Economics and Reproductive Health and Rights are Closely Intertwined

Economics and reproductive health and rights are connected issues. Especially in states where abortion is banned and contraception faces increasing attacks, associated costs for care can vary widely. Kate Bahn, Chief Economist and Senior Vice President of Research at the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, sits down to talk with us about the economic impacts of attacks to reproductive health and rights—on an individual, local, and national level.

Access (or lack thereof) to abortion and contraception can carry a host of indirect and direct financial consequences. Costs from traveling to access abortion, obtaining childcare, and booking lodging can impact how people make their reproductive choices. Individuals can also be financially impacted by unplanned fertility outcomes, such as having a child at a time when they were not planning to. To learn more, you can find our podcast episode on the Turnaway Study with Dr. Diana Greene Foster here. Other financial considerations should also be afforded to those undergoing invitro fertilization and navigating miscarriage. In addition, research shows that those who have access to contraception and abortion experience more flexibility and exploration in academic and professional opportunities.

Links from this episode

Institute for Women’s Policy on X
Institute for Women’s Policy on Facebook
What Happens to Those Who are Turned Away From Accessing Abortion?
The Turnaway Study: Ten Years, a Thousand Women, and the Consequences of Having--Or Being Denied--An Abortion
The Case for Redefining Infertility
IWPR’s Most Recent Estimates of the Costs of Reproductive Rights Restrictions
Power of the Pill or Power of Abortion? Re-Examining the Effects of Young Women's Access to Reproductive Control
TRAP’d Teens: Impacts of Abortion Provider Regulations on Fertility & Education
Do US TRAP Laws Trap Women Into Bad Jobs?

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Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast on all things related to sexual and reproductive health, rights, and justice. [music intro]

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Jennie: Hi rePROs. How's everybody doing? I'm your host Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, it's that time of year where my fall allergies have snuck up on me again. Luckily, it's early and I am not, like, feeling terrible yet. And I, knock on wood, have not developed my cough yet. So, I need to remember to take my allergy meds tonight. I keep forgetting as it's like I feel fine, but I have like all of those little signs I know I get when I know my allergies are starting to come on. And so, I keep forgetting to take my allergy meds tonight. So y'all, you're responsible for reminding me to take them tonight because I really [chuckles], I really would like to not get sick with my allergies 'cause they can really knock me down sometimes and I don't really have time and I have fun plans coming up and I don't wanna be sick for them. So, remind me, make sure I take my allergy meds tonight. Let's see, this morning it was a little traumatizing in the Wetter household. We had the fire alarm go off kind of early and the poor kitties, like, they really got traumatized and scared and were hiding under the bed. And I mean luckily everything's fine. There was, like, a problem that was being fixed on our alarm system in the building. It's fixed, but it meant our fire alarm was going off for, like, five minutes this morning. And the poor kitties were slowly slinking out to try to come near me as I was sitting at my desk but kept going and hiding back under their bed. And so, it's been a little rough for them this morning but they seem to be doing a little better now if not sticking close to me to recover from all of the loud noise that scared them this morning. I feel like I have some fun things coming up but they aren't things I can talk to you about yet. So stay tuned. I think the only other thing is maybe just a bit of housekeeping and that is I'm thinking of doing an Ask Me Anything episode in the near future. I'm thinking that since we have an episode that comes out on Election day, it might be fun to do like an AMA episode instead of, like, a heavy episode. So, if you have questions you would like to see me answer, please feel free to send them my way. So you can either email me jennie@reprosfightback.com and that's Jennie J-E-N-N-I-E. Or you can reach out to us on any of our social media platforms that's @reprosfightback on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. So if you have questions, send them that way and we will, I will try to answer as many as possible for an AMA episode that I think we'll probably, probably do for election day. I think that makes the most sense to have something fun come out that day. Let's see, with that, let's turn to this week's episode. I am looking forward to it. We have Dr. Kate Bahn on, she is with the Institute for Women's Policy Research and she is an economist who looks at the intersection of like talking about the economy and reproductive health and abortion and it's such an important place to have this conversation and I am very excited to talk about why we need to be talking about reproductive health and abortion when we talk about the economy. So with that, let's turn to my interview with Kate.

Jennie: Hi Kate. Thank you so much for being here today.

Kate: Thanks for having me, Jennie.

Jennie: Before we get started, would you like to take a second and introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Kate: I would love to. I am Kate Bahn, I use she/her pronouns and I am the chief economist and senior vice president of research at the Institute for Women's Policy Research. And I'm also a labor economist by training.

Jennie: I am so excited to have you here. I feel like this is one of those things that people may not understand why we need to talk about reproductive health and abortion and the economy and economics all at the same time. I think people have them in very two distinct buckets or maybe even three, right? Like, thinking abortion, some people pull it off separate, but this is all the same conversation, right? So, like, why do we need to be talking about economics and reproductive health all at the same time?

Kate: I mean, this is, it's interesting 'cause I think yes, like, in the policy world we think of them as like very distinct buckets of policy, but I think as individuals, people thinking about family planning get this intuitively as connected issues. Yeah. So, I think, you know, that when people decide when and how to have children, these are the considerations they're making as not only their existing financial security but what it means for their future financial security too. So I think, you know, people get that in their personal lives and some of the work I do now is doing research and writing to sort of make that bigger case about why, if we're thinking about we want a strong economy, when we think about wanting a really dynamic labor market, we need to also be talking about people's reproductive rights.

Jennie: You are right, it is so like innate to, like, when you're making your decisions, but it does kind of, something gets lost in that, like, gap from like your lived life to like thinking about like bigger picture policy that people forget about like the real basics of what's behind these decisions.

Kate: Yeah, exactly. I think that's totally true. But then this is where sort of like this is my role is trying to like bring that research into it so I can sort of go through what I think through my overarching story of the research. And I think, you know, this resonates with people when they're making their own choices is that sort of the relative level of reproductive rights and particularly access to abortion and contraception we know in our lives. And then we know at a policy level sort of a, a wide economy level that this impacts women and their families both directly and indirectly. And so, the direct ones I think of are sort of like immediate financial consequences. And so if you know you have to travel to get access to healthcare, that costs you money, you have to take time off work, that's lost wages, you need to fly or drive, you need to get a hotel. All those things have sort of direct costs to you. And we know that that impacts how people make those choices. There's also the direct costs that come from unplanned fertility outcomes. And so, by that I mean you know, people who have a child at a time, they were not expecting to have a child, or a time they did not want to have a child face different financial outcomes. And so, there's research from this great study called the Turnaway Study that compares women who, you know, right around the same, almost the same level of gestation in their pregnancies, but right above and below gestational limits of 21 weeks. So, we're maybe comparing a woman who's 22 weeks pregnant to a woman who's 20 weeks pregnant. Those are pretty similar women, but what happened to the ones who could not get access to those health services? And what we know happens is a year later they're more likely to have to file for bankruptcy, or require rely on public services, be evicted from their homes. We know that there's direct costs associated with both accessing care and unplanned fertility outcomes. And then the second bucket, and this is where I'm really interested in this research, is what I call, like, the indirect ones. And I think these, again, I think it's intuitive to people, it's intuitive to me in my own life about how your certainty over your ability to make these family planning choices for yourself impact how you plan other things in your life. And so, we know from research that when women got greater access to reproductive healthcare, particularly around the late sixties, early seventies when both birth control pills and abortion became more broadly accessible, women were more likely to complete college degrees. They're more likely to go on and try to get advanced degrees than go into jobs being doctors and lawyers. I have some research myself on the impact of trap laws—so pre-Dobbs, but those are sort of the most extreme restrictions—pre-Dobbs, what happened in states with trap laws versus states without trap laws. And in states without trap laws, women were much more likely to change their occupations and go into different types of jobs that were higher paid when they lived in states that had more access to reproductive rights. So, we know that it's not just those direct costs, but it also is just changing how women and other people who get pregnant can make decisions and plan for their futures.

Jennie: I love that you brought up the Turnaway Study. If you are interested, we have an episode of the podcast where you can listen to me talk to one of the authors. So, we'll make sure to include that in the show notes. But also you should definitely read the book because there is so much in there—the economic impacts, the more likely to stay with a partner in a violent relationship, like, there are so many negative impacts on people who are not able to get a wanted abortion, that it is really important to have that conversation with the data to back it up that the Turnaway Study was just really groundbreaking in providing.

Kate: Mm-hmm. Was it Diana Greene Foster?

Jennie: It was.

Kate: I only met her once before, but she was very nice.

Jennie: I, so I have a really hard time sometimes and I don't know what it is where my brain flips hyphenated names around all the time. So I always somehow get it reversed in my head, but yes.

Kate: Yeah, yeah, yeah. She's very nice. So, I imagine she'd be a good interview subject. Jennie: She was great. And again, it's so wonderful to talk about that research because it was so groundbreaking and so important to have as we were having these policy conversations.

Kate: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Jennie: Okay, so you know, I really love that other bucket of research that you were talking about of how there are like those indirect impacts and costs that people don't necessarily think about. And I think one of those is—you saw with contraception and it also was with abortion—impacts on educational attainment.

Kate: So, I mean I think this is where we can make this sort of bigger macro story come out as well is, like, we think the American economy is very resilient. People have upward mobility, they can go into sort of unlimited opportunity, but what we know is that's not true. And we know it's not true because sometimes these policy constraints limit people's access to opportunities. And so that is sort of like, you know, I'm an economist, that's like a big story I've been telling for a long time, but thinking about this in the reproductive rights lens as well. And I think education makes that really clear. And so, we think of education as a great equalizer, but when we know that people can't get access to education, it's harder for 'em to complete that education. Maybe they can get accepted to college which they can't finish because they had an unplanned pregnancy. It's not actually a great equalizer. So I think we see that- we think education's such a critical linchpin to move up in the economy, but when certain groups systematically do not have access to education or the ability to complete education, then we're not, it's gonna exacerbate those disparities. And so, for particularly reproductive rights, I think what we find that's really interesting and disheartening is that people who are sort of already marginalized in the economy, particularly Black women or Latina women who already have a harder time getting access to education and completing education are then even more so disproportionately impacted by these restrictions on reproductive rights. And so, there's other great research by Kelly Jones and Mayra Pineda-Torres that looks at the impact of trap laws on high school completion. And it looks at sort of the direct impact on particularly Black women when they are living in a state with trap laws. And that, I mean I'll say that's not even what they were looking at, it's what they found. They found that, you know, Black women who already are facing greater barriers, already more likely to face more financial insecurity just because of the legacy of discrimination. When you have something like trap laws, they're gonna be more impacted by that 'cause they're already sort of in a more fragile economic position. And then when they can't get access to education, it's gonna have worse outcomes and just perpetuate those things like racial gender wage gaps.

Jennie: Yeah, it's one of those things that I've been thinking about. One is we're seeing more abortion bans spreading in states and how that's gonna impact it. But also as we're watching this Title X case working through the courts that may prevent minors from accessing Title X services, like, that is gonna have profound impacts. And I always, when I think of this Title X case and the trying to chip away at minors' access is seeing like this is just what happened with abortion. So, like, really concerning to think that there's gonna be this broader chipping away at the ability to access birth control.

Kate: Mm-hmm. Yeah and that's really critical too. I mean it's like one thing I would also point out about the birth control and abortion conversations that they really need to be had in tandem. And I think, you know, this is another place where I look to research. There's research by Caitlin Knowles Meyer who I think folks who follow research on the economics of reproductive rights are familiar with her 'cause she's done a lot of really good research on abortion. And what she finds in particular is that it's sort of the complementarity between things like birth control pills and abortion that matter because contraception is sort of, it's that first step. It's when you have access to contraception that you think, hey maybe I'll go to college, maybe I'll complete college, maybe I'll get a graduate degree. But it's being able to ensure that that contraception leads to the outcomes you want, that you need to have happen in order to actually realize those plans. And so, the fact of the matter is that while when perfectly used, these methods are wonderful, there is a higher failure rate than people think there might be for some of these birth control methods. And so, if you're on the birth control pill but maybe you missed a few pills, you got pregnant, you need to be able to access an abortion to actually realize those plans you had to finish your college degree, to get an advanced degree. So, you really need both because that is how you ensure that you have control over your reproductive choices. It's not really just one or the other.

Jennie: Absolutely. And you know, I think there's a lot of disingenuousness in some of the conversation that you hear around it. Like, "well, they should have been using birth control" or blah blah blah blah. And it's like, okay, but you're also attacking access to birth control. Like this is all one package in reproductive health. You need all of it.

Kate: Yeah, exactly. They're all part of the same healthcare system. I mean if you think, I'm trying to think of other good healthcare examples like preventative care needed with also acute care. Like, that is how it works in any scenario. Like, we get the flu shot but then we also need Tamiflu if we happen to get the flu. Like, we would never think that it's one or the other. And so, like it's sort of that scenario. But then I think even more broadly we see that in the states that do ban abortion who argue that it's about, you know, families and fertility and then they're not actually providing the supports for those families to be economically secure. So, the states that ban abortion have lower minimum wages. The states that ban abortion don't have access to paid leave. The states that ban abortion have worse maternal mortality outcomes. There's, like, some pretty clear connections there. And this is, and this really matters too. I mean, I think we have to remember that this like free market ideology does not describe the world we work in and what research finds is that financial security is an input to economic mobility. It's not a disincentive to it. And so, I feel like that's a little bit of a wonky economist way to say it. But what I mean is like, you know, research finds that having access to things like anti-poverty programs, while there's this very conservative rhetoric that if you give people, you know, food stamps or access to affordable housing or things like that, then they're gonna be, you know, quote unquote "too lazy to work." In fact, it's quite the opposite. What we find is that when people have better access to those types of anti-poverty programs, they're more likely to be able to go into better jobs, go into higher paying jobs, go into better occupations and have upper mobility and more income growth. And so, the idea that somehow making things harder for people will make them work harder is, like, not actually the truth. That's not how it works in the economy. And so, in these states that say they just think people should take personal responsibility both for their economic outcomes and their family outcomes, they do not provide the infrastructure for that either.

Jennie: Just all of this is, like, thinking through all of the ways that all of this just exacerbates inequality that we see in those who are the most marginalized continue to be those the most impacted and that increases the marginalization and just, like, watching it continue in all of these different spheres and seeing, like you said, these various programs are the ones that are being attacked. You see maternal mortality, again, it's those same people who are being impacted, you know, particularly Black women who are suffering the most with all of this.

Kate: Yeah, definitely. Black women are suffering the most. We also see some of the states like big states like Texas, Latina women being impacted when they have to travel huge distances to get access and often working the types of jobs that have less predictable schedules. So, it's gonna be harder to plan for those things. And so, that's another example of, like, you're working a job with, you're more likely to work a job with a less predictable schedule and you have a harder time accessing healthcare. Latina workers are also the least likely to have access to health insurance across the country. And so, these things are just all reinforcing each other and maintaining those outcomes. And we're also at a moment right now in the American economy where we did have a really remarkable recovery from the COVID pandemic. I mean, I think it's probably considering how deep that recession was, just probably like the most exceptional rapid economic recovery an economist could dream of and that has not solved these problems. Like, market forces themselves are not enough to solve these problems.

Jennie: This is one of those things where you know, you think through, people are thinking through their economic state when they're trying to plan their families and then they have an unintended pregnancy. And so, when they're thinking about costs, that can vary so widely if you're in one of these states where abortion is banned and then you don't have the ability to take time off. So, you have all of these other costs that get added in that make it so much harder for those who have less resources to be able to access the care. Particularly if you're in a state like Texas where you may have to travel quite a long way to be able to access basic healthcare.

Kate: Yeah, I mean there's, I saw someone say really eloquently recently and I'm not gonna be able to repeat it as well, but, like, being poor makes you poor. Because if you couldn't get access to either contraception, if you don't have good health insurance, it's gonna be hard to get access to contraception if you can't see a doctor regularly and then that you're gonna have maybe an unplanned pregnancy, you can't get that medical care easily. And the next thing you know you're spending thousands of dollars to go out of state to get access to healthcare when you don't have those thousands of dollars and you're in an even more precarious position than you were before.

Jennie: Okay. So, I know you had some other buckets of things you wanted to talk about. What are some other things that we should be thinking about in this realm?

Kate: I mean, a few different things. I think what we're also seeing so much is that these attacks on reproductive rights are also the attacks on people who wanna be able to have families and that also has economic costs associated with it. So, the one I'm thinking of particularly is these attacks on IVF that you know, not only like it's just horrifying to think of families who are already in the process of trying to start their family and lose access to that. But there's also economic research that shows that while we know having kids cost money, if you want a kid and you are dealing with infertility, that also costs a lot of money because we don't live in a society that, generally speaking, provides for supports to be able to plan one's own family. And so, it's either there's no insurance coverage for IVF services and so you're spending a crazy amount of money trying to get IVF services out of pocket and having to travel to do that just imposes all these other really high costs on people. Queer couples in particular have a really hard time with this because even in places where you may have some coverage for fertility supports, you have to be able to establish a medical infertility diagnosis, which if you are in a queer couple, you can't establish a medical infertility diagnosis and in ways that sort of also don't necessarily even medically make sense. So for example, a straight couple, if they're trying to have a baby for six months and they're not able to conceive or able to get a diagnosis of infertility, if a queer couple is going through intrauterine insemination for six rounds over six months, they cannot establish infertility at the end of that 'cause it's still would not count for many insurance providers and that might, it's probably not across the board. I mean, I think this is changing somewhat. I know there was an Aetna case recently where they were, you know, their policies were found to be discriminatory against couples. But when you make these sort of even fertility supports so inaccessible, which is what we're seeing happen both in the health insurance system and in the reproductive rights landscape in the states, it costs people a lot of money. And these are people who are trying to be in a financially stable position so that they can have kids and then it's costing them a whole lot of money. And likewise, I mean I think we've heard some really powerful stories along this point, but even people who are trying to have kids and then are facing miscarriage or other complications, it's just like horrifying to me that you go through a devastating, you know, personal circumstance and then also have a hard time accessing medical care and then maybe also have to pay money for that. I mean, I just can't even imagine what would it be like to be going through that and have to travel, going through a miscarriage that is complicated and having to travel to get access to healthcare. So it's sad and then also costs you extra money you should not have to be paying for. So, those are some of the ways that I think, you know, we're still seeing these negative economic costs because of these attacks on reproductive rights to people who want to plan their families in different ways, but also people who wanna have their families right now, they're also facing these extra costs in order to do so.

Jennie: I'm really glad you brought up the IVF stuff. Like, we've done episodes talking or an episode talking about IVF and how it's so out of reach for so many people and I hadn't heard, or if I have, I didn't remember about queer people not being able to get an infertility diagnosis. Like, that's kind of wild to think, like, trying to access care that you clearly need to be able to start your family but not be able to do it in ways that are affordable.

Kate: I know there's a really good piece in the New Yorker by Anna Louie Sussman that would be worth linking to in the show notes about the concept of a social infertility that like why do we only consider infertility when it's like a medical diagnosis versus like just who you are as a person makes you like quote unquote "infertile" via the sort of unassisted routes.

Jennie: I'll make sure that we have that linked.

Kate: Yeah, I love that piece.

Jennie: So, now that we understand a little bit of why we need to think about abortion and reproductive health as an economic thing, I feel like I saw some really good research from y'all recently talking about what this actually costs us as an economy. Can you tell us a little bit about that research?

Kate: Yeah, and so what we know from our own research is that there's a cost to the entire national economy in the US from these attacks on reproductive rights. And in particular what we found in our research that the 16 states that ban abortion are costing the national economy $68 billion a year. And so it's a pretty high amount. But of course you know, there's so much inequality and access between states and so we also have states that are protecting abortion and those states that protect abortion are offsetting this somewhat by 45 billion a year. So, it'd be $45 billion worse if those states didn't take sort of affirmative steps to make sure that people have access. And so, within those states too, there's a lot of research that's been showing how access to reproductive rights impacts women's labor force participation, which is really key to economic growth and vibrancy is to make sure that people can participate in the labor market and states that attack reproductive rights and have abortion bans have much lower levels of women's labor force participation. So, I think we also see that happening that fewer women are just able to participate in the economy when they have attacks on reproductive rights.

Jennie: Those are really big numbers, like, I don't know why it's surprising because again the innateness of like, yeah, if I can't plan when I'm having kids and like, it prevents me from planning my life. Man, hearing those stark numbers is kind of mind boggling.

Kate: It is. And within the states, these can be pretty powerful. When people are working within states as advocates and they can say to policy makers, it costs the state x billion dollars per year because you have these in place that can make you know a difference to some policy makers who otherwise might think that this is an individual issue happening at family levels.

Jennie: Oh man, this makes me think of, do you remember...no, I can't remember exactly when this happened...when Texas, like, completely defunded family planning and like got rid of their Title X program and then they saw all of the costs that happened over the next year and they were like, oh actually, maybe this wasn't a great idea.

Kate: Yeah, it's just an inefficient use of public policy to make things cost more for your state.

Jennie: Yeah, it's amazing, like, all of these layers that get added on of things that maybe you haven't thought about. So, thank you for that.

Kate: Yeah. And then even like, I mean I could go on like this has been like a pet peeve of mine is about access to fertility treatments. Even companies that are trying to do the right thing and offer supplementary fertility benefits, like a really popular company is called Carrot. Those typically are somewhat limited, maybe $10,000. So, if you're someone who's a straight couple who's just looking for maybe a couple rounds of IUI, but you have access to the basic things you need, more or less, versus a queer couple who doesn't have that and can't get medical insurance coverage for any piece of it. So, even things like the medications you would take to trigger ovulation for IUI, you can't get access to that or if you're a straight person you can, and if you're a queer person you can't, you're paying for so much more of it that even those for supplemental fertility benefits are insufficient, they really only work for straight couples who are facing lower costs in the first place. Versus couples who are facing higher costs in the first place have to also pay more for the services. That's another way that these inequalities just intersect again and again, that even the supports we have just are insufficient for the higher costs born by queer couples.

Jennie: And infertility treatment itself is already just so expensive.

Kate: Yeah, it is. It's crazy.

Jennie: Okay, so now that we've gotten a pretty good idea of some of the problems we're seeing, what are some of the things that we can do for solutions? I know it's very complicated because economics and, like, policy changes and all the things, but what are some of the things that you're thinking of right now?

Kate: I think one reason that I think economic research on this is really important is partly how you get advocates involved and advocates also outside the reproductive justice space. I think that's pretty critical to this. So, for example, labor unions care about workers a lot. That's what they should do. And if you can make the case to labor unions that the reproductive rights framework within the states that they have members is a worker rights issue, you can get them on board, you can get them to lobby their elected officials, you can get their membership to vote certain ways, then that makes a big difference. And I think that’s, and unions is not the only party, but that's just I think a really clear example of this research is critical convincing those people who maybe kind of care about reproductive rights but it's not their central issue. For unions, it shouldn't be their central issue should be worker rights. But if you can say, but this is part of worker rights, then you can get them to move on that behalf. And same thing, there's a lot of policy makers who economics is the most important thing for them. I mean also in any election we hear economics is the most important issue. If you can make that case really clear, then I think that that helps move people to recognize that this is an issue that they need to put in the center. Jennie: I love that you brought up unions. One I was raised in like a broader union family, but two, we did an episode, oh God, maybe last year talking to a labor lawyer talking about ways to get your union to engage for abortion coverage for them to fight for abortion coverage for you. So, like there are lots of unique ways you can work to get unions involved.

Kate: Yeah, exactly. And unions are a big political force. I mean even with the overall level of unionization having declined in the US, we also know that we win elections by raising thin margins and so unions are still a really big block enough to sway elections. And so, I think they are still a big partner across social issues.

Jennie: And I forget this is probably pretty much kind of similar answer, but I always love to end with things that our audience can do. Like, what can our audience do to help? Maybe it's just to help spread the message or to engage on some of these issues.

Kate: It's a good question. Yeah, this one I have to think about, like, what can a regular person do? I think, you know, we are in a moment right now where it's really hard to get federal legislation passed and so people being politically engaged at their local and state level is really key, particularly if they're in states that do have attacks on reproductive rights. I think another way individuals can get involved is donating to abortion funds. One thing that we found, which is really interesting, is that abortion rates have actually gone up since Dobbs and it seems to be because there's been funding for abortion funds. And so, what that tells me is that there is an unmet demand for abortion prior to Dobbs, but people could not access it financially. And then when they gave them the access to financial supports for abortion, they were able to seek those services that they already wanted but just couldn't access. That being said, as there's been sort of a little less attention on this, you know, the funding going to abortion funds is likely getting not as high as it was initially. And so, if we wanna be able to make sure that people have the access to the supports they need to get those services they're demanding, continuing to support abortion funds is pretty key.

Jennie: And I will always add my usual flag when talking about funding abortion funds. If you are able to spread whatever amount you were thinking of giving and making it a monthly donation, even if it means you're, you know, $10 a month, $5 a month, they know that that's money they can count on month to month and it helps them be able to plan. So, if you were able to, you know, let's say you were gonna make a $50 donation today, maybe do five dollars a month, that would make a huge difference to them because then they know that they are getting that $5 every month and as they're budgeting and trying to plan for patients' access, they know they're gonna have that money.

Kate: Yeah, exactly the same thing they say on NPR, actually.

Jennie: Exactly. And I also think this is another one of those areas that like, because the conversation and, like, understanding how reproductive health and rights is such a personal stakes and, like, how you understand innately the economics and why it matters, like, having those conversations with people to help them make those connections is always helpful.

Kate: Yeah, and I think another way that this is like another audience or community organizer recommendation too is that empowering people to talk about these issues as economic issues with authority, I think is key because they're going out in their community members, they're maybe talking to their local politicians they’re talking to other advocates. So, if people feel empowered to do that and make those arguments, I think it's gonna just help the whole broad movement.

Jennie: Well Kate, thank you so much for being here. It was so much fun talking to you today.

Kate: Thank you so much for having me. It was great.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Kate. I really had a wonderful time talking to her about economics and abortion and reproductive health. It was a nice conversation and I am looking forward to talking to you all again for a SCOTUS preview episode. Ugh, I can't believe it's that time already. So that's what we have coming next week and I will see you all next week. [music outro] If you have any questions, comments, or topics you would like us to cover, always feel free to shoot me an email. You can reach me at jennie@reprosfightback.com or you can find us on social media. We're at @RePROsFightBack on Facebook and Twitter or @reprosfb on Instagram. If you love our podcast and wanna make sure more people find it, take the time to rate and review us on your favorite podcast platform. Or if you wanna make sure to support the podcast, you can also donate on our website at reprosfightback.com. Thanks all!