Fight for Your Right to Access Abortion Through Your Union

In the wake of the Dobbs decision, which overturned Roe v. Wade, abortion access has become dependent on one’s location. Accessing an abortion involves considerations like employer-sponsored healthcare coverage and taking time off of work. Barbara Camens, union side labor attorney, sits down to talk with us about the importance of access to affordable, comprehensive reproductive health care as part of the collective bargaining process.

25 million women if reproductive age now live in a state that bans or severely restricts abortion. In order to access abortion care, people need to travel to other states, which includes taking time off of work, possibly taking time off of work on short notice, incurring significantly higher medical costs under employer healthcare coverage, and more. As terms and conditions of employment, this means employers should be required to bargain in good faith with unions.

Links from this episode

Why & How to Form a Union
Abortion Model Collective Bargaining Agreement Language
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]
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Hey rePROs! How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter and my pronouns are she/her. So, if y'all are listening to this when it comes out, happy Halloween! I hope everybody has had a wonderful spooooky season. I have enjoyed watching some of my favorite Halloween movies. I still have some that I'm gonna try and get through this weekend as I'm recording this weekend before Halloween. So, hopefully I can do that. I've already made sure to watch Practical Magic and Nightmare Before Christmas. But I still have, like, Hocus Pocus. I haven't watched that yet, so I'll make sure that that happens. And then, something scary. I don't watch anything scary yet this year. Same with my reading. Like I have done, like my fun witchy spooky vampire-y kind of things, but like quirky fun ones. Nothing scary yet. I don't know if it's gonna happen before Halloween, but I gotta read something scary sometime soon. It kind of feels wrong to not read something scary during spooky season. Kind of weird. Let's see here. I love Halloween. I love seeing, like, all the little kids dress up, so I'm really looking forward to seeing everybody's social media posts showing what their kids wore or their pets. I got the kitties a new Halloween costume. Normally, I have, like, a little Caterpillar costume that I make one of them wear or a lion's mane. This year, I got them fun dragon wings, so we'll see if somebody will tolerate wearing a costume long enough for me to get some silly pictures. So, I'm looking forward to that. But yeah, Halloween was not one of those, like, big holidays in my house. My mom was, like, all out for Christmas, like so much decoration happens around Christmas, but when I was little, she always made my Halloween costume. And you know, we did do, like, dressed up for school and I know I've talked about this before, but I grew up in a rural area. So, I mean, to give you an idea of what I mean when I say that: my block that I grew up on is five miles around. And it's actually when I talk about, like, I grew up in the Wisconsin state line area. My block is actually one side is Wisconsin, one side is Illinois, and it's five miles around. So, it's not like there was, like, door-to-door trick-or-treating happening, but we always made sure to stop at my neighbor's house to do, like, a little trick-or-treating and to my adopted grandparents in town. And then I feel like, I remember my mom maybe treated it a little bit like Easter, where there was, like, a basket or something like that to make up for the fact that I, like, couldn't go trick-or-treating. So, that was always- she always made it fun, which was very nice. And like, when I was little, we didn't have cable, so I missed out on a lot of the, like, fun Disney Halloween movies. But I remember watching, like, It's the Great Pumpkin, Charlie Brown. I haven't seen that in years. And just...they did what they could to make it fun. So, it's one of those holidays that always just, I don't know, it makes me happy. So, I'm looking forward to it, even if I don't have anything major planned this year. And I think we'll stop there. Not a ton of other things happening for me right now. I just have like a bunch of things I need to do around my condo. Like I said, I have some family coming later next month, so I just- I have things that need to get accomplished before they come. And with that, let's turn to this week's interview. I'm very excited about it. I really got lucky and met our guest at an event that she was at, and we started talking and I got so excited hearing about her work, and I was like, "oh my God, you have to come on the podcast." And so, we finally made it happen. And I am very, very excited to talk to Barbara Camens. She is a labor lawyer and we talk about why abortion is a labor issue and why that she is doing work trying to get abortion rights and other reproductive rights and labor contracts. And it was such a wonderful conversation. So, let's go right to it. You can hear my interview with Barbara.

Hi, Barbara. Thank you so much for being here today!

Barbara: Hi, Jennie! I'm very happy to be here as well.

Jennie: Before we get started, do you wanna take a quick second and introduce yourself, including your pronouns?

Barbara: Of course. So, my name is Barbara Caymans. My pronouns are she/her. I am a longstanding union side labor attorney. I've been involved in representing unions in a variety of industries for several decades. I am currently general counsel to the News Guild, CWA, which is a very progressive union that's engaged in a lot of causes, including the issues of reproductive rights and reproductive health. I'm also just an individual who's long been engaged in the fight to ensure abortion access and access to the full array of reproductive health services. So, I truly appreciate the opportunity to be here with you today.

Jennie: I am so excited 'cause we're gonna talk about something that I've not talked about this on the podcast before, and you know, I bet our audience is kind of familiar, especially 'cause unions have been in the news a lot this year, but maybe we should really start at that really basic beginning of, like, what are unions?

Barbara: What are unions? So, unions are organizations whose purpose is to represent employees in what's known as a collective bargaining relationship with an employer. At the workplace, unions essentially give employees a collective voice in seeking to set their working conditions under a variety of laws: federal, state, local laws. Many employees have the right to decide democratically whether they want to be represented by a union. And if that majority support for unionizing is- you know, once that's established, then the employer has a legal obligation to recognize the union as the exclusive bargaining representative, the employer has a legal obligation to sit down with the union to discuss any disputes about working conditions, and to try in good faith to reach an agreement on all of the terms and conditions of employment that will govern the workplace for the unionized workforce. So, it's a very powerful collective process that is protected by law.

Jennie: Yeah, I say this is something I grew up around; I had union in my broader family. I grew up in southern Wisconsin, so a lot of kids I went to school with had parents who worked at a jam plant in Janesville, Wisconsin. So, this is something that is just living and breathing from a very young age.

Barbara: Yeah, I grew up in Youngstown, Ohio, so same experience as you. It was very much a union town, and I just grew up with an understanding that the economic opportunities that my friends and their families had to reasonable middle class lives and access to higher education was really a result of the efforts of unions to negotiate for reasonable terms of employment and reasonable compensation for the work that folks do, you know, every day during their working life. So, I'm with you on that.

Jennie: And then also, obviously, learning at a very young age, you don't cross a picket line.

Barbara: You do not cross a picket line. Good for you. I would say, you know, unions—in terms of just awareness—unions, in terms of union density in this country, it's probably hovering around 10-11%. It was much, much higher when I was growing up, or even earlier in the sixties, seventies. But I do think that there is an increasing recognition at this moment, this particular moment—and frankly among a younger generation of workers—of the importance of unions, the value of unions, and you know, what they bring to the table on behalf of, you know, folks in their day-to-day work lives. This democratic and collective voice and this process where employees' concerns can be raised, and employers are legally obligated to engage and try to meet those concerns. So, again, a very powerful process.

Jennie: So, I mean, this is a reproductive rights, health, rights and justice podcast. Like, people may be going, Jennie, why are you talking about unions on a repro podcast? Why is union a repro issue?

Barbara: Access to affordable, safe, reproductive healthcare, the whole spectrum of reproductive healthcare—those are issues that unions can, and frankly, I believe should* properly engage on with employers in the collective bargaining process. You know, in the wake of the Dobbs decision, a year and a half back it became clear that people in this country working, people in this country were losing their constitutionally protected right to abortion access. And, as we know, abortion access now turns so significantly on where folks are located, where they reside jurisdiction to jurisdiction, state to state. You have safe haven states, and you have a huge swath of this country where workers are denied accessible abortion care within their jurisdiction. So, you have American workers who are becoming abortion travelers in order to continue to access their needed reproductive healthcare services that they are seeking. And so, what has dawned on me in the wake of the Dobbs decision and many others in the labor movement, is that guaranteeing continued, safe, affordable access to abortion and other reproductive healthcare services turns on workplace issues. And that's where these two issues of my passion and involvement with the labor movement and my passion and involvement with reproductive healthcare, that is where they align. If workers are becoming abortion travelers, accessing abortion really comes down to a lot of nuts-and-bolts issues of working conditions. You need time off of work. You need time off of work on short notice, depending upon your personal circumstance. You may be incurring travel expenses in order to access abortion care, whether it's in your state or outside of your state. You may be incurring significantly higher medical costs depending upon the terms of your healthcare coverage. You know, most employers provide healthcare coverage as a term of employment, depending upon the kind of healthcare coverage that's given. The workers who are traveling now to access abortion care and reproductive healthcare services may be incurring significantly higher medical costs. Employees increasingly have very legitimate concerns about medical privacy at the workplace. If you're taking time off, if you are seeking healthcare coverage for services with an employer who's antagonistic to those services, or in a jurisdiction where those services are restricted or banned by state law, employees have concerns about surveillance, about privacy, about retaliation. Each and every one of those issues that I've talked about, which I think collectively those issues really define and address whether workers have access, reasonable access to abortion care. Those are terms and conditions of employment. Those are issues on which unions can require employers to engage. They can require employers to sit down and bargain in good faith. And so, again, that is where these two very important forces and issues—the labor movement and access to reproductive healthcare—they align. So, it dawned on me in the wake of Dobbs, and frankly probably should have dawned on me long ago as a union lawyer who cares about reproductive healthcare, that this fight for safe, accessible reproductive healthcare services is a fight for the labor movement to take on on behalf of the workers they represent.

Jennie: This is what I was so excited to get when I met you at a tea we were at, because, you know, this is something we've talked about, like, employers need to do these things, but I hadn't made the union connection yet. And like, once we started talking, it was like, well, obviously this is a union issue to get unions engaged on, and it just hadn't occurred to me.

Barbara: Well, again in the wake- it was when the Dobbs decision leaked, and there was a lot of discussion with my main union client about what we foresaw in terms of this increasingly repressive environment, the fact that we represented members in states that were likely going to severely restrict or ban abortion access. We thought, what can we do? And it was like this light bulb went on in our heads. These are issues about healthcare and time off from work and non-retaliation and medical privacy. Those are issues that unions have long been engaged in. But what we decided to do in the wake of the Dobbs decision leak was to tackle it, to tackle those issues comprehensively with a focus on this issue of ensuring continued access to abortion care and other types of reproductive healthcare. And so again, I'm a union lawyer that represents progressive unions. We put our heads together and we developed a program which we called Bargaining for Abortion access. Very clear, very straightforward. We analyzed, or I, as the lawyer in the team, kind of analyzed the legal issues about why an employer has a legal obligation to engage. And then we put together a kind of model program to guide the process of collective bargaining about ensuring abortion access, you know how to engage employers, what questions to ask, what proposals to put on the bargaining table. So, we really did this kind of nuts-and-bolts approach. And again, these are issues that we've long engaged on, but it's a different focus because different issues are at stake. So, you know, one of the things we did is you can't bargain intelligently without knowing what benefits, what rights do employees have. You know, the issue of access to abortion care that's affordable to a large extent turns on the terms of your healthcare—often, employer provided healthcare. So, under law, if you are represented by a union, you have a legal enforceable right to ask an employer for very detailed information. And so, one of the first things we did in this program was to say, okay, here's a model request for information. Find out whether abortion is covered under the current healthcare. Is it emergency abortion only? Is it elective abortions? What other reproductive healthcare is covered under the terms of an insurance policy? Are contraceptives covered? Is emergency contraception covered? Is telehealth covered? I mean, these nuts-and-bolts issues. Some current medical plans—even before raising the issue—some plans actually reimburse travel expenses where medical services are only available out of network. So, you ask the question: what are the terms under the current plans? What healthcare providers are in your network that will perform abortion services? You know, what is the level of coverage discounting co-insurance? These are kind of technical issues, but it's really nuts and bolts economic issues. So, you ask all of those questions of an employer. And the great thing about a union is that the union can go to the employer, and because of this collective bargaining process, the employer must respond and give the information that's necessary for a union to bargain intelligently. And if I may, you know, then the next step was...we just put together a series of proposals, nuts and bolts proposals. How do you ensure affordable abortion access? You know, it has to do with the network of providers. You can, we put together proposals that said that to the extent that workers are required to leave the state, required to leave their preferred network of providers, that an employer must cover those healthcare services as an abortion traveler—you know, those services that are incurred, that they're covered under the same economic terms as in-network services. It's, you know, as simple as that. Same with time off. You know, we have proposals about how much lead time you need to give your employer for time off. We have proposals about safeguarding medical privacy that under no circumstances if information is given as to the nature of the healthcare services that are being accessed, that that information cannot be disclosed, and that it certainly cannot be the basis of any kind of retaliation at the workplace. It is a very legitimate fear in this day and age in repressive states that there will be some sort of repercussions for seeking abortion care legally out of state but dealing with an employer that's in a repressive restrictive state. So, we have all of these proposals for the collective bargaining process to make sure that employees, their job security is untouched, that they have the right to access, they have the right to time off, they have a right to affordable coverage. You know, so that's how you go about it as a union. Very nuts and bolts, but boy, we have to focus on the issue because it's impacting a significant percentage of union members that we represent.

Jennie: Well, and I also think just as much of an important part of this is making sure people are aware, right? Like, if you don't know that these benefits are available and when you get them, like, you may not try to access them because you don't know it exists.

Barbara: Absolutely, right. So, part of it, I mean, having an effective program bargaining for abortion access, you know, it's multi-layered. One is engaging with your members, letting them know what they've got, and to the extent that they need to improve their working conditions to make sure they have access to this reproductive healthcare. Then, those workers have to let the union know that this is a priority at the bargaining table. It's also a matter of letting…when you let the union know it's a priority, it's a part of educating, it's a matter of educating the union negotiators. I mean, frankly, some unions are comfortable addressing these issues. Some are not. Some union negotiators may be naive to the fact that abortion is a routine and they're routinely accessed and an essential element of healthcare. Some union negotiators may not be comfortable addressing the issues because it's such a matter of privacy, personal privacy. So, it's a matter of members knowing what they've got, what they want, holding their unions accountable to kind of take up the issue in their interest, and then ultimately holding the employer accountable at the bargaining table and making the employer understand how essential this is for their workforce. I mean, I remember when Dobbs first issued, there were some big corporate employers that on their own said, "we're gonna pay travel expenses, we're gonna cover these increased medical expenses," which was terrific. And that actually to some degree was the inspiration for we in the labor movement to say, okay, this employer, some employers get it. They understand how essential this is, and some employers don't. And it is our responsibility to deliver that message and to make sure that the message is heard.

Jennie: Yeah. As you're talking about this, it made me think of all of the layers of socializing of this idea that needs to happen, right? Like, you were talking about just even, like, the membership, but, like, the negotiators and then trying to get employers to buy in. I mean, that's a lot of work.

Barbara: It's a lot of work. And the way you know, what we say is we are going to the bargaining table to bargain for legal access. So, I am all for the fight, the political fight, in these repressive states to change those laws because I think they're completely out of step with what civil society and citizens want in terms of their own personal rights. But to the extent we're dealing with, you know, a very crazy quilt abortion map of the haves and the have nots, you know, so we go, and we sensitize employers to these priorities, but we're also advocating with our own members to speak up about the issue. We address it as an issue of medical care. That's all it is. It's an element. Reproductive healthcare is an element of healthcare period. And healthcare has long been a central issue and goal of the labor movement—to ensure affordable healthcare. So, you're right, we have to socialize our members to speak up, to not be ashamed or reticent about raising these issues. We have to educate them. We have to educate the union negotiators that this is an important fight and one that they should feel comfortable addressing at the bargaining table without hesitation. That they have the language, that they have the information about, you know, again, how essential and how often this service is accessed by their memberships so that they can advocate fully and without hesitation on these issues. And then with employers, it's like, okay, we're just asking for what we've always asked for, which is affordable, comprehensive healthcare that meets the needs of our union members.

Jennie: Yeah, this is so wonderful. Like, so many episodes we've talked about just like this maze of obstacles that are in people's ways to accessing basic healthcare, accessing abortion, whether it's a waiting period, a travel distance, or all these things. And, you know, often some of the things that come up are the time off work, the travel, the insur- being able to pay for it. And it's, like, all of this noxious soup of things, keeping people from accessing care and like this could help eliminate a number of those barriers. I mean, obviously not all of them, but it would be a huge help.

Barbara: A huge help. A huge help because people don't want to risk their job security. They don't wanna put their jobs in jeopardy. And folks that have to travel great distances and go through the byzantine labyrinth of where can I find care given my personal circumstances? That in itself is so daunting for an individual and I'm sure a very frightening experience. You don't want to add to that concerns about: can you get the time off? Are you going to have a job when you come back? Will you be retaliated against if people in the workplace, your managers, understand what you're doing? SoI think that the collective bargaining process...you know, there's no guarantees in the collective bargaining process. When I said on the front end that there was a legally guaranteed right. It's a right to a process. It's not a right to an end result. An employer has to sit down. An employer legally is obligated to hear the union out on these issues. If members, you know, ask unions to raise these issues on their behalf. And then, it's a matter of advocacy. Just like, you know, the advocacy that we engage in the reproductive health movement, you know, in the, just kind of this, the civic engagement sphere. I think of unions as a form of that kind of civic engagement, but it's specific to a workplace. If you have a union, you have a variety of tools too that are, again, legally protected. You have a legally protected right to raise your concerns publicly and have a public campaign, including a public campaign that calls out an employer who's not being responsive to these issues. You have a right to leaflet, you have a right to picket, you have a right to strike. Now, whether members think that's appropriate to the circumstances, that's up to them. But it's all about collective engagement and collective action. And I just feel you know, when I think about the labor movement, and I think about how the reproductive health movement has long focused on the importance of a strong civil society and civic engagement to ensure reproductive health services the same processes are in play at a workplace that's got a union. So, it just makes so much sense and it allows for very effective advocacy.

Jennie: Okay, so that makes me think of my final question, which is always, what can the audience do? And I feel like you're going to have some really good recommendations.

Barbara: Well, so I guess the first thing I would say is to the extent that anybody that's hearing this podcast is a member of a union, then I would say hold your union accountable on the importance of safeguarding legal accessible abortion access. And when I say legal, that means for those people who are in very restrictive repressive environments with regard to abortion regulation, that means you're going to have to travel for your needed care. And I think it's incumbent upon members to raise their voices to their unions and explain how fundamental this issue of abortion access is. But I say it more broadly, it's just the whole array of reproductive healthcare services, because other services are in jeopardy, given what's going on in state legislatures, et cetera. So, first thing I would say that the audience can do is: if you're a union member, go to your union and raise your concerns and ask them to take up the issue, the collective issues around reproductive healthcare services and making sure that they are not jeopardized, even if you as a union member live in a state where those services are increasingly restricted. Unions are democratic institutions, so again, it's a matter of collective advocacy to your union so that they can take up the issue in the collective bargaining process. I guess the other thing that I would say is for those who are not in unions but are just part of the reproductive health and rights movement, I would ask folks to think about unions as obvious allies in the fight, including the political fight for progressive change. I think that better and greater and stronger alliances can be made between the reproductive rights movement and the labor movement. I talked earlier about the fact that I think that especially a younger generation of workers is finally understanding the power of the labor movement and the fact that labor movement, frankly, has long been a source of progressive change. Unions are typically very politically engaged, and I would ask reproductive rights advocates to think about either calling on their friends in the labor movement or reaching out to members of the labor movement to see how collectively we can put pressure in the political sphere and how we can be better allies in showing up for you know, this fight for progressive change. Especially given this very fraught political moment in which we live because so many rights are being attacked.

Jennie: Barbara, that was wonderful. Thank you so much for being here. It was a real joy talking to you.

Barbara: Thank you so much, Jennie, and I've really appreciated the opportunity to discuss all of these important issues.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my interview with Barbara. I had a great time talking to her. There was so much to learn about the intersection of labor rights and reproductive rights, and I am very excited that we were able to talk about unions. And as I said, one of the very early things I've learned is you don't cross a picket line. So, that will be my closing this week. Don't cross picket lines and I will see y'all next week. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprofightback.com. Thanks all!