Bonus Pod: Storytellers Tell Us Why Today’s SCOTUS Case Matters

The Supreme Court case June Medical Services vs. Russo is being argued today, March 4th, 2020. Dr. Nisha Verma, an OB-GYN and abortion provider, and Stephanie Goodell, a patient treated by Dr. Verma, share their story. Another storyteller, Hannah, tells us what it’s like to access abortion care in the state of Louisiana. As the Supreme Court rules on the future of abortion access in the United States, we hope that Dr. Verma, Stephanie Goodell, and Hannah’s stories will highlight the importance of abortion access without frivolous limitations on this week’s bonus episode.

Links from this episode

Dr. Verma and Stephanie Goodell’s most recent Op-Ed piece
Reproductive health data through the Guttmacher Institute
Information on Supreme Court Case June Medical Services vs. Russo

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to RePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Hi everyone and welcome to a special bonus episode of RePROs Fight Back. If you are listening to this on day, it comes out, it is the day of the Supreme Court hearing for June Medical Services vs. Russo and I will be at Disney world celebrating my birthday. So this is making me think about my March, which y’all… I have so much going on. I am gone pretty much most of the month. A lot of it's for fun though, so that's great. But yeah, so I'm going to be in Florida and then uh, later in the month I am going to Curacao out with my family and I plan to do basically literally nothing but lay on the beach and read lots of amazing books. So if anybody has book recommendations, feel free to reach out and send me suggestions either on Twitter, I'm at JennieinDC or you can send them to at RePROs Fight Back, um, on Twitter or Facebook or Instagram, whatever. Or you can always email me. That's Jennie@reprosfightback.org. I look forward to seeing if people have suggestions for things I should read. I'm always looking for fun books to read and I'm going to have a whole week on a beach with nothing to do but read books and I am so looking forward to the chance to get away and decompress and just kind of check out and not check the news and not be on Twitter and… Oh, it sounds so blissful, just thinking about it. Okay. But before all that we need to talk about today and the Supreme Court case. So today's episode is going to be a little different. It's going to be an episode in two parts. First we're going to kick off the episode with a storyteller named Hannah telling her story about getting an abortion and why access in Louisiana, which is what is going to be talked about in the June Medical Services case, is so important. And then after that I talked to Stephanie Goodell and Dr. Nisha Burma about Stephanie's story and Nisha’s role in it. And we talk about what happened there. And again, they talk about why access to abortion services and not getting in the middle of the doctor patient relationship is so important. So I hope you enjoy these two stories. I think they are really important and it's always wonderful to hear people tell their own stories in their own words. So with that, I will take you to Hannah, and then we will go to Stephanie and Dr. Nisha.

Hannah: My name is Hannah, and when I was 18 I had an abortion. It's enabled me to lead the life that I now have. For me, my abortion was a crucial part of my personal journey, self-love, freedom, body autonomy, and economic independence. When I finally shared my own story with my family, I learned that my mother had had an abortion and then my father's partner had also had an abortion even while it was still illegal in Mexico. I realized then that I was not alone. I grew up in a very progressive and sex positive household. My father is a doctor who supports abortion and understands the harms of unsafe abortion that threatened people's lives before Roe v. Wade and yet I still did not feel safe enough to share my story until years later because we didn't talk about what happened when the stakes are made. I can't help to think that if there were no stigma surrounding abortion, maybe we could have talked about it when I was going through it. Maybe I wouldn't have felt so isolated and alone. Maybe I could have leaned on the very people meant to support me. Unfortunately for many, this access to reproductive freedom has never truly been realized. Race and discrimination impact one's economic circumstances which impacts people of color as healthcare experiences and outcomes disproportionately. I was confronted firsthand with how cost-prohibitive it can be when you are not yet independent and do not feel safe to share it with those whom you're financially dependent on. Yet,I was privileged enough to have a friend willing to sacrifice for me at the time with the means to do so and I'll forever be grateful for her sacrifice to my future. Right now, even our legal right to abortion is on the line as the Supreme Court hears a crucial abortion case that could decide our legal right to abortion in the country and pave the way for states to effectively ban abortion for over 25 million people of reproductive age. Many people seeking safe, legal abortion in Louisiana already face barriers to care. They have to take time off of work to travel on businesses, to a healthcare center, buying childcare, and they have to do it all twice because of medically unnecessary 24 hour waiting period laws. I lived in Louisiana for five years and I've seen firsthand how structural barriers impact the lives, health and families of people in the community. Well, I no longer live there. I still have friends that will definitely be affected and I know that this case could have far reaching consequences for many people in the country. Overall, everyone deserves to be able to make decision about their bodies like myself and others shown in We Testify and Planned Parenthood's short film. We need to shatter the stigma surrounding abortion. I need you to insure that access to reproductive healthcare is not just accessible for a privileged few. Access to safe abortions should be the right of every person because abortions are part of life. They happened before these laws exist and they will continue to happen if these laws pass anyways. These laws will only put people at risk. The future we are fighting for has safe and equitable abortion access shame-free. It's the future the majority of Americans support, want and need.

Jennie: I'm excited to have with me today, Stephanie Goodell and Nisha Verma. Hi Stephanie and Nisha, thank you so much for being here.

Dr. Verma: Hi, thanks for having us. Yes, we're excited to be here.

Jennie: So before we get started, I think it would be really great to have the two of you introduce yourselves so that people get used to everybody's voices, but also so we can hear about you. So who wants to go first?

Stephanie: Well, is there anything that you think, uh, your listeners might want to know about us?

Jennie: Um, so if you wanna start just like with a really simple telling us about yourself and then we'll go into your story after that.

Stephanie: All right. Dr. Verma, do you want to go first? Dr. Verma: Hi everyone. My name is Nisha Verma. I am currently working as an OB GYN in Atlanta, Georgia. I'm from North Carolina originally and that's where I did my undergraduate and medical school degree. Then then was up in Boston for the past four years doing my OB GYN residency and that's where my path crossed with Stephanie's. And now I am back in the South in Atlanta, Georgia, providing a full spectrum of OB GYN care for my patients. So while women visit pap smears, labor and delivery, postpartum care, as well as abortion and contraception care.

Stephanie: That sounds so much sexier than what I did. I'm Stephanie Goddell, and I currently live right outside of Boston, Massachusetts. Of course, that's where I met Dr. Verma. But originally I'm from Virginia, so I too am a southerner. And my first career was in higher education. My second career was an entrepreneur. And now actually we'll tell a little bit more about how I ended up where I am. I'm in talent development in philanthropy at the medical center where I was treated and that Dr. Verma was.

Jennie: Oh, wonderful.

Stephanie: Okay. So I like long walks on the beach…

[All laugh]

Jennie: Perfect. Okay. So I think that leads us perfectly into, do you want to tell us how the two of you met?

Stephanie: Yeah, it was two years ago. And the reason I know that is because it was International Women's Day, March 8th when I was admitted to the hospital because I was five months pregnant, so 21 week plus four days and I had gone into preterm immature rupture of the ovarian membrane. So that is when the amniotic sac starts leaking. And it was quickly determined that my pregnancy was at risk because not only did I was I leaking amniotic fluid, but I also had started having it's interaction. So while I was in the hospital, tough decisions to make and I could have continued my pregnancy and hope for the best, which would have been perhaps to get the pregnancy to 24, 25 weeks where it might be viable with significant complications, most likely including all kinds of physical and mental challenges for any child that's born that early. It's just developmentally, it's too soon. Um, then the next option was to induce labor more intensely and to have the child knowing that it would not survive probably the labor and definitely not survive out of the womb very long. Or I could…terminate the pregnancy immediately. This pregnancy was something I worked really hard at for eight years. I spent thousands and thousands, tens of thousands of my own money to have this pregnancy on my own. And you know, I didn't, I didn't want it to end like this, needless to say. But the one thing I wanted was to hold my baby, even if it was just for a minute, just to know that this was real and to appreciate, to just appreciate the life that, that I had hoped to have and this child that I'd hoped to bring into my life after three days of trying pretty much everything under the sun. It didn't work out that way… and I was losing consciousness and um, I'm not even sure how to explain it from a medical perspective, but it wasn't good. And I knew my life was at risk and Dr. Verma was a part of my care team. And the thing I remember about those first three days of being in the hospital was just the constant ethic of care that I felt like my team gave me, checking in on me to see how my mental state was, see how my physical state was to come back and talk through decisions and to make sure that we were all on the same page about my care. And I think that those first three days were instrumental in the way that I felt about my care over the next couple of weeks because it did not get better. I'll fast forward about happened during those two weeks. And the first thing is that I ended up having to have the D&E at 22 weeks plus one day in the middle of the night. It was a rush D&E because my system was failing. Came through that. It was a Monday morning bright and early Tuesday rolled around. I thought I was getting released. I had somehow managed to put on some makeup and some decent clothes and really what I wanted to do was get out of the hospital so I could go home and cry a lot over my loss and my family's loss. There was a nor'easter that day here in Boston. It was a crazy March. We had four nor'easters in a row. And um, my doctor thought that maybe I should just stay another day, um, that I shouldn't, you know, take a car share and go home and that maybe I should just stay one more day. And I'm really grateful for his guidance on that because it ended up that I was critically ill. I had a bacterial infection running through my body that was causing me to have tremors from a high fever and my body's inability to fight off this infection. This continued to go on or another week until we came to the conclusion that the best course of treatment for me was actually hysterectomy because it seems like there were some retained materials of conception that were in my uterus that had gotten infected and I was on three different rounds of antibiotics and I was still continuing to decline. So I had a hysterectomy and as soon as I did my panels came back clear and I recovered from the infection and ended up finding out that I had a critical placenta disorder that could have been fatal during delivery, especially undiagnosed called placenta increta. And it's very, very serious. And I am so grateful that, you know, I went through this process and ended up not with the best outcome but I'm alive and that is a better outcome than it might've been had I not gone through what I went through the previous two. So Dr. Verma was a part of my care team and looking back, um, you know, I felt like I had this, this doctor and there was this incredible team surrounding him, but I didn't always know who played what role. And over time I've learned more about Dr. Verma's role and I think I've come to appreciate her even more than I did on those really late nights when I was trying to recover from everything I've been through.

Jennie: Stephanie first, thank you so much for sharing your story with us.

Stephanie: You’re welcome.

Jennie: I am sorry that you had to go through that. That sounds really emotional and rough.

Stephanie: Yeah. You know, when Dr. Verma… I, we just wrote an article, an op ed for USA Today and I think that the thing that's so unique that people don't often think about is that yes, I was a patient and yes I'm the one who had the late term abortion, but there was somebody else. I mean there were many people who were experiencing this with me and they have their own perspectives and their own stories and I would love to hear from Dr. Verma, you know, kind of two scenes… enter Dr. Verma you know, what was and what was hers, you know, when she met me and then she came in and sure I was, you know, in the bed in crisis. Like what was her experience.

Dr. Verma: Yeah, I know. And thank you Stephanie for sharing that story. I know I've heard it before and we've written this piece together, but it's always just, it's still so powerful to hear you just tell it all together. It kind of gives me chills, but I think you did a beautiful job telling that. From my perspective, when I met Stephanie, I was actually at the chief resident, the senior resident in the hospital, caring for patients on the OB GYN service. And like Stephanie said, she came in after breaking her water much earlier than is normal and earlier than we want or to be able to survive outside of the uterus. And like she described, she wanted to have that induction of labor, have the ability to hold the baby. I was part of the team taking care of Stephanie as we tried to get her into labor and as she got sicker and sicker with what we suspected wasn't an infection and really ultimately with Stephanie, it was decided to move forward with that dilation evacuation procedure because we were worried about her health and her life at that point. And so we did that procedure. And for most patients actually, even with a bad infection, when we remove the pregnancy, they get better. For Stephanie, like she described, she did not get better and we, throughout the next couple weeks as we watched her and treated her, found out when we did the hysterectomy that she did have this terrible placental disorder. That was part of what was making her so sick and making her not get better. I think for me, I think for Stephanie in those days, after the initial D&E procedure, I very much remember I was on night shift during those those weeks. There were long nights,nand I remember kind of coming into the hospital every night really looking forward to seeing Stephanie and talking to her and I would go into her room every evening, see how she was doing and talk about the management plan for, for her clinically. But then we would also just end up talking about her story and her struggles to get pregnant and get to this point and plan for the future. What brought her here and kind of, you know, she asked me about my own and what had brought me to that point and we really got to know and respect each other as people and friends instead of just as a doctor and patient and I think really bonded through that time in the hospital and have actually stayed in close touch since then over the two years since that time. 
Stephanie: Yeah, I remember one of those nights. And the reason why I was up in the middle of the night is cause you don't actually sleep in the hospital. I don't know if everybody knows that, but Dr. Verma would come in and we would have these conversations and my best friend was there with me a lot and my best friend has a medical background and she knew all the questions to ask. So she would be asking those and we'd be talking with Dr. Verma and I noticed that she had a small coat hanger tattoo on her wrist. And I asked her about that and she told me the story of why she had it. Um, I'm not sure if she might want to share now, but if it was part of what I think it wasn't just the care that I was getting and who she was, it was starting to understand that we both had the perspective on reproductive rights and a woman's ability to direct her own health care and health care decisions and have access to healthcare more easily. I think it all started way back then on, on one of those nights.

Dr. Verma: Yeah, I think so. So I do have a small coat hanger tattoo that Stephanie had asked me about, and this was shortly after I'd actually returned from a rotation in Botswana where I was doing labor and delivery as well as surgeries and Botswana, as a country…abortion in kind of in practice is essentially illegal. And while I was there, a young woman who had tried to induce her own abortion at home actually come in dead. And that was the first time that I had ever seen something like that. I know people here in this country before Roe v. Wade and before abortion was illegal, saw horrible things like that as well. But I think for me it really hit home how important it is to preserve safe and legal abortion. I got this tattoo to kind of represent a commitment to myself and my patients to continue to provide that service. Then as Stephanie and I talked about that tattoo and that experience in Botswana and that patient story there, we kind of also talked about the power of storytelling… definitely talked a lot about her drive and motivation to, to share her story, to make positive change, and that has also then part of what has continued to form a connection between the two of us is this kind of passion to use stories to try to make positive change and kind of show people what the actual reality of abortion is.

Stephanie: Yeah. I think that storytelling is so important because we're in a society now where it feels often like people are forced to choose one side or another, right? You're either pro-choice or your anti-choice. And I think that their storytelling helps us really understand everything that's in the middle, right? The nuances of situations that women and people find themselves in where they need access to health care and through storytelling we can understand those nuances and I think come to a better understanding of each other and the needs of people in our society regarding health care and access to reproductive procedures.

Jennie: That’s completely true.

Dr. Verma: Yeah. I think that nuance is something that's really important and that often is missing in these laws that try to restrict abortion, that really paint this as a black and white issue. And I think that's also something that Stephanie and I really bonded about in the hospital and in our time since the hospital is talking about that complexity and that nuance that is reflected in, in people's real experiences with abortion. And I think for both of us, we recognize that abortion is something that ends up potential life while also giving someone the ability to make really important decisions about their own lives and that you can recognize both of those together. And so value the ordinance of abortion, ah, option and sometimes a life saving option for people.

Stephanie: And I, I love the way that you phrase that Dr. Verma, those, those two truths together. So when we were writing the op-ed, I discovered something that I didn't know that, well, I'll just tell you what it is. I'm not sure how to describe my emotions about it. So I think that there's this perception that abortion providers are baby killers, right? And I don't know if there's a thought in there from some people that, I don't know. There's joy in that. It's crazy. But abortion providers both understand, like Dr. Verma said that there's an ability to save a life and there is also at the same time, the ending of a potential life. Right. And when Dr. Verma was performing the D&E on me, she said a prayer for my baby. And I think that that's such a beautiful thing because I think they come from similar faith backgrounds where we do believe that there's a potential for another life in death. And for her to say a prayer for this baby that I was hoping to bring into this world, it was like, it was such a beautiful thing to hear that because I felt like I wasn't just a patient and this wasn't just a procedure. This was all very, very personal for me, and it was very, very personal for her too, and not to be taken lightly.

Jennie: That makes sense.

Stephanie: Yeah. And when she told me that, I think I got a little teary because I already have so much respect for her and the role she plays and just so much gratitude for my whole care team…. Phenomenal. But to know that she did that in that moment and does it all for me and such an amazing way.

Dr. Verma: Oh yeah. Well, thank you. I think that's one of the ways I kind of honor that. For me, those two truths do exist. And abortion provision is something that I feel incredibly passionate about and that I'm very committed to, but that I do recognize the complexity of it. And so I grew up in a Hindu household and there's a belief of reincarnation and you have the belief system that I grew up with. And so when I perform abortions, I always kind of quietly say to myself, in your next life you will go somewhere better. And that's my way of kind of honoring that there is something that is ending, whatever, however you want to think about that. And I think that that's something that Stephanie and I have been able to talk about and bond about. And I think that too often we don't talk about that complexity and that nuance that's really important that I feel like the politicians that are making these broad just aren't.

Jennie: Yeah. And I think that that brings us to something that has just been very clear through this whole conversation is the importance of the relationship between the doctor and the patient. And that brings us to the Supreme Court case that if you're listening to this on the day it comes out, we'll be being argued that day, which is June Medical Services vs. Russo. But you may also hear us say June Medical vs. Gee. The name changed recently. And so it's still like we kind of flip flop and kind of forget that it's now Russo. I'm so sorry for the confusion that for any people who are experiencing the podcast, do you maybe want to talk a little bit about how some of these laws can get in between the doctor patient relationship?

Dr. Verma: Yeah, definitely. So one of the parts, uh, what the Supreme Court is going to decide on with this case is whether doctors can continue to have third party status or their patients that they're providing abortion care. So whether we can continue to bring cases to the court on our patient's behalf and challenge these restrictions on our patient's behalf. One of the things that they're arguing is that doctors just don't have their patients' best interest in mind. And so there's a conflict of interest and doctor shouldn't be able to of course, their patients in court. And I think that was one of the reasons that Stephanie and I felt really motivated to share our story now is that I think our story is an example that doctors do have those strong relationships with patients and do have our patients best interests in mind. And I think it, it would be really problematic to take away a doctor's ability to…you can have a lot of different reasons why it's difficult for them to go to court. They're often when they're pregnant and seeking an abortion, they don't have the time or the resources to do that themselves. And so I think that would be a really tough thing to expect patients to do.

Stephanie: And I truly believe that my relationship with my doctors was critical to my healing. If I had not been a participant in my own care plan and had a relationship where I trusted them with my care, I think that my emotional recovery and healing from what's clearly the most traumatic thing I've ever been through in my life would have been so significantly, so much more harder than than it was. And instead of kind of walking out of the hospital just being mad at the world, I walked out of the hospital, so grateful for the care that I was given and really for the people that have been brought into my life. It's not just Dr. Verma. I ran the Boston marathon last year and raised money for the OB GYN Medical Center and one of the other doctors that was on my care team also ran it. And here we were at the starting line of what is probably this office marathon in the world and she was braiding my hair for me, you know, the run to run the marathon with her. I won't say exactly with her because she was way faster than I was, but to experience that, right, to experience that with her. And then to have her yet again, you know, caring for me at the, at the start line of the marathon, you know, those are things that have been critical in my healing. And I think most people know when it comes to grieving and recovery from things like this. It's cyclical and you go through waves. And I think my first year was all about being strong and being a survivor and staying connected to these people that cared for me and showing them that I had survived. And I think this year is very different this year as far more emotional for me than it was last year because I think I've softened and I, I've let the sadness kind of deep out a little bit more. And again, it's a critical part of my healing. Being a part of this case is a part of my healing and writing and speaking with Dr. Verma is also a part of my healing. And knowing that I have this relationship that I hope lasts for decades is all a really important part of that process. So I would, if I looked back and, and had to make any changes along the way, I absolutely wouldn't because I do truly feel like these people who were part of my care team had my best interest in mind at all.

Dr. Verma: Yeah. Throughout those difficult weeks in the hospital and all of the decisions that had to be made. I think really at the end of the day, like Stephanie's saying, we do need to try patients and their families to make these decisions with their doctors and trust that patients can make these decisions. And I think a lot of these laws like the law that it seems challenging, the Supreme Court case are intended to present patients and doctors from making those decisions together and are intended to make it harder for patients to get abortions…and all of that is really causing harm.

Stephanie: Yeah. I think that, you know, it's really important to talk about, you know, what that would mean for doctors and patients. Like what, you know, we've already touched on it. It's a great, it's a great time to start thinking about who actually gets an abortion. Right? The majority of the cases are not like mine where I, I get admitted to the hospital, I have a critical health emergency. I feel like many people would be like, Oh, okay, life in danger and we'll, we'll, we'll give her a pass. Right? Yeah. But that's not who typically needs abortion procedures. I know Dr. Verma has done a lot of work around this speak to that very concept.

Dr. Verma: Yeah. So I think it's really important when we're thinking about this Supreme Court case and as we're telling our story, that definitely is actually the exception. So most abortions don't occur in the hospital. Most abortions are completely safe to occur in the outpatient setting. They're actually safer than colonoscopy, than wisdom teeth surgery and less then— like significantly less than 1% of abortions have major complications that required people to come to the hospital. And so most people can completely receive their care in the outpatient setting. One of the things that the lobbying talents in a Supreme Court case says is that all physicians providing abortion services have to have admitting privileges to a nearby hospital. And that is a standard that other doctors providing outpatient that are more dangerous than abortion are not held to. Again, abortion is a very, very safe procedure outpatient and so this will really restrict abortion access as many of the providers and many of the clinics providing abortion. These people don't have admitting privileges and nearby hospitals and don't need to and so it's going to take away the ability of many people in my community who are providing link care. It's going to take away their ability to provide these services to patients and take away patient's ability to ask that they send legal abortion.

Jennie: Yeah, no, I think it, it seems very clear that you know, if states are allowed to pass these kinds of laws and you have clinics that are not able to stay open because they can't get admitting privileges, you really exacerbate a problem that we already have where in so many places row is kind of a write on paper only and people don't have the ability to access the care they need. And this, if you could just really see this spread and affect a lot more people than are already impacted.

Dr. Verma: Exactly. Here in Georgia where I'm currently practicing, where seeing patients from all around the Southeast, we're getting patients that are traveling from Tennessee, from Alabama and these patients are having to take off work and get hotel rooms and you know, find child care and it's a huge burden for them and their lives. But that's what they have to do to travel to get to a place where they can get abortions. Right now in Georgia, luckily we can still do abortions up to 22 weeks. But you know, as more clinic closed down, people are going to travel farther and further and more people aren't going to be able to get abortions safely. And I think, I think that's a very real concern and a very real risk, especially in places like the Southeast where I'm currently practicing.

Jennie: Okay. So I feel like that leads us to a good place where we're hearing a lot of what a great standard of care is, like Stephanie was able to receive and some of the challenges that the Supreme Court case present. So let's stay on a positive note and talk about what can people do who are following this podcast, what kind of actions can they take to help ensure that people have the ability to access abortion care?

Dr. Verma: Yeah, I think voting is a huge, huge thing. I think right now we're seeing both in Georgia where I am and nationally we're seeing the consequences of people not getting out and vote. And I think not voting has very real consequences to real life. And so I think that the first and foremost thing I would say is just making sure that we're all voting as much as we can.

Stephanie: And I go back to thinking about the people who are somewhere along this continuum of their opinion regarding access to abortion, right? So maybe they're not completely on one side or the other. And I think that those people should really think through and try to understand the data around why people need abortion. Because you could be listening to this podcast and say, well, exactly, if, if doctors can't provide abortion care because I don't mind admitting privileges. Well then problem solves, right? People can't have abortions. And that's the whole point. That’s not the point. I don't think anybody, if they really looked into understanding why abortion is necessary, health care, I think they'd come to an understanding that somewhere more along the middle of understanding why it's important to preserve this right for people in our country. So that's the why, you know, explore why. And then the coupled with that is how, so think about how these restrictive laws actually play out. Like what's the reality of it? You know, and that's just this, all the laws that are just insane and being thrown out there, they're largely unrealistic in practice and I think that a lot of people are setting aside common sense for joining one side or another and if we all softened their stance just a little bit and tried to understand the reality of the people who need abortions and how these laws would actually play out, I think that we'd all be in a better place.

Dr. Verma: Yeah, I think that's very well said. I completely agree. And there's research out there, I think from the Guttmacher Institute. I'm not sure if I say that right, but there's some great research there and I've had debates with people who fall on different sides and all of us go back to that site to look at the data to try to understand how things like access to birth control, access to education that is not abstinence only education. How do these things impact pregnancy and somebody’s desire to access abortion procedures. I think we all need to be more understanding about those root causes and think about creating changes. They're not by trying to overturn Roe v. Wade with crazy laws.

Jennie: Okay, well thank you Nisha and thank you Stephanie. I am so happy that you were able to share both of your stories and talk to us today.

Dr. Verma: Thank you so much for allowing us to share our story. It's not my stories, our stories.

Stephanie: Thanks. Yay. I'm having the ability to talk with you all and thank you for everything you do.

Jennie: Thank you. I love doing it so it doesn't count. Right.

Jennie: I hope you all enjoyed this week's special bonus episode and I just want to give a heartfelt thank you to Hannah, to Stephanie and to Dr. Verma for telling your stories. I am always so grateful when people are willing to share their stories about why abortion services matters. So thank you to them. I hope you all enjoy listening to them and we'll try to see about doing maybe some more storytelling episodes in the future. Okay, so we'll be back next week with a regular episode and I hope everybody has a wonderful week. Always feel free to reach out to us if you have any questions or any comments. You can always reach us on social media at reprosfightback or on Instagram at reprosFB, and you can always feel free to email me at jennie@reprosfightback.com Thanks

Jennie: For more information including show notes from this episode and previous episodes. Please visit our website at reprosfightback.com, you can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at repros fight back and on Instagram at reprosfb. if you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and please rate and review us on Apple podcasts. Thanks.

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