Finding Progress and Joy in State-Level Reproductive Health, Rights, and Justice Policy

Particularly after the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization decision, reproductive health, rights, and justice can feel very doom-and-gloom. Yet, states around the country are continuing to undertake progressive and opportunistic legislative advancement. Jennifer Driver, Senior Director of Reproductive Rights with the State Innovation Exchange, sits down to talk with us about exciting state-level movement, how to successfully work with legislators, and what wins we may expect to see in the near future.

 Increasing contraceptive access, the removal of funding for crisis pregnancy centers, and the introduction of constitutional protections are just some examples of progressive state legislature that may expand and support sexual and reproductive health and rights. In addition, some bills focused around maternal health, doulas, and midwifery are sources of hopeful change. While it can often feel like SRHRJ is impacted by one bad policy after the next, let’s take a moment to celebrate the encouraging push for access across the country.

Links from this episode

Jennifer Driver on Twitter
State Innovation Exchange on Twitter
State Innovation Exchange on Facebook
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro] Read More

Hey rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'alI I think I, you know, I told you my birthday was earlier this month. I forgot to mention on a very exciting note, I got an extra special present on my birthday. My two Anthem awards came, and it was so exciting to actually hold the trophies in my hand. And we'll probably share a picture. I'll make sure that Elena posts one on social, so you can see them. They're beautiful. It really, it was like this extra special gift on my birthday and it really made me happy. Like, what amazing timing! Just so much fun. Let's see, what else is exciting? I feel like I've just been a little blah lately and I'm ready for spring and like to be out and, like, I think I need to get back to, like, going out on walks during the day more. I feel like I've just been really busy with work and so focused on like, getting this report out that we have coming out next week and all of these things that I've just been, like, focused and buttoned down and like, just like working on the things instead of, like, taking, taking like 20 minutes to go walk around the neighborhood. And I think it's starting to get to me a little bit, so I need to be better about that. So, let's just say that's something that I am working on and, like, my inner Statler and Waldorf have been particularly loud lately, so I just need to be better about the self-care right now. So, I'm gonna work on that. Yeah, gonna work on it. I think those are like the big things happening right now. I think we'll just, like, maybe go to this week's interview because I'm really excited about it because not just talking about all of the things that are going wrong, because, I mean, there are a lot, but there are also people who are doing really great things and state legislators who are trying to introduce good new policies. And I am so excited to have the wonderful Jennifer Driver with the State Innovation Exchange on, to talk to us all about the good things that she's seeing at the state level. And y'all, it was just what I needed was to have this, like, dash of hope and like, have a really almost, like, 99% just positive conversation about the good things we're seeing in this space. And it really- it made my day. So, I hope listening to this hopeful conversation makes yours as well. So, with that, let's go to my interview with Jennifer. Hi Jennifer! Thank you so much for being here today.

Jennifer: Hi, thanks for having me!

Jennie: I'm so excited to have you. It has been a very long time since I've seen you, so this makes it extra exciting.

Jennifer: Yeah.

Jennie: But before we get started, would you like to take a minute and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Jennifer: Sure. Hi everyone. I'm Jennifer Driver, she/her pronouns. I'm the Senior Director of Reproductive Rights with the State Innovation Exchange.

Jennie: Like I said, I'm really excited you're here and I feel like talking about repro, I feel like so often doom and gloom. And I'm so excited to talk to you because we're gonna talk about great things that are happening at the state level, which I think people too often think of all of the terrible things that are happening—and that's not to say they're not—but I'm really excited to, like, let's talk about the hopeful things. And so, maybe let's just kind of do a big picture, like, what are you seeing at the state level right now?

Jennifer: I actually really love this framing because I think it, you're right, it's often that we only focus on the gloom and doom. And as we think about what we need to rebuild following the Dobbs decision, like, we need to be thinking about where there’s elements of progress, where there's joy and how we can find things that are really inspiring. And so, even though nationally—and, you know, we're coming up on an election in November that there will be 85 state legislative chambers that will be up for an election—there's still a lot of opportunity. One opportunity is to see, you know, how do we keep those legislators in office that are really bold and visionary and cannot not only play defense, but how do we get on the offense and move things forward? And so, while, yes, there are some really bad things that are happening in states, the beauty of state legislatures is that things move really quickly, right? So just as hard and fast as the bad bills that move, those really proactive pieces of legislature legislation can move really quickly as well. Whereas it's very different at the federal level, right? You know this. Everything is stalled. It moves really, really slow. But the beauty of the state houses is that things can move really quickly. And so, we have the great opportunity to push forward some really proactive and visionary things as we build to this world that we wanna see.

Jennie: I really love not focusing on, like, just the defense and trying to prevent the bad things from happening, but to dream bigger and do proactive things. So, what are you excited about right now that you're seeing?

Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, so there are things around a couple of different buckets, right? There's a lot that's happening around contraceptive access, which I'll go into in a second. There's some things that are happening around removing funding for "crisis pregnancy centers” that is really exciting to see. There are some constitutional protections that we're seeing. So, maybe I'll start a little bit with the contraception because it's kind of at the forefront of a lot of folks' mind. We've had the announcement of Opill, you know, the contraceptive pill that's gonna be over-the-counter. And so, maybe let's start there?

Jennie: Yeah.

Jennifer: Okay, so in Idaho we've got Senator Melissa Wintrow looking to expand healthcare health benefit plans and student health benefit plans to cover prescription contraception, that it must provide reimbursements for six months' supply except under certain circumstances. But the idea is that there is this expanded access for contraception coming in Idaho. And like, why that's so important is because often we're not thinking of really proactive things that are coming out of Idaho, right? Sometimes you're like, “oh, these red states, there's not a lot of really great things happening in these states.” And yes, even in these kind of red, ruby red states, there are some beauty and some really positive things that are happening in those states. You are also seeing a lot of bills related to contraception that require community colleges to develop and implement plans to provide students with access to over-the-counter contraception. That's a big win, that's happening out of Maryland. We're seeing, you know, bills that would allow for reproductive health care including incarcerated individuals. And that's happening in Massachusetts. There are some constitutional protections that are happening. You know, a bill in Tennessee, there's something in, like, South Dakota and Arizona and while some of these bills, right? So, I know listeners are gonna be like, okay, but they were introduced, but are they gonna be moved? It doesn't actually matter. Like, yes, we want movement to happen, but the very nature of these legislators in these states that are introducing these legislation, having conversations about it that it's happening is a positive thing, right? I think, you know, we kind of rest on thinking: okay, what are the bills that we can actually win or that will pass? And for me, I also wanna see what gets introduced in state houses.

Jennie: I think it's so important to talk about the, like, glimmers of light you're seeing in red states. And as we're having this conversation and when this episode comes out, we're getting ready to launch our annual 50 state report card. And, you know, while there are glimmers of light in red states, there are also places where there are blue states that have big gaps of, like, things that need to be filled. And like, so I've been doing the report card for, I think this is going to be our 11th or 12th one. And, like, every year I do it, I'm always shocked at some of the, like, blue blue states that like—going back to your old life—don't mandate any form of sex education.

Jennifer: Across the country, we're continuing to fail our young people, whether around sex education, the information that they're able to receive, the access to care, how they can actually control their own bodily autonomy without having someone else control it for them. And so, you're right. In blue states, where they're moving on so many expansive policies, the policies that they continue to fail on are the policies around young people. And that needs to change.

Jennie: It's on my mind just as 'cause we're doing the report card and oh man, it's so frustrating to see some of the states that where that's the case.

Jennifer: You know what, it's really disappointing because I think in a lot of states where you can put forth bold policies, the thing that they're always willing to carve out are young people, right? They'll say, oh, we wanna pass this piece of legislation, we wanna get it over the finish line, but actually it will be easier if we remove access for young people. And they are willing to make that concession. And what's really disappointing is often it's not the antis that are, you know, saying, hey, we need to make this carve out. It is our side that is so willing to...unwilling to take risks that will allow for us to be really bold and include everyone as part of the conversation, including young people.

Jennie: Okay. So, we talked about expanding contraceptive access. What's the next bucket you wanna talk about?

Jennifer: Yeah, so the other one that I probably wanna highlight...so, Illinois has a really interesting bill, it's by Representative Kelly Cassidy. So, this bill seeks to provide people who are unfortunately forced to relocate to Illinois as a result of a tax on healthcare. Whether it'll be around abortion access or gender affirming care, that if they were to move to Illinois, they would be able to get this $500 tax credit. Now again, I know people are gonna say $500 isn't a lot, it is a start, right? It is a different way of thinking about: how do you get assistance to people who are going to be relocating into the state? The bill also provides the same credits for licensed healthcare providers or teachers and their households coming to the state. And so, you know, I think in this time of kind of grappling with: how do other states respond to the people who will be coming into their states? What's really being creative is them thinking about what are the resources and needs for the people coming in their states? So, I can give an another example. Kelly Cassidy, the representative from Illinois, once Dobbs was coming, she said, you know, it wasn't enough for me to figure out: what do I need to improve the lives and conditions in my state? I know that more people will be coming to Illinois, so how do when they get here? And so, she's been doing a lot of thought about: how does she assist people who will be relocating into Illinois based on them having to leave their own state? Now, is that enough? That's the one thing I wanna say, like, is that enough? No. People should not have to leave their state to come to another state to get care. And this is one thing that a legislator's thinking about as, as more people come to Illinois,

Jennie: I have really enjoyed seeing how Illinois has been trying to think through ways to make sure that they're expanding access for the last couple years. I grew up on the Wisconsin Illinois border, so very close to the heart, like a couple hundred yards from Illinois. So, like, always keep an eye on it. And so, it has been nice to see that, even as Wisconsin was kind of failing people around reproductive healthcare.

Jennifer: Yeah, I mean, I think we have this convening that we just recently held that talks about beyond borders and what the US can learn from other countries. And what's really interesting is that one of the legislators said during our conversation: I wanna look beyond borders of states as well, right? Like, so how can I learn from other states? What are they doing that's really innovative that I need to be implementing? How can I tweak that so that it will work for my state, but how do I look beyond just my individual state to recognize that everyone needs care? And how do we talk across to other legislators to ensure that we're able to get care to the most number of people? At SiX, we hold these rapid response rooms every week with state legislators, and it's a really great opportunity for them to be talking to one another, strategizing, thinking through, okay, what are you doing in your state? What could possibly run in my state? What are the bill amendments that I should be thinking about? And so, you know, when people are thinking, “oh, not a lot is happening,” there's so much happening, right? And there's a lot happening behind the scenes and that actually gives me a lot of joy. It gives me some optimism as we go and move forward just to know that there's so much happening.

Jennie: Yeah, that's one of the things I really love that y'all do is setting up that space and that community for pro-abortion and repro broader legislators to talk together to have that sense of community and support. I mean, I think that's so important, especially if they're in unfriendly states where they may not feel that support in their state, but knowing that there is a big community trying to push these things and, you know, connecting with other people who are maybe in unsupportive states, I just see that as such a huge, huge thing.

Jennifer: I think it's nice also because in these spaces they can ask whatever question, right? That there is the, you know, I'm not showing up as someone that's holding you accountable in your state. While I do want you to be held accountable—the decisions you make are really important—but it is a space where you can just be really authentic, ask the questions that you need to ask, and figure out what is going to be best for the folks in your state. And I think that that is really important. I also think, Jennie, if I'm being really honest, it's really important for legislators of color. What I am concerned about, you know, why we're talking about a lot of optimism right now, the thing that I am really concerned about is the women of color, particularly Black women in state houses right now, who are just hit with a barrage of just everything, right? Just everything coming at them and the number of them that are saying, you know what, I just can't do this anymore. And that's really harmful because I- the way that they have shown up really with that reproductive or that justice framing that we are really fighting for is critical. And, you know, they're not endorsed at the same rate as their white counterparts. They don't get the same funding to run for office. And yet they are coming to the state houses with this intersectional approach that we're often wanting more legislators to come with. And so, you know, when I think about what are the ways that we need to continue to support legislators and work with legislators, it is thinking about legislators as a person, but themselves in totality of what they're actually facing in the state houses.

Jennie: That is so important. Like, I think it's one of those things that gets, I mean, I dunno if left out a lot is quite right, but in certain circles, right? Like there's just like a really big push on like wanting to see more women in elected office, but like then they forget the other pieces of like, I wanna make sure that we're seeing LGBTQ people-

Jennifer: That part. That's right.

Jennie: -and people of color and Black women and, like, bringing all of the experiences because once we have the more representative-looking group of legislators, like, we'll get better policy.

Jennifer: And it's so true because legislatures right now are getting older, they're more white and they're more male. And so, the lived experiences, the policies that we want to see put forth are not happening, right? Because the people who are closer aren't the ones that are actually in the center making these passing these legislations or these bills, right? The other part that I think gets left out of the conversation is most state houses are either underpaid or not paid at all. They're part-time legislators with no staff. So, often we think about congressional leaders—that have staff, they have money, they have resources. That's not the reality of state legislators. And so, the expectation just looks a lot differently because they are part-time, right? They are underpaid. They are working multiple jobs and still showing up day in and day out to put forth some really, you know, progressive pieces of legislation.

Jennie: Yeah, it was just made me think of like the barrier of entry being so much-

Jennifer: That's right.

Jennie: -higher for that diverse crowd. Again, it's the, so many things need to be fixed all at once in order to...like, you think of like one simple fix, but it's like all of these layers of things that need to be improved in order to get to that vision.

Jennifer: That's true. Okay. So, but again, maybe coming a little bit back to some of the exciting things on that, I wanna just name one other additional one that I have not named-

Jennie: Yes.

Jennifer: -is around funding, right? So, we have talked for years about anti-abortion centers, “crisis pregnancy centers,” the ways that they lie and are deceitful and all of the harm and, and bad things that they do. And there are legislators that are actively working to fight against this, right? So, in Pennsylvania there is a bill, there's a bill that would allocate $10 million to family planning providers and prohibit funding for anti-abortion centers. So, we're seeing more and more pieces of legislation that are trying to defund and prohibit state funding for anti-abortion centers In New York—to your point about kind of these blue states that still need, there's so much more that needs to be done—there's a bill around providing state funding to providers and abortion funds and establishing an abortion fund that allows taxpayers to bank gifts to. That's really important because on the flip side, there was a state that had put this bill forward that was going to allow tax credits for people who are contributing to anti-abortion centers, which is so harmful, right? Because it's not only harmful, it is deceptive. In that, people are thinking I am contributing funding to these centers thinking that they are actually helping people not knowing the reality of what these centers actually do. So here, what we have on the flip side in New York is actually providing tax credit for abortion funds. And that I think is really interesting and something new that I'm seeing this year.

Jennie: I really love to see that. Again, one of those other things that's like seeing more familiar with—because it's on the report card, is like we give states things beyond that are measured in the report cards. Like they get like an A through F score for things we measure, but then they make it a plus or minus for things that are good or bad that aren't included in the report card. And one of those minuses is those "Choose Life" plates that fund crisis pregnancy centers.

Jennifer: That's right. That's right. The last thing that I think I wanna just really make sure I highlight is kind of the narrative shift that I'm seeing that's happening in states. So, we bring on state legislative fellows every year and one of the fellows came on with Senator Natalie Murdoch out of North Carolina last year, and one of the things that we were really trying to get a sense of was around self-managed abortion in states and what did state legislators know? And what she did was she did these in-depth interviews with state legislators about their knowledge, their attitudes and belief around self-managed abortion. And that gave us a sense of how to work differently with legislators, but it was from those conversations that a legislator was like, oh, I wanna make sure that people in my state have access to self-manage- like, that can self-manage their abortion without being criminalized. And so, she went back and introduced a bill to ensure that people who self-manage their abortion weren't going to be criminalized. There's still a long way to go, like there's more that needs to to happen with legislators, but it was still a really great way to help think about: how do we change the knowledge, the attitudes and behaviors around state legislators on this issue, but also where do we need them not to be barriers and cause more harm for people who need abortion care in their state?

Jennie: Yeah, that's definitely one of those things that's so important right now in the world we're in is to, like, yes, have the visionary things, but also having the harm reduction of things that maybe aren't expanding access but are preventing further harm. And like, when you can talk about criminalization, like, that is like a huge harm that we need to really think about ways that we can stop it.

Jennifer: I mean, I think often that we talk to legislators like, here's the thing we need you not to do. We don't need you to legislate medicine. Right? You're not doctors, you're legislators. This is where we need you to be. But where also we need you to do is remove the barriers so that providers can actually provide the care to their patients. And as long as we can get legislators to see that part, that's how we're gonna be working with them. And I think that's a really critical piece and more will be coming, you know, as we do more work with them on that.

Jennie: Okay. So, that's what you're seeing now, do you have any, like—I know you, you totally have a magic crystal ball and can see the future—but like, where do you think you see some of the proactive legislation going in the next year?

Jennifer: I wish that...I mean, this conversation has been so optimistic, right? And in my head right now are all of the bad things that I know are coming, right? That's the thing that I was really struggling about, right? I was having a conversation yesterday with some legislators about our nervousness around personhood, right? And so, there's so much...this is the part where I, you know, yes, I'm, I wanna talk about all of the really good things and I'm like, oh, here are some bad things that are, that I know are coming. Okay. So, I'm gonna put the bad things aside for one second. I think that there are some really great things that are happening around maternal health, right? Particularly Black maternal health in states and in southern states particularly. So, I'm excited to see what legislators are and how they're moving around maternal health midwifery and doula bills, right? I think that those are awesome—that's something really great. I'm also- as more and more call to defund anti-abortion centers, you're seeing more and more states put forth bills to ensure that state funding does not go to anti-abortion centers. I think we are seeing a lot of legislators learn from the failures of our movement to think about how they can fight back against a lot of these gender-affirming- like, these these anti-trans bills, right? And so, they are...like, a lot of the folks who were lead sponsors for a lot of the LGBTQ bills in states have been coming and talking to some of the lead sponsors of like the repro bills to say, you know, how can we strategize and think? And so, we're seeing more and more cross-movement kind of conversations that are happening in the legislative spaces that I think is really important.

Jennie: It's so important because it's the same playbook.

Jennifer: It's the exact same.

Jennie: And, like, we need to, we're talking together because it's gonna have very similar, if not the same solutions. And the whole goal of some of this is to peel off support between the two.

Jennifer: That's right. That's right.

Jennie: And so, we can't let that happen.

Jennifer: It's to peel off the support and it's seriously to say, okay, this is the issue that we're gonna focus on right now. We're not gonna worry about that one over here—all while they're able to chip away at LGBTQ rights on this side because we're so busy focused on all of the bad things on the other side that are the other issues that are happening. And so, you know, it, it is, it is part of the playbook. And so, the more that we can get legislators to, to talk and, and realize this, and it's not saying that they didn't, but I remember when I started first started kind of really working with legislators and saying, hey, I'd love for you to, you know, be more involved on some of these repro bills. And they said, you know, I will vote for them, but that's really not my issue. And you can't say that anymore, right? Like, we really need you. All things are gonna be your issue because these things are really interconnected. And so, we're seeing more and, and more legislators really taking charge of being vocal on all of these attacks and not really the attack that they, you know, the issue that they came into the State House for.

Jennie: Okay. So, I always love to wrap up—and I know you're gonna have lots of great ideas on this—of how can people get involved? So like, how can our audience get engaged on these issues?

Jennifer: So, the one thing that I always say, the first thing I always say is find out who your state legislator is, right? If you are in a state—not like me, where I'm in DC—and you have a state legislator, find out who your state legislator is. If you're in DC, learn about the council, right? Learn what they're putting forth. Get to know them, do outreach to them. The other thing that we're seeing is: there are often times that we don't have enough folks testifying for these really key bills, right? Whether you're a provider in states, there are states that have a wealth of providers, right—New York always has a provider, California has providers that they always go to. But there are times when I'm, like, in Idaho, right, in Kansas, in these other states that if you are in those states, we often need people to testify in state houses. And it just doesn't happen. Like, sometimes we will have a much smaller number where the antis have flooded into the State house and they're there for hours and they're able to spew their hate all day long. And so, if you're able to and willing, we would love to see and connect you with some of the legislators—have you testify, get connected because they really do need to hear it. The other thing that I would really say is applauding legislators when they do really good things, right? They hear all of the time, all of the bad, you know, when they do things, something bad, they hear about it. When they do something good, they don't really always hear about it. And it is really, really important that you are saying, thank you so much for doing this, even if you're not in that state, right?

Jennie: This part.

Jennifer: So, there are oftentimes that I will see something that will happen in Nebraska—I don't live in Nebraska, but I will reach out to it. "Thank You so much for doing this because this is really important and here's what it means for people in Nebraska, but not only in people, for people in Nebraska, here's what it means for everyone else." And so, doing the outreach and really telling them thank you is something that I can't stress enough. Yeah, those “thank you”s are so important. I mean, legislators are people, right? So, like, they really like to know that they're doing good and hearing that support 'cause they're probably hearing from all of the people who are unhappy that they took that action, right? So, like, hearing from those that are happy is really important. And it could be the day that they're like, you know, this was a really tough day in the State House and your “thank you” could be, that's like a re-energizing thing for them of, like, yes, I am doing something really good. You know, we're human​​—even ourselves when we have really tough days and we're like, oh, I don't know if I'm doing this right, and you just get that one email of praise and you're like, okay, I can do this. It's the same thing for legislators. They really do need that.

Jennie: Jennifer, thank you so much for coming on. It was a joy to talk to you.

Jennifer: I love coming on. I always love talking to you.

Jennie: And we got to talk about happy things. Like, what more could I ask for?

Jennifer: I mean, in this moment, we have to remember all of the really good things. There are things that are gonna sustain us, and it's not the anger and the hate that is being spewed. It is those things that are really gonna inspire us, right? That are gonna fuel us to continue to build. And that's what we need to kind of rely on and can remember as we move forward.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, like I said, I really had a wonderful time talking to Jennifer. It was really just, like, that dash of hope I needed. And I'm gonna take that into my weekend because I'm recording this on Thursday, so I'm gonna take it into my weekend and just, like, savor the hope. And with that, I'll see all of you next week. [music outro]

If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!