Can One Fringe Judge Really Eliminate Medication Abortion in the US?

Medication abortion is safer than Tylenol, and it’s certainly safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. So why is there a case out of Texas that claims medication abortion is dangerous and must be banned? Jessica Mason Pieklo, Senior Vice President and Executive Editor at Rewire News Group and Co-Host of the Boom! Lawyered podcast, sits down to talk with us about the frivolous framework of this case and how it threatens nationwide access to abortion pills.

The Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine v. The FDA is out of the northern district of Texas, where anti-abortion advocates are arguing that, 20 years after the fact that the Food and Drug Administration has ruled on the safety and efficacy of mifepristone (one of two drugs used in a medication abortion), the drug is in fact dangerous and must be pulled from the market. This case sits in front of Judge Matthew Kacsmaryk, a Trump-appointed judge who has a vast history of anti-LGBTQ+, anti-reproductive health and rights rulings, including blocking contraception access for Texas teens under the Title X program on the grounds of parental religious objection.

This case has the potential to reach into abortion-protective states by prohibiting the FDA from keeping the drug on the market, meaning your location in California, Washington, New York, or other like-minded states will not protect you from this direct attack on medication abortion. The introduction and legitimization of this case creates confusion about the status of abortion access in one’s state, leading many to not feel that they can access care. There is also a likelihood that the FDA can ignore this ruling and be within their rights to do so; the FDA’s enforcement power is discretionary and has the power itself to approve and remove drugs from the market—a power that federal courts do not hold. Anti-abortion advocacy groups are also attempting to block abortion providers (using intentionally vague language) like Plan C, Aid Access, and Choix, from providing abortion or even education about or advocating for abortion.

Links from this episode

Jessica Mason Pieklo on Twitter
Rewire News Group on Twitter
Rewire News Group on Facebook
FDA Just Made it Easier to Access Medication Abortion Podcast
The Texas judge who could take down the abortion pill
Boom! Lawyered: Big Pharma Could Save One of the Abortion Pills (Yikes!)Keep Our Clinics
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Welcome to this week's episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. So y'all, I'm gonna be honest, it's been a, um, really hard, rough stretch, uh, in the last bit since, uh, my last episode. Actually even before you heard the last episode. My dad passed away unexpectedly on February 17th. It's, it was, like I said, unexpected, so I was lucky, luckily able to fly home immediately to spend time with my mom. I was in Wisconsin for, I don't know, maybe 10 days. Um, and we were able to, you know, look through pictures of my dad and share lots of memories and, uh, laughs and, and things, but still struggling a little bit. But that's okay. You know, grief kind of comes in waves. He was a really good person and a really good guy. Um, you know, when I think back through things like that, I, I think of when I was little. I wanted to play soccer at my, uh, Catholic elementary school. And we didn't have anybody to coach our team. And my dad knew nothing, nothing about soccer. Um, but he volunteered to coach and he went out and, and bought books and watched videos to learn, learn about soccer, and learn how to coach. And, uh, he coached our little team when I was, I don't know, I wanna say maybe like in second or third grade or something like that, just because he knew I wanted to do it. Uh, it was, it was a lot of the little things I think of, I think of, um, my mom had to work one weekend and I don't know, I was probably maybe around that same age, like second or third grade, and mom's like, “here, I will leave this can of tuna for you all and you can make tuna sandwiches for lunch.” And I said, okay. And y'all, nobody's told me how to do it or what I needed to do. So I just did what I thought. And, you know, dumped the can in a bowl and mixed it with, uh, with, with mayonnaise and made, made the sandwiches. Nobody, nobody told me you were supposed to drain the water out of it. How was I supposed to know? But my dad, he just sat there and ate it and didn't say a word. And, uh, I didn't know I did anything wrong until my mom came home and she's like, “did you drain this?” And obviously, I mean, no, how would I know I was supposed to do that again? He just was full of kindness and happy with, you know, whatever. Uh, he was very quiet and, and very witty. Uh, you would kind of, uh, not forget he is there, but just not necessarily think he was listening to everything, cuz like, like I said, he was very quiet. Now, again, my mother and I are both pretty talkative and, you know, maybe, maybe he had less opportunity to talk, but he, he was pretty reserved. And then, all of a sudden he'd come out with this like really witty comment and, uh, would make everybody laugh. He was really smart. He was an engineer. Uh, he worked in aviation and then later in environmental controls, he has a couple patents. One, he designed the throttle control system for the lunar rover that is on the moon. You know, the story goes that he, he had questions about his design and, and said that it wasn't gonna work. And he was, you know, pushed that, no, it'll be fine. And, and he was unsure and he was with my mom, and they were watching the, the moon landing, and then it wouldn't start. And he was so mad, so frustrated, it finally started and, and worked fine. But he was so frustrated that he, he wasn't able to get it perfect.

Jennie: I had so much fun, uh, when I moved out to Washington DC, I was able to go with them, with my, with my parents, but I was really excited to go with my dad to the Air and Space Museum annex. So it's out by Dulles. It's bigger than the one on the mall. And, you know, I knew my dad worked on, on helicopters. I, I knew he did a lot of work on them. He did some work on, um, on Marine One. He did some, he used to investigate, um, helicopter crashes during the Vietnam War. I knew he knew a lot about the helicopters and, and that he used to do stuff on them. What I had no idea until I walked around the Air and Space Museum with him is that he had also worked on fixed wing aircrafts. And it was so fascinating to walk around. He'd be like, “oh, yeah, no, I did work on this.” Or, “oh, yeah, no, I did work on this.” And it was just so delightful to learn more. Again, that really quiet man who just didn't necessarily share things, it was really nice to get that opportunity to, to learn more. Yeah, I'm gonna miss him. Um, but like I said, it was nice to be able to share memories and spend time with my mom. Yeah, like I said, still, still kind of processing and, and working through all of the things. It was also very weird. My, my birthday was, um, immediately after I got back to Washington, DC it's on, on March 1st, and it just, it, it felt complicated and weird. And how do you celebrate at a time like this? And yeah, it's just weird. But I am so, so grateful for my community that I have around me. I had so many amazing friends reaching out to me and checking in on me and sending me thoughtful notes or flowers, or I had, um, a wonderful group of friends that I work with send soup, and it was just so much amazing community sending out their love. And it was, um, just really grateful. So thank you to all of them for being there.

Jennie: Okay, y'all, uh, let's move on to, uh, happier things. Um, but I just felt that I needed to share. Okay. So this week is, there is, uh, Abortion Provider Appreciation Day. It is March 10th. Uh, so make sure to thank your local abortion provider. Um, we'll share, there's a toolkit with, uh, things you can do and tweets, uh, and things like that that you can share to make sure that you are showing love for abortion providers in this really hard time. Yeah. With that, let's move to this week's interview. Uh, I am so lucky to have one of my favorite people on here, uh, Jessica Pieklo with Rewire News Group, and host of the amazing podcast that I hope you are all listening to. Boom! Lawyered. Um, I have Jess on to talk about the case in Texas that is challenging mifepristone's FDA approval. Now just to be clear, we recorded this on Thursday, March 2nd, so things could have changed. At the time we recorded, we do not have the decision yet that could change between now and when this airs on Tuesday. So just, uh, putting that out there, we're talking about what may happen. So the, the status could have changed in the meantime, but, uh, all the information should still be accurate and the same. And with that, let's go to my conversation with Jess.

Jennie: Hi, Jess. Thank you so much for being here.

Jessica: Oh, thank you so much for having me back. It's always such a pleasure.

Jennie: I always love having you on. And I feel like before we start this one, we need to be clear that like we're recording this on Thursday, March 2nd at 1 pm, we are talking about a court case that we could have, have a decision on by the time this airs.

Jessica: Absolutely.

Jennie: Um, but I guess maybe we should do, Jess, would you like to introduce yourself real quick before we dive in?

Jessica: Oh, sure. Hi everyone. I'm Jessica Mason Pieklo, uh, Senior Vice President and Executive Editor at Rewire News Group and co-host of the Boom! Lawyered podcast.

Jennie: And if y'all aren't listening, you definitely should. I do for sure. Before I recorded this, I made sure to go back and re-listen to the episode that where you talked about the case, so I could just get an extra refresher to be ready.

Jessica: Oh, thank you. Yeah, my co-host Imani Gandy and I have a lot of fun when it, uh, comes to this particular judge in general. But let me be clear, there's nothing fun about what conservatives are trying to do to medication abortion and access to abortion pills in this country.

Jennie: Okay. So let's start there. Like, what, what is going on? Like, what is this court case outta Texas?

Jessica: So we have, what is, I mean there's no other way to describe it, but a political attack through the federal courts on medication abortion access nationwide. The Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine versus the FDA is a lawsuit that was filed in the northern district of Texas. It's front of, uh, judge Matthew Kasmaryck. And, uh, it is functionally, what we on Boom! Lawyered called AstroTurf litigation. It is a challenge by a group of advocacy plaintiffs, uh, that was, they have a mailing address in Tennessee, but they incorporated in, uh, in the northern district of Texas a month before they filed the lawsuit, which is super convenient. You know, just, I'm sure coincidence, you know, things move fast. I bet they had a lot going on. At any rate, they incorporated, filed a lawsuit, and they are arguing that 20 plus years after the fact, the Food and Drug Administration ruled on its safety and efficacy, that they rushed to market mifepristone, which is one of two medications used in the United States in a medication abortion, uh, protocol. And that it is, uh, as a drug safe and dangerous and needs to be pulled from the market.

Jennie: Well, that all sounds, you know, very simple and like true, right? Like it's definitely, I've heard so much about medication abortion being unsafe.

Jessica: You know, as I said from the outset, it is, it's a political attack on medication abortion. It is also using abortion as a way to further attack the, uh, administrative and regulatory state, uh, writ large. I mean, one of the things I think that's important to realize with the conservative legal movement is they like to use abortion to get to other things that they are going after as well. In this case, the power of the, of the Food and Drug Administration to approve and regulate a wide class of drugs, generally. So this isn't, so this is once again, not just about abortion. We have abortion being used, um, and abortion patients caught in the crossfire while legal conservatives are looking to dismantle the Food and Drug Administration.

Jennie: It's also wild, like 20 years later, like it has been approved for 20 years, right? Like, that feels like that should not be, like, you can't challenge it was a rushed decision 20 years later.

Jessica: I remember when things like statute of limitations mattered standing for injuries and claims mattered. These are all legal concepts that were designed to prevent very seriously what the Le Law and legal profession considered frivolous, uh, lawsuits, nonsense lawsuits, political larks that the courts would be caught up in. And that is exactly where we find ourselves in large part thanks to the Dobbs decision. But really, I mean, it, it's been a campaign moving up to it at this point. And so, yeah, I mean, the claims on its face are absurd. Let's just take the 20 plus years mifepristone has been on the market now and use this part of a medication, uh, abortion regime in that time. There have been minuscule amounts of reportable incidents of harm, right? It is as, um, folks will hear repeated in court filings, and as advocates talk about this medication, abortion, mifepristone is routinely safer to take than Tylenol, and it is certainly safer than carrying a pregnancy to term. So just in terms of like level setting, that's where we're at. But really you would think that if there was a lot of danger around this drug that we would've heard from it by, uh, before. Now conservatives have an answer to that. Um, what they do in their legal filings is point to a petition. Uh, a letter that they had filed that some, uh, conservatives had filed two years previously with the Food and Drug Administration that was functionally making the same claims now, which is so laying the groundwork for this lawsuit, basically, where they said, “Hey, look, we think this is a dangerous drug and you need to pull it off the market.” And the FDA said, “thank you for your input. We won't be doing that.” And so they didn't like that opinion. Um, or, or you know, that result from the Food and Drug Administration. It's important to note where they filed this lawsuit, right? We are in the Northern District of Texas in Amarillo, in front of Judge Matthew Kasmaryck, who has a history not just as a judge of very harsh anti-choice, anti-reproductive health and justice rulings… I mean, this is the judge who has blocked contraception access for teens in Texas under the Title 10 program on the grounds that their parents have religious objections to it... Uh, the parent's objection, as was reported in, you know, the Washington Post, had a very good writeup on this shows he has deep, deep ties to the anti-choice community. I mean, he was functionally a Trump judge that was appointed to issue the kinds of rulings we are starting to see from him. So, you know, uh, it used to be that lawsuits would happen and you'd think there'd be a, like, robust conversation of the law, and that just, that's not where we are anymore in the abortion landscape.

Jennie: Man, I totally forgot about that title ten one then that he was the judge on that Title 10 case. And that was just very recently appealed.

Jessica: Yeah! Yeah. So the Biden administration has just recently appealed that decision and it will now like, work its way through the Fifth Circuit. But yeah, they advocate again in another piece of AstroTurf litigation filed, uh, a direct attack on, um, reproductive health rights and access, um, before him. So we have a pretty good sense of what he's gonna do in this case.

Jennie: So I think there has been, especially, particularly since the fall of Roe, this sense of “I live in a blue state, like I, I'll be fine.”

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: And like “I'm protected. Like I don't have to worry about this.” But this case is, makes it very clear that that's not the case.

Jessica: Yeah. The, so one of the alarming parts of this case, I mean, it's all alarming, but truly is that this ruling that conservatives seek has the potential to reach into abortion protected states right now. That one of the reasons is that they're requesting a nationwide injunction that would prohibit the FDA from continuing to keep the drug on the market. And that would have the effect if it is allowed to take in impact and the Biden administration… like there's a lot of ifs that need to happen, but if the ifs happen, then it would mean that people who live in states like Colorado where I am, or California or New York, that have, you know, uh, made, uh, efforts to either expand or shore up access and have access to medication abortion within their, their borders that we would be unable to access it as well. So it is one way that conservatives are looking to implement a nationwide abortion ban. So don't believe them ever, if you did, when they said that they wanted to send the issue of abortion back to the states, they want to send the issue of abortion back to the states until they can send it back up to the federal level in a friendly posture to them.

Jennie: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, that was clear really quickly as the House and Senate Republicans were like looking to pass national bans.

Jessica: Mm-hmm.

Jennie: Like, so the FDA has 20 years of this... Can the Biden administration just be like, screw this?

Jessica: Right, right. So, you know, this is, um, one, there's a lot to be concerned about with this case. Um, a ruling from Judge Kasmaryck that says, uh, mifepristone stone is unsafe, The FDA acted beyond its authority in approving it, and the drug needs to, um, be pulled from the market in and of itself is dangerous even if it's not, uh, implemented because it is creating a foundation within the law that those things are true. And up is down now at that point. Okay? So like just, no matter what happens in terms of implementation, that is part of the danger, it also creates confusion. It chills people's rights. We all, we know that folks are already very confused about whether or not abortion is legal, where they live, how they can access it, what they need to do to get access of it. All of this stuff that creates confusion around, um, our rights is absolutely part of the strategy now, but where the rubber meets the road, what can actually happen here, there is a very good argument that the Food and Drug Administration could ignore this ruling and be well within its rights to do so. And there are a couple different pathways. In fact, David Cohen and a couple other scholars have an excellent piece in Slate Magazine that was published that I would really encourage folks to, to Google and find, because they, they really lay out the argument well. But basically, federal agencies have enforcement power and like, um, all enforcement power is discretionary, right? We talk about prosecutorial discretion. Sometimes the cops can't or won't pull certain folks over, right? Like, same thing here. There is a whole swath of drugs that exists on the market right now that does not have FDA approval or has, you know, is in that gray zone that the FDA could choose to use its enforcement authority and yank from the market. The FDA can do the opposite here and say, we are choosing to not do that. There's a ton of reliance interests in keeping the medication on the market. In fact, biotech firms have filed their own claims to say, “knock this off, this is like really ridiculous.” Um, so that's one possibility. The FDA itself also in its charter has discretion and power to approve and remove drugs. Federal courts do not have the power to approve and remove drugs from the marketplace. They can say that the FDA has to do things, but it's ultimately the FDA that has that power. So it has to decide as an agency what to do here. So there is reason to think that there, that the administration can and absolutely should maneuver around whatever decision comes out of the northern district of Texas will. It is an open question.

Jennie: This just like gives me just like chills thinking about this cuz like, I know you touched on this earlier that it's broader than just abortion, but you know, as you were talking I was just thinking through like, oh man, I can just see they're gonna start coming for any sort of gender affirming care. And drugs used with that. Like I just see this having such huge impacts on all of these issues that the right is really attacking right now.

Jessica: Yeah. I mean, it is really important that we have this conversation and the same breath as we talk about the attempts to criminalize, um, gender affirming care in states across the country in efforts to elevate that legislation nationwide because they are part and parcel of the same attacks just writ large in criminalizing healthcare.

Jennie: Ugh. I just kind of feel like everything is terrible right now. Sorry y'all, I'm a little bit of a Debbie downer today. This is all bad. What kinda impacts would this have if, if the judge does make this decision and the FDA doesn't act?

Jessica: Yeah, I mean, to be clear, we don't know. We, things are very uncertain right now. Um, I would be surprised if the FDA was like, yep, pull all the drugs from the market right away. Like that's just not how things work usually. But also we are completely in the upside down. So I don't wanna instill any false confidence in anyone. The fact that it is uncertain is in enough in and of itself, um, troubling. I will say though, to, you know, it's not a perfect response, but it is really important that, um, we are in uncharted waters in good ways as well, in the sense that the response building up to the Dobbs decision and absolutely after Dobbs from direct aid groups, from folks who understand in very like community centric, uh, ways how to get folks either to care or how to get care to folks is, uh, robust. And there is a, um, what I would just say, uniform sense that no matter what Judge Kasmaryck decides folks will do what they need to do to make sure care continues.

Jennie: Yeah. And I think before we touch on the direct access groups, cuz there is another vein of attack that we're seeing on that. It's talking about, you know, this is a targeting one of the two drugs used in medication abortion and around the world. And it's also a WHO approved method is to use misoprostol only. So there, there are alternatives and you're already seeing some providers talking that they're ready to switch regimens and that the misoprostol only, uh, medication abortion is almost just as effective. And there seems like, you know, maybe like there could just be some skews and data, but like, it's almost just as effective as the current regimen that we're using. So there may be some time to make that switch. But like there are approved methods that we can use even if we lose access to mifepristone.

Jessica: Yes, absolutely. And, you know, um, it's, it's such a critical point. And also we don't know what losing access to mife means. Right? Um, it takes a while for a drug to come off the market and I, uh, mentioned a couple lawsuits by the manufacturers of these medications who have actual reliance interests in them being, uh, remaining on the market. You know, it's weird to be rooting for big pharma in this interest, in any interest, but particularly here. But really they do. The pharmaceutical companies do have, um, a very strong legal argument that this is ridiculous. Um, in addition to very damaging for economic reasons, it'll be, it'll be curious to see which the conservative federal courts, um, side with, if they, you know, love capitalism more than they hate abortion or vice versa. I mean that's really forcing them to choose. So cynical and dark, I apologize everybody.

Jennie: I know, but like, also like man that dunno where they come down on that one.

Jessica: Yeah. And, and there is the lawsuit also that was filed by the Democratic Attorney's General that was at the very end of last week that also targets the Food and Drug Administration, but from the other end that says, “Hey, FDA, the restrictions that you have on mife and on medication abortion are too onerous. They don't match the data. They are too restrictive. You need to lift them. So clearly the FDA and medication abortion is fully the center of where the post abortion fights in the courts is concentrated.

Jennie: Yeah. And if y'all wanna learn more about those restrictions, I have a great episode with Greer Donnley talking about, uh, the REMS restrictions around mife and how the Biden administration recently changed them. Still not as loose as we would like, but, uh, better. And I think that gets into the like why medication abortion is such a target. Because like you can't, people can get it and not have to go to a clinic where there's protestors and like it's starting to break some of that hold that, uh, the anti-abortion groups have had of like intimidating people in person.

Jessica: Absolutely. I mean, you don't put that genie back in the bottle, do you? Right. No. If you can order pills online, if you can have a text conversation with a provider as questions come up while you are in the process of managing your own abortion, then there is functionally no way for the anti-choice movement, absent person-to-person terrorism, which is the point of the bounty provision in bills like Texas's SB8 for example. Absent that person-to-person harassment, um, direct in your community, there's no way to control it. And they know that that's why. I mean that's, that's why Josh Hawley's wife is part of the legal team involved in this lawsuit outta Texas.

Jennie: Okay. I think the next thing that we need to talk to is those direct access groups. Cause now they are starting to be targets. We saw legislation introduced in Texas this week and I've lost all sense of time y'all, um, trying to block website access to groups like Plan C and Aid Access.

Jessica: Yep. Yeah. It's, uh, so, you know, Americans United for Life, the national advocacy organization puts out model legislation every year, um, that they hope gets picked up in the states. And this was one of their, um, you know, sort of like piece de resistance after Dobbs, um, is really going on an information warfare tip. And this is, uh, as you said, uh, it would block, um, the, what they call, you know, “abortion provider websites”, but the language is very vague. It could, it could block even, um, reported potentially reporting around the activities of groups like Plan C and Choix and Aid Access, for example.

Jennie: Oh, I didn't see that.

Jessica: It depends on how you read it. I mean, so, but, but these groups are specifically identified in this Texas legislation and they literally want to block to, to erase them from the internet in Texas if they, if they could. Iowa has picked this up and because it is part of, because Iowa's version is, is part of its copycat version of Texas's SB8, this bounty hunter provision that that was, that, you know, um, overruled Roe on the shadow docket, uh, Iowa allows private citizens to sue if they find out that somehow somebody has accessed this information. We've completely crossed the Rubicon. Um, but I think it speaks to the fear really. Um, you know, uh, it's always been a fear-based and fear-driven movement, but the really, the amplification around that. And that's, you know, I mean we can sort of chuckle about that, but that's also concerning because when folks act in such fear-based places, that's where we see amplifications around you know, real violence and threats. Um, people are just kind of losing their minds around it. But, um, what we know about Texas anti-abortion antics is what happens in Texas never stays in Texas. And so we can expect this to be the, the, you know, this kind of legislation to be, um, very popular in other abortion gerrymandered states like Arkansas and South Dakota and Missouri. Um, Missouri may have already even tried something like this. I, but I could be speaking outta turn there if I am. I apologize, Missouri.

Jennie: Uh, yeah, this I'll just makes me think of like trying to block access to information in general for so many things, right? Like, not wanting kids to have access to sex ed, like all of the things.

Jessica: Yes. And it reminds me what I was gonna say because we, it actually is, um, really tied into this lawsuit, the Alliance for Hippocratic Medicine that we were talking about originally, because the basis of their claims, um, also relies on the Comstock Act. And the Comstock Act is this law from the 1800s. And, Rewire News Group is gonna run a piece on Anthony Comstock, uh, in mid-March that I'm very proud of. Uh, so I'll send it along to you. But, you know, Anthony Comstock and the Comstock Act made it, uh, prohibited sharing information and it of its of lewd materials. And this was designed to target, um, birth control information, uh, abortion services prohibit all sorts of in information around reproductive health, uh, and, uh, and access. Anthony Comack was a civil worker, who wanted to heal the broken men of the South. Um, and believed it was all of the sex that they had and all of the drugs they were doing and all of the liquor that they were drinking. I don’t know why it’s always the sex and, I don't know, not the, like karmic and generational harm, something like chattel slavery and…

Jennie: Was the sex. No, no, no. It's the sex.

Jessica: It was the sex. And so Anthony Comstock is here again in the year of our Lord 2023, directing how social conservatives do policy. And it is really, truly about block access to information once we've blocked access to care and information.

Jennie: Okay. So this is totally unrelated, um, but it's like going around my head and I have to share it cause it is like my favorite piece of information I learned in the not too distant, uh, past, uh, I was listening to a podcast and they were talking about Griswold v Connecticut and they were talking about the original law. Yeah. Do you know who was instrumental in writing the original law that was challenged under Griswold?

Jessica: Who? Anthony Comstock?

Jennie: No, no. P.T. Barnum.

Jessica: Oh, get out. How did I, I feel ashamed of my own knowledge.

Jennie: I almost fell over when I heard that. I'm like, I'm sorry, PT Barnum as in the circus person. What? Yeah, he was, a state legislator Yeah. And wrote that law.

Jessica: So it really is all a circus.

Jennie: I know. Exactly.

Jessica: Oh god. It's like now my favorite new piece of trivia cuz it really just like blew my mind. Well, yeah, I'm like embarrassed for myself. First of all, I, I apologize everybody, Jess Pieklo will do better in the future.

Jennie: Okay. Sorry. Everything's a circus, had to share.

Jessica: That's great. I'm gonna, I'm gonna use that with attribution, right?

Jennie: I was like, how did I not know this? And now I need to tell everybody because I was Oh, yes. I love that. So delightfully shocked. Okay. So like, everything's bad and I feel like there's like whack-a-mole of trying to stop all the horrible things of different ways that, uh, access to abortion is being challenged. Like, what do we need to do to like fight to protect access? Like, it just feels like it's being challenged on so many different fronts right now. Like what are some of the like big picture things we need to be thinking about?

Jessica: Yeah. Well, I mean it's, it, it's hard to feel and think like big picture when everything's coming from all sides, right? Yeah. Um, and so I think, you know, particularly when it's chaotic, one of the things that Imani and I try to tell and remind our listeners is that everybody does have a lane and your lane is not gonna be the same as everybody else's. And that's okay. So don't like feel weird or anxious or, you know, try not to about it. Be very kind with yourself. Um, in terms of what lane you find yourself in right now, I have been really encouraging folks to work within their local communities because this is abortion access is a community access issue and we, the courts are not gonna save us. Lawmakers are not gonna save us. We are gonna save ourselves. And so we first and foremost do that in our neighborhoods and in our local communities. So those are your direct aid groups. Those are, you know, truly, if you are somebody who wants to be, um, running for office, look for your local elections first. Because if you, I mean, all you have to do is look at the attacks on our, uh, schools right now to see how important it is. Having strong allies on school boards, for example, what that really does in terms of pushing back, because look, you don't get to the attack on trans kids in schools without a 10 year campaign on, on, um, sex ed curricula in public schools also. Right? Like, if folks don't understand how sexual health works generally, then it is so much easier to bring the attacks that we have now. So really driving into those local spaces. Not to say that the national's not important because it is, but if folks are feeling like really particularly like, “oh, this is bad and I wanna do something now” there's a dopamine hit I think that that is different when you're in your space, um, than, you know, sending a, sending a check to a national org or you know, calling your senator or representative's office. All of those things are important, but truly like this is right now about, you know, being defiant and joyfully so when possible in our backyards.

Jennie: Yes, absolutely. It's always nice because then you can get engaged with your community in so many other ways. Finding out more about those issues and like the states are where so much of the stuff is happening. That is really important to be paying attention to your local… I mean, I just came from Wisconsin and was home for, there's a big Supreme Court, uh, Wisconsin State Supreme Court election. I was there for the primary, uh, mom went and made sure to vote. And uh, that is coming up the big election in April. So if you're in Wisconsin, make sure you are getting out in voting. Not only is it huge for abortion rights, but it is huge for any number of pro-democracy issues. Um, so like finding things like that, that are happening in your state are also a great way to be stay involved.

Jessica: Yeah.

Jennie: I just, it does, it just feels so overwhelming and it, it's really helpful to not think you need to do all the things like I mean I always, I'm terrible at that. I feel like I need to be always be doing more and doing all the things, but like that's not the way, that's not the way to take care of yourself and it's not the way to be helpful long term.

Jessica: I'm always like, there needs to be more, there needs to be more. But I think also that's part of the overwhelm, right? Like if folks feel overwhelmed then they just disengage cuz it's too much. And frankly, it's too much. It all of this is too much for, for regular folks, let alone folks like you and I who are in this space all the time, folks who listen to this podcast, if you're listening to this podcast, you obviously care very deeply about this issue. Um, I, you know, I guarantee you're overwhelmed as well. It's, it's a lot for the, the whole space.

Jennie: Yeah. I, I've been really careful about thinking through like where my lanes are and like what, what is best for me. And so like, I know the ones I always struggle with is when there's like the big in-person things, like I always feel like I need to go, but I've noticed that like the big in-person things gimme a lot of anxiety. And like, nope, drawing my line, not going. And like it's okay.

Jessica: It is okay.

Jennie: So like, finding those things that you can be like, you know what, that's not what I'm gonna do.

Jessica: Exactly. Exactly.

Jennie: And maybe it's wearing, you know, my, I have the “fund abortion y'all” shirt that looks like the Waffle House sign. Wearing that when I fly home to the Midwest. Right? Like, it's just like the little things you can do too.

Jessica: You know, given the role that abortion stigma plays in maintaining and pushing and all like, just it like as the foundation for where we are right now, those are real acts of resistance every day.

Jennie: And they're so important. Well, Jess, uh, I guess we will wait with a bated breath for the decision. I don't know, I guess maybe we didn't touch on, or I have forgotten already, which happens. What's the next step? So like if this decision comes down, then yeah, I'm sure it'll be appealed, but like

Jessica: Yeah, so we're talking Texas, which means, um, we would uh, uh, so regardless, like let's say Matt Kasmaryck has an unusually good day as far as repro advocates are concerned and decides that this is not gonna be the decision that defines his career as a political stooge. He's gonna save that for later. Um, but we get a good decision. We know for sure the anti-choice groups would appeal that instantaneously to the Fifth Circuit. And the Fifth Circuit would almost certainly oblige whatever requests that they made. Um, but so logistically we we're waiting on a, on a ruling. Um, and depending on what that ruling says, um, we can, you know, we'll, we'll have some answers in terms of what it means for the FDA and mife and for folks across the board in terms of access, um, and how the Biden administration's gonna respond. Then the decision will be appealed up to the Fifth Circuit, get to the decision, um, and up to the Supreme Court potentially at some point. You know, I mean there's, there are a lot of different ways that this is, that this could go, but I would be surprised if advocates weren't really trying to use this one to go all the way to the Supreme Court.

Jennie: Yeah. That all gives me heartburn.

Jessica: I'm so sorry.

Jennie: There's like no good news in any of that.

Jessica: I continue to just really re like go back to the advocates and, um, activists in the spaces that are done on the ground. Folks care and knowing how smart and how, um, resilient, and I hate that folks have to continue to be so resilient, but I'm grateful for the resiliencies. I, you know, it, it is not ideal, but I continue to just, my heart breaks with the place that we're in. Know that there are very smart, good people doing everything they can to deliver care and, um, that's where I need to be focusing my attention and efforts.

Jennie: Yeah. Agree. All of the people on the ground have been giving me so much hope.

Jessica: Yes.

Jennie: Well, Jess, as always, it is a delight to talk to you. Thank you for doing this.

Jessica: Oh, it's my pleasure. I hope there is a time when we can have a conversation on this show and I'm not like, we'll see it's bad and then it gets worse. Oh, and oh by the way, it'll only get worse from there. I really do. And you know, um, I do. And you know, while I can just thank you to the advocates and folks on the ground right now doing that work because, um, you know, here in Colorado I know that we're experiencing, um, just a flood of folks from our neighboring states coming in and uh, you know, there's not a day that goes by that I'm not just really in awe of the power of our community.

Jennie: Yes. And, uh, when this episode comes out, I'm gonna forget the date... Abortion Provider Appreciation Day is that week. So make sure to thank your local abortion provider for all their amazing work.

Jessica: Absolutely.

Jennie: All right, Jess, thank you.

Jessica: Thank you as always.

Jennie: Okay y'all, I hope you enjoyed my conversation with Jess. I had a wonderful time talking to her. As always. She is just so smart and it's always wonderful to get, uh, someone who understands the law and the legal end much better than I do on to talk about these issues.

Jennie: Thanks for listening everyone. And we'll see you on our next episode of RePROS Fight Back. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at RePROS Fight Back, or on Instagram at reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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