it's a really powerful sacrament.

Jamie: Indeed. Indeed it is. And you know, it, to be denied communion is very shame-creating. It gives a profound sense of unworthiness and you're literally starving someone out. You know, I say to people, imagine being invited to dinner and then being told you have to stand outside the door and look in while everyone else is eating and you can't share in the meal, imagine how that would feel. That's what this feels like.

Jennie: Yeah. Yeah, no, it's very targeted. And I feel like it's one of those things we've heard talks about many times over the years. I feel like there was a round of it when Speaker Pelosi became Speaker for the very first time. I'm sure it has happened other times. So that's one, I specifically remember so far there hasn't been action taken. But this feels like it's happening in a more concrete level than it has in previous iterations. Right?

Jamie: So this is a real escalation of the situation because this previously was kind of done on a case by case basis, depending on the Bishop and how much of a culture warrior he was and how high profile the politician was. I grew up remembering Cardinal O'Connor and Governor Mario Cuomo in New York, fighting out, fighting this out. This is an escalation because the bishops… have taken a move, made a move as a body to create a teaching document that would give them leverage and would back them up for taking this action. They would have an actual document to reach back to and say, this is what we have decided. So it is next level.

Jennie: Yeah. It seems like there was a bit of, I mean, it feels like an escalation, even though it was trying to like, to tamp it down with having the Pope speak out about this and speak against it.

Jamie: Right, right.

Jennie: That was surprising anyways.

Jamie: Oh no, you were not alone there. And I've watched this papacy very closely since 2013 and every papacy before that, since I've been sort of an adult, it was shocking. It's shocking to see the church openly disagree to see these men, these church men disagree in a very public way is stunning. And it shows you how rogue the US Conference of Bishops has gotten when even the Vatican is telling them to pump the brakes. I mean, the Vatican… as much, as people love Pope Francis, the Vatican is not a bastion of liberalism or progressivism, including…Francis is not either. So to see them, you know, and the guy who wrote the letter for Francis is very conservative. It was stunning. And what's even more stunning is the bishops still went ahead anyway, knowing they had the votes, you know, they knew they had the votes.

Jennie: So where is that right now? So I know they just had a meeting.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jennie: So where are we at with like, what's actually happening?

Jamie: Well, we're in an interesting place. I actually, the meeting was riveting, and I had a number of 20-somethings on staff who were riveted by this meeting, which I saw as quite a win for the mission, you know, to watch the open debate, uh, was, was very interesting because you saw bishops who were saying, “no, please do not do this. This is a really terrible decision. Let's talk about this.” And then to other bishops, just calling it out as just saying, “this is political, this is about 2022 and 2024.”So they had this very rich debate. And then they voted, we don't know who voted which way; we have some sense based on how the debate went, but it was only 55 bishops or 280 bishops who were voting, only 55 voted against it. So they needed two thirds. So they moved forward with an overwhelming majority to craft the document. They kept saying this isn't new norms. The Vatican was blowing it out of proportion. This is just guidance. This isn't a policy, you know? So they were really trying to like, walk it back a little bit, but they're moving forward. They'll present the document at their November meeting and they will have to vote. Then they'll need the two thirds majority at that meeting. I apologize-- at this meeting they just had, they only needed a simple majority, but for the actual documents pass in November, they will need that two thirds majority.

Jennie: So to me, this feels very stigmatizing for people who may be pro choice within the Catholic church, right? Like you may have already felt like you were going against what the church was saying, but now you're seeing them, the bishops, the leadership, trying to take this step too. I mean really ostracize people and be like, you're not welcome if this is your view. That just feels really harmful to me beyond the politicians being denied.

Jamie: Absolutely. And, and what I have keep saying is that, remember that one in four women have abortions, remember that Catholics have abortions at the same rate as the rest of the population. So when you're saying this, think about who you're saying it to, you know, all the, you know, the number of people who have had abortions, who are in the church are stigmatized. People who know people who have had abortions are stigmatized. And we know that 56% of Catholics in the US support abortion rights, think it should be equal, excuse me, legal in all or most cases, 68% of Catholics in the US do not want to see Roe vs. Wade struck down. So it is very stigmatizing. And what has surprised me is the outrage that came out and it wasn't just from pro-choice Catholics. I saw a lot of middle of the road, even somewhat conservative Catholics saying you've gone too far now. And I think that bishops felt that heat a bit, I really do. And I think that it's, it's going to cause harm for the church and a great embarrassment for its leadership.

Jennie: It just makes me wonder, and, and maybe that will be enough, but like, what's next, like, right? I feel like abortion has always kind of been going after the abortion rights has been like a beginning, not an end, right? Like you've seen the real escalation on attacks on LGBTQ rights have kind of followed later within the church. So it just makes me worried about like where they would think of attacking next. Right?

Jamie: Exactly. And there have been cases where they have denied communion to openly queer people. They, you know, this is not new. Now this teaching right now only relates to abortion rights, but what is to keep them from denying communion, to people who support same-sex marriage, who support contraception, who support trans rights, you know, that is like, where does it stop? You know, I mean, we really saw that in an interesting way during the COVID vaccine, when it first got rolled out and we had bishops speaking openly about the right, the lack of morality, the moment it happens, I told him about that. Well, I know it's so much fun when you really, you know, look back at, you know, all of the older, the problems they've started. And that's where I started asking myself, where does it stop? Because a few bishops were, were sewing reels of the, of the J&J vaccine specifically saying, well, it used, you know, these fetal stem cells and it's morally compromised. And then they still, the bishops started a letter writing campaign about two months ago to pharmaceutical companies to say, stop using fetal cells. Well, where does it stop? That's just about every vaccine we have has some tie to these same fetal cells, and a lot of our medications for very serious illnesses, like Alzheimer's and things like that are used in this research. So where does it stop? You know, and what's painful about it is to me, issues like that when they started about the vaccine show that they're not, it's not about protecting life, it's the opposite. You know, it's about wanting to play this role as political agents, you know, and, and using abortion to activate a very right-wing agenda. And I'm not even sure the bishops want that as much as their funders want that. There's a lot of very wealthy [funders], right? When Catholics who have a lot of power who are pushing this agenda.

Jennie: Yeah. Uh, that man, I can't believe, I totally forgot about the, the, all the controversy around the Johnson and Johnson vaccine.

Jamie: Yes. They're the gift that keeps on giving.

Jennie: Well, thank you, bishops. I went and got Johnson and Johnson anyway.

Jamie: It's a, it's a life issue. It's a PR issue..it’s a protection of life, dignity of life issue, life or death issue. It's crazy the way they lose, you know, it's so obvious that this isn't about protecting life, the way they supported Trump, the way they came after trans kids… the fact is sewed suspicion about the vaccine, you know, the way they're using this, making this political move, it said the bishops have lost their influence over the people. And they know that. And I think some of them have turned quite successfully, unfortunately, to lensing policy and legislation and law.

Jennie: Yeah. I feel like now, maybe it was, I was young and naive and not really attuned to politics when I was younger and actually went to church and stuff, but it feels so much more political than it was when I was younger, but I could have been oblivious...

Jamie: No, I think it's gotten worse. I really, really do. You know, the church in the eighties was much, much more sensible, believe it or not, it has gotten more and more and more reactionary over time. You know, people were talking about how this was an issue for John Kerry in 2004, the bishop started it and like, well, what's different. I said, we're going to do completely different political milieu and a completely different church. Things have gotten so extreme in the last few years. It really got amplified and really escalated during Trump that I think we're in uncharted territory. I really do with, with the extremism in the, in the polarity and the way in which religion is seeking to influence politics and making a lot of compromises for the sake of political power and influence.

Jennie: Yeah. I feel like also, you've definitely seen religious liberty and religious freedom become a weapon instead of a protection in a way that you've not really seen it before.

Jamie: Absolutely. Yeah. We say a sword, not a shield, is what it's become. And that's been in the last 10 years, you know, and people who were looking saw it 10 years ago and when very right-wing religious forces, some Catholic, some evangelical, some Zionists signed something called the Manhattan Declaration in which they decided that this was going to be how they pivoted. And I think that part of it was they saw that they were losing the game on same-sex marriage. They're very, you know, right. When people can see, you know, 10, 10 years ahead, you know, that's one of the reasons they're so successful, they can see 10 years ahead. They're always ready to pivot. That's why abortion became the, it was invented, you know, in the seventies, you know, people know that history because they can see way ahead. And [it’s] easy to motivate people. You know, when they live in a black and white universe, it's very easy to mobilize people. And so 10 years ago, they signed this Manhattan Declaration saying this religious freedom was going to be their new cry. And they very brilliantly used the messaging of that. They are under siege, they are under attack, um, making themselves the victim and all of this, they do this very successfully. And that is why I keep saying the religious left has got to get loud. It's got to get organized and it's got to reclaim the moral high ground and stop this narrative of that. They are under siege. They're the ones in power, you know, it's, it's really manipulative.

Jennie: Well, I think that brings us perfectly to, I always like to wrap up with what actions can people take. So, you know, our audience right now, what can they do? I think some people probably with all of this might feel a little helpless in the face of, I mean, the literal patriarchy.

Jamie: Absolutely. Yeah. We got a lot of letters at Catholics for Choice of the day that Friday, when the bishop’s vote became known, we just got flooded with letters of people feeling adrift and, and powerless. And, uh, one of the things we immediately started to do was we organized letters, letters to bishops, which something I think people would be surprised at Catholics for Choice was writing letters of thanks to the bishops because some of them actually were. And for me to say this Jennie, is a very big deal, some of them were very courageous. I never thought I'd say that. And they did speak out and, you know, in a very bold and very clear way, calling out what was happening. And so we wanted to write thank you letters so they could feel supported. We also think it's really important to write to Biden and to, we also have this wonderful thing happened with Congresspeople, they wrote a statement of Catholic principles. It was led by representative Rosa DeLauro, um, in which, you know, 60, at least 60 Catholic Congresspeople signed a letter saying, you know, we believe we are Catholics in good faith. We are pro-abortion, but that's because of our commitment to justice and human dignity. So I think that we need to…

Jennie:…did I need another reason to love her?

Jamie: …Exactly, exactly. Yes. I know she was my rep for so many years in New Haven. It was, you know, I got to meet her, uh, recently. And it was, it was really wonderful because, you know, this does for Biden for DeLauro. I, you know, for a lot of these Congress people, their pro-choice values come out of their faith, not in spite of their faith. It's because we're so well-formed in understandings of social justice. The Catholic church has a very sophisticated understanding of social justice teaching. And because we do have these very sophisticated ideas about human dignity, that that's where our formation is and understanding of conscience and individual conscience. So we thought it was very important to write letters of thanks to Biden and to, to these Congresspeople and to thank them. They need to know that the majority of Catholics support abortion rights, the majority of Catholic Congresspeople support abortion rights. You know, a lot of people don't realize that, you know, the majority of council Congresspeople are not anti-choice. So that was the first thing. And I think we should keep doing … telling Biden, we have his back, people who are listening, people of faith. I think they should absolutely say I'm a person of faith. And I support abortion rights. I think that the, the religious left voice has got to be heard. So I think that's very important. And I think that if you are disgusted by the bishops to tell them that I think they felt a lot of heat that they weren't expecting, and they need to know that they've just gone too far this time.

Jennie: Well, Jamie, thank you so much for being here as always. What a pleasure to talk to you.

Jamie: You as well, Jennie, thank you. I'm delighted to be back.

Jennie: Okay. Y'all I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jamie. I had a wonderful time talking to her as always.

Jennie: Thanks for listening everyone. And we'll see you on our next episode of RePROS Fight Back. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at RePROS Fight Back, or on Instagram at reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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