Apparently Overturning Roe Wasn't Enough: A National Abortion Ban has Been Proposed

Senator Lindsey Graham (R-SC) last week proposed a national abortion ban that would impact patient’s access to abortion care across the United States. Erin Matson, Co-founder and Executive Director of Reproaction, sits down to talk with us about this introduced 15-week abortion ban in the U.S. Senate this week and what this could mean for Americans.

The overturn of Roe v. Wade has fundamentally changed abortion access in the United States, with abortion bans in individual states preventing care and forcing patients to travel in order to access an abortion. These pieces of legislation—designed to control reproduction and bodily autonomy—are heavily influenced by white supremacy, enforced gender roles, and reproductive oppression. When the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization decision was leaked and eventually ruled, many anti-abortion voices argued that this move would simply “send the issue back to the states”; clearly, this isn’t the case. With Justice Clarence Thomas’ statements inviting challenges to birth control and same-sex marriage, this proposed national abortion ban points clearly to a future in which Republicans and other anti-abortion legislators would have no problem outlawing other basic human rights tied to bodily autonomy and personal decision making. 

In addition, none of the language used in Senator Lindsey Graham’s bill is factual or based in science or medicine. Instead, this language is instituted for the purpose of stigmatizing and banning abortion and other forms of reproductive healthcare. 15 weeks does not allow for many people to discover they are pregnant, raise money to pay for the abortion, get time off work, arrange childcare or transportation, or account at all for changed circumstances during pregnancy.

Links from this episode

Reproaction on Twitter
Reproaction on Facebook
Demystifying Self-Managed Abortion podcast with Erin Matson
Plan C
Abortionfinder.org
Ineedana.com
Repro Legal Helpline
Repro Legal Defense Fund
Digital Defense Fund

Transcript

Jennie: Welcome to rePROs Fight Back, a podcast where we explore all things reproductive health, rights and justice. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and I'll be helping you stay informed around issues like birth control, abortion, sex education and LGBTQ issues and much, much more-- giving you the tools you need to take action and fight back. Okay, let's dive in.

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Jennie: Welcome to this week's episode of rePROs Fight Back. I'm your host, Jennie Wetter, and my pronouns are she/her. Y'all, I cannot believe this is our 150th episode. Whoa. Yeah, I can't believe we've done 150 of these. Uh, it feels like in some ways, like we just started doing the podcast and I cannot believe we've almost been going for five years. It just is… is unreal. I cannot believe we've done 150 episodes, like so many times, like if you had asked me when we started doing this, if I thought we would be going 150 episodes and four and a half years later, like I would probably be like, “no, like that is wild.” And it is like, I, I just… it's unreal. So thank you all for listening or reading our transcripts or being involved with the podcast. I really, really appreciate it. I really appreciate Meg who does all of our editing and makes me sound like I know what I'm talking about and sound good. I really appreciate it. And for Rachel, who has done so much work on the podcast from day one, both Megan and Rachel have worked on the podcast since day one. And Rachel has done so much, like all of the lovely graphics you all see online and all of our social media and the website-- like that is all Rachel. She has done all of those things and makes us look amazing. So super, super grateful for her and all of her amazing work. So Meg, Rachel, thank you so much. Huge, huge thank you to all of you. I really appreciate it. And it's just so great that y'all keep coming back to listen to the podcast or read the transcripts or however you take it in. I just am very grateful to all of you. Let's see here. I am getting super excited for fall, it just came on all of a sudden. And I don't know if it's because it's finally gotten nicer here; I mean, it's still like 80, but it's nice enough that like, I can have my windows open. It's getting a little cooler at night. It's just lovely. It's just making me happy and thinking of like soup season and like thinking of all the wonderful soups I'm gonna make this fall or the stews, or maybe like, I was also looking this morning at like a recipe for lasagna. So thinking of like all of those kinds of things, thinking of the baked goods I'll make, thinking of like, you know, pumpkin recipes. I bought donut pans for baked donuts. So I'm gonna have to try out making maybe either pumpkin donuts or apple cider donuts. Oh, just so many things. I'm so excited. Just… y'all when I say just hit me. I mean like five minutes ago, like all of a sudden I was just like, I'm ready for it to be fall. And I am super excited. So this is why you have me just gushing and thinking of like spooky season. I am here for it. I am ready for the new, the new Hocus Pocus when it comes out. I'm so excited for that. I'm so excited for… I got a bunch of spooky season books to read between now and Halloween. So many like, witches and haunted houses and so many like creepy, spooky books. I basically y'all, I am all in on fall in spooky season. I cannot wait.

Jennie: And you know, the scariest thing happening is the loss of our rights. I know that was kind of a cheesy transition y'all but I didn't have a good one. So I'm super excited to talk about everything that is going on. So we talk about the state of abortion access right now. We talk about Lindsay Graham's new proposed national abortion ban, and I am so excited to have the always amazing Erin Matson at Reproaction on to talk about all of these things with me. I am just so grateful that she was able to do it, and we had a wonderful conversation. So I hope you all enjoy my conversation with Erin. Hi Erin. Thank you so much for being here today.

Erin: Hello, Jennie. Great to be back on rePROs Fight Back!

Jennie: Before we get started, maybe let's just do a quick, do you wanna introduce yourself and include your pronouns?

Erin: Absolutely. So, I'm Erin Matson. I use she/her pronouns and I am co-founder and executive director of Reproaction, which leads bold action to increase access to abortion and advanced reproductive justice.

Jennie: I'm so excited to have you on for many reasons, but you always have such a great voice on all of these issues and it seemed fitting to have you on sometime like after the fall of Roe to just kind of talk about all the things, but now we're almost at three months, which is somehow hard to believe. It's only been three months. And also I can't wrap my head around the fact that it's like, mid-September at the same time. What does everything look like right now?

Erin: Oh, I mean…

Jennie: For abortion access.

Erin: Yeah. The overturn of Roe has been an unmitigated disaster for public health and gender equality and social justice in this country. And every day it seems another state falls on the precipice of no longer offering in-clinic access to care. We expect that more states will fall soon. And that in pretty short order, it'll be a half of the country or more that doesn't offer in clinic access to abortion any longer. So it's devastating. And what-- and I wanna be very clear about this-- It doesn't mean that folks in states where abortion is legal are not impacted. In fact, what you have is patients flooding in from other states, abortion has become very much a regional issue. And so wait times are just astronomically long, pushing people and forcing them to get care later in their pregnancies in some cases, and also increasing the expense associated with that, the travel needs. Another piece that I wanna say is, you know, I came initially to this fight as a gender equality person and I was in the women's rights movement and very quickly it became clear to me that abortion needed more and more of my attention. And I will just say that, you know, I came into this from that lens, like I'm working on abortion. I think now that abortion access and reproductive justice advocates are on the front lines of just fighting for democracy and individual freedoms in our country, period. And I'm gonna qualify that statement. So we've had model legislation released by the National Right to Life Committee that actually bans freedom of speech. They would make it illegal to share information about abortion pills and how they work on a website that by the way is work that Reproaction does, so not just talking to people but publishing information. So I think that's another piece. The abortion opponents are showing their true colors and they are willing to stop at nothing. And it really is in service of a broader totalitarian anti-abortion, small-d, democratic agenda.

Jennie: Yeah. This has also been on my, like my seeming never ending list of topics to like talk about is something I've definitely seen you talk about multiple times is the connections between the “pro-life” movement and that's heavy, heavy air quotes, with the white supremacist movement. And we won't do like a full, deep dive into it cuz like it definitely deserves its own episode, but I definitely think, you know, maybe just a little bit, cause I think that's something that people are still maybe grappling with in a way that they don't understand it.

Erin: Yeah, no, I really appreciate you highlighting that. And there's three things that are very much interconnected in the push to ban all abortion and to control pregnancy and control reproduction and sex for anyone on the basis of what body they were born into. The first concept is this, is really about white supremacy. And so let's put this in plain English. This is the same issue as concern about population rates dropping. And it's a specific population. This is about-- abortion bans are about, “we want more white babies.” That is what they want. I wanna be very crystal clear about that. And you see that sometimes in, in opposition, strategic plans and other conversations that they have amongst themselves and online where they talk about “a European style demographic winter.” Let me tell you exactly what that is-- that is about white babies. So they wanna control the population. The second piece is gender roles and specifically enforcing gender roles. There's a very specific idea about womanhood and what our role as women is in society. And it is about taking away freedoms that we have so that we, again, birth more babies. And then third is reproductive oppression. And that more broadly is about the state oppressing on the basis of reproduction. And so what you see there is people not only not having access to abortion care, but also struggling, for example, to get access to fertility treatment where people are charged with crimes, for behavior during pregnancy that is otherwise not charged. So, you know, like someone not wearing a seatbelt while they're driving, other pieces like that. So that falls most heavily, again, it's all interconnected with white supremacy and gender roles, but white supremacy, especially that falls most heavily on women of color.

Jennie: Thank you for that.

Erin: That's kind of the broader thing of what we're up against here and what all this anti-abortion stuff is about. TLDR: they want more white babies.

Jennie: Yeah. I just feel like that's such a big part that you see talked about more broadly, more and more recently, which I really appreciate, but I think if you're not like steeped in the movement, you might see it, but not understand the connection. So I'm really glad to take a step back and talk about that. And we'll definitely have a full episode that digs into that at some point. And, and I think, you know, we were talking about the, the challenges of like all the states that have banned abortion since the fall of Roe. And you talked about it being a regional problem. And it's always striking to me is like, when you look at the map and see, you're not just talking about abortion being banned in a state and you have to travel like next door to go get access. Like you're now talking about places where people are gonna have to travel great distances to get care and the cascading effects and like what you touched on it that impacts cost. If you're getting abortion later, like it, it just is getting so difficult for so many people to access care and like people who are already marginalized going to be the most impacted this. So like, again, this all just is interrelated.

Erin: It's horrifying, you know, and I just wanna underscore, like, it was a bright light to see what happened in Kansas, and more of that. And I think we'll be talking about that in relation to other current events. But I would say like, folks should really keep in mind that it's not just about access to abortion in Kansas, that there are so many states that are now depending on Kansas for care, the number of Texans and Oklahomans and others who are driving and who had been driving into Kansas for care. So of course, it wasn't even close on that vote, but if it had gone poorly that would've been devastating, not just for Kansas, but really for the whole central south region.

Jennie: Yeah. And I guess that takes us to the big news of when, when this comes out, last week, Senator Graham proposed a 15 week national abortion ban, which, I mean, raise your hand if you were surprised to see that coming, but it's scary to like see it being talked about no matter what, because it, it won't happen right now, but like that doesn't mean it couldn't happen in the near future. And like this would have even more devastating impact just across the country.

Erin: Yeah. So this ban is so cruel and it shows the true intentions. I mean, one may recall that right after Roe was overturned by a stacked Supreme Court that was brought in and installed just to do exactly what it did, the culmination of 50 years of organizing by the right wing in this country. I mean, they were laser focused on that goal. One might recall that there was some gas lighting that was happening and it was like, “oh, this is just returning it to the states or the people.” Okay. So can we talk because with Lindsay Graham's national ban, so wait a minute, but a state that doesn't ban abortion, he wants to go in and ban it? Okay, got it. That's what's happening. But also, you know, we can also debunk this, returning it to the people language. These are the very same, the folks who are supporting that national ban are the exact same folks who were trying to get the Michigan reproductive rights, um, ballot amendment off so that it wouldn't go before the voters. So they're actually terrified of democracy, which brings me to a point that you may not be asking for, but I think it's not discussed enough. So it is really interesting to watch the reaction of electorally minded conservatives to Senator Graham's hateful bill. And you have folks like Senate minority leader, Mitch McConnell, Senate minority whip, John Cornin, both like essentially extending a 29-foot pole to be like, “Mm, not really. Not really. You'll have to ask him about that. That's not really what our priority is right now.” And there's good reasoning for that. Polling shows that voters are outraged. You look at what happened in Kansas, that vote happened in Kansas with conservative voters, big time, conservative voters, not independent, reliable conservative voters. The overreach is that the Supreme Court went through. People are realizing like, “hHoly F, this is not what is compatible with a free country.” So you see that you see that, you know, the 19th just came out with a new poll that shows that 70% of voters-- and that I wanna be very granular about-- it's actually 74% of democratic voters and 70% of Republican voters do not think that politicians have enough information to be legislating abortion. In other words, they don't trust them to legislate abortion. That's 70% of Republican voters in that poll said that. So you see why some folks, electorally minded folks, are trying to distance themselves from Senator Graham's hateful ban. But you know, I've been seeing a lot of news coverage elsewhere, where you have like other pollsters who are saying, you know, they basically point to the McConnell-Cornin response. And they're like, this is gonna moderate itself out because voters aren't gonna go for it. The problem is this, Jennie, the problem is that the people behind these bans, they talk about a general electorate. You know, the, the pollsters who say this and the electorally minded folks who say this are talking about a general electorate. The problem is that the people behind this legislation and this drive don't want there to be a general electorate. Let me say that again. They don't want there to be an electorate because they don't want elections. They do not care. This is part of surge toward a non-democratic model of government in this country. And so we need to take it very, very, very seriously, even as some attempt to distance themselves from it. As we have seen with January 6th, the mainstream and, and the apology of, for that, the mainstream of the conservative movement is not mounting a sufficient response to fight back against this anti-democracy movement. And so it ties in absolutely with these bans. I mean, they, I don't think they're gonna moderate is the way to sum it up. I don't think they're gonna moderate. I think we're gonna see these bans continue to come.

Jennie: I just, at the moment, I'm having so many, like flashbacks of the many years of like, “Don't worry. They're never gonna overturn Roe. Like, don't worry. It's never gonna happen. They're not coming for birth control. They're not like, don't worry your little head. It'll be fine.” And I just feel like this never-ending loop of like, “don't worries” keep happening. Like, “don't worry, a national ban is never gonna pass.” And I feel like I am going bonkers because it just keeps happening. And the same people keep telling us not to worry as the things keep happening.

Erin: Yeah. And let's talk about what's going on there because I can so visualize a person like patting you on the head saying “oh sweetie,” as you say that, I mean, it’s sexist too. It's gas lighting and it's sexist. It's like we're…

Jennie: Being like “don't worry your little head.”

Erin: All these “hysterical” ladies, when in fact the rights of all people with capacity for pregnancy have just been decimated. And again, it isn't, don't worry. I mean, Justice Clarence Thomas was very clear like, “Hey, let's revisit Griswold in the right to contraception. Let's revisit same sex marriage.” I mean, they're going there.

Jennie: Yeah. And we already saw a little bit of that coming up with this Texas judge who ruled that PrEP, having insurance cover PrEP was a violation of religious freedoms, which I don't know how I was shocked because I really shouldn't have been shocked, but like, I wasn't ready for it to happen so fast. And again, it just not surprising, but shocking. Yeah.

Erin: It is. It's just, it's one, you know, there's pieces too. Like I thought I couldn't be shocked by anything with somebody who spends a lot of time working on these issues and also looking at, at the right wing in this country. And you know, the one that got me was almost instantly after Roe, I started seeing some of the biggest groups just declare unilaterally that all forms of hormonal birth control are abortion. So the patch, the ring, the pill, like they decided that it was all abortion. And like, that's obviously not scientifically sound, but to connect the dots for folks, so when they're talking about a national abortion ban, they're talking about a national ban on the pill as well.

Jennie: Yeah. It was definitely one of those, like I thought they would try to stick with the more incremental approach of like “it's IUDs we're talking about” or like specific ones. I, I did not expect them to really double down and go all in and just be like, yeah, it's all of it.

Erin: Right. Right. Me too. I thought, you know, they've been, they've been picking on emergency contraception for years and I thought that would be where they would go and no, they went all for it. And just as a public service to listeners, I wanna be very clear that emergency contraception is not abortion and it's not gonna give you the abortion you need. And I need to say that very clearly because you know, now that we're in an environment, self-managed abortion with pills is safe and effective and it works. We share the World Health Organization protocol for that on our website reproaction.org. But there's a lot of disinformation that's been put out there that says that Plan B is an abortion pill. And it's not, in fact, if a person is pregnant and they take Plan B, it's not gonna give them the abortion they need. And it's just gonna delay their time and access to care. So not the same thing, but yeah, I thought that was gonna be where they stuck and nope, they're just going for it.

Jennie: So I think the other thing that's been, I mean, bothering me for a long time, because language is always tended to skew like news, trying to like reiterating rightwing words. So, you know, you see the heartbeat bans or now a conversation about this 15 week ban being a ban on “late abortion” or “later term abortion”. It's really frustrating. And I really would love to hear your thoughts on this because I, language is so important and so important for where people's thoughts are on these things. If they're only hearing like the skewed anti-abortion language.

Erin: Yeah. We should just not use it. And it's not factual, it's not based in science or medicine. This is a manufactured framework that they've instituted for the purpose of banning abortion and restricting all forms of reproductive healthcare. So it's not helpful language to use, but here's what is helpful. And I think, you know, in talking about, for example, Lindsay Graham's ban is a national abortion ban. That is what it is. It's a national abortion ban. And I wanna be clear that the mechanism that it uses for the abortion ban is actually because it is a 15-week ban. So back last January, our friend Marjorie Danfellser, the head of Susan B. Anthony Pro-Life America said upholding Mississippi's 15 week ban is overturning Roe. She was preparing for a more mitigated outcome than what Alito did. She was I think, preparing for what a lot of people had considered-- the Roberts scenario. So what Lindsay Graham has just proposed is overturning Roe in each individual state in the country. That's what it's, it's a national abortion ban, but I wanna talk about values. And I think that's the most important thing is that we talk about the fact that people have a right to their dignity and autonomy and are in the best position to make decisions for themselves during the course of pregnancy, throughout the course of pregnancy-- there are a variety of reasons why a person may be later along in when they have an abortion. Sometimes it's not something they wanted. And it's already because of the fact that abortion has been banned in so many states. And even in states where it's not banned, we talked about this, like wait times, are through the roof and that is delaying access to care. Sometimes people don't know they're pregnant for a good period of time and that's totally normal. There are people who get their periods like clockwork, and there are people who don't. And so it's not unusual to not be aware. Money is often a huge issue. And one of the biggest barriers of all that a person may not be able to afford the procedure, get the time taken off of work. They need help with childcare logistics. Always. This always comes back to the people who are living in the most marginalized identities in this country are most hurt by bans. And so that's another compounding factor. Sometimes it is due to things that, that are just experienced as tragedies by families, where it's very much a wanted pregnancy and the pregnancy is not viable or there are severe indications in the fetus. And parenting, I would like to say this very clear as a parent, myself, parenting decisions made out of love and care that that is the best thing for them to do. And then sometimes just circumstances change during the course of pregnancy. And so there's, I just wanna say there's like all of these different reasons, right? Like, and I can even say this from like a personal perspective, the circumstances that I was born into personally, my mother never would've anticipated in a million years that my biological father would've dropped dead unexpectedly when she was five months pregnant, things just happen. That's just life. And, and so there's so many reasons, the biggest thing is we don't need to provide reasons and it's really rooted in sexism and mistrust that we think people need to justify themselves to us over why they don't wanna be pregnant at a certain moment in time or why they can't be pregnant, even if they want be.

Jennie: Yeah. I think that I definitely was, you know, I've talked about this multiple times on the podcast, you know, growing up in the Catholic church and like the very like shaming aspect of it. But once you like get out and like, my mom was really good about like talking me through the process of like, “have you thought about these things?” And like, when you just think about the people at the center, like their decisions and their reasons are there reasons. And like, they have nothing to do with me. They have nothing to do with anything it's their decision and they need to be supported in it. And they need to be able to have access to care that is affordable and like end of story.

Erin: Right. And be treated well. And with dignity, you know, there is this piece, oh God, there was this horrible piece in the New York Times. That was about a woman who had an appointment in Tennessee. I believe it was. And this was a wanted pregnancy that, that she got some devastating news that her baby showed signs that she was told incompatible with life and great suffering. So she actually had an appointment booked for one of the days immediately after what became post-Dobbs. So she had to travel out of state and was driven by her mother-in-law. And I remember there was just a point in the story where I just started bawling. What got me in it was that they had to drive through some anti-abortion protestors in the state. They went to, and the mother-in-law rolled down the window and took the literature and said to her daughter-in-law, as she's driving into a clinic, basically expressed her agreement with them. And I was just like, oh God, oh my God. Like, what lack of compassion is this? And not, it's not, the point is not to vilify the person. It's the viewpoint that like that people who are having abortions are not people at all that like, there's no seeing her humanity in that moment-- that someone harassing on the sidewalk has a “valid” point of view. And just to be getting that incoming from her own family. I just lost it after that huge drive and all she went through.

Jennie: Yeah. It's always so hard to read so many of these stories and like deal with all of the emotions in them, because that's just one story. And there are so many of them happening right now. And like, I just feel like I can get bogged down in that. And like that can just like shut down my capacity to think about all of, all of the people who are struggling to access just basic healthcare right now. And, but that's what, what some people need to see to like understand the humanity and the, just the right. Of being a person, of people making these decisions. But man, every time, like it just breaks my heart reading all of the stories.

Erin: Yeah. And the thing is, you know, I don't wanna also paint it that like every abortion is sad like that, like that person was sad. Yeah. A lot of people, I mean the, so just flat out the research shows that the overwhelming majority of women surveyed said that the predominant emotion they felt after their abortion was relief and they were confident. Furthermore, 94% say it was the right decision. So it's like, you know, for a lot of people, this is not something that's particularly arduous beyond having to navigate state imposed hurdles and harassment, but it's, you know, abortion can be a pretty, in the abstract, in the absence of barriers, abortion can be a pretty normal, blasé event for some people and all responses are okay. You know, just, just like anything in life. We have different responses to things. We're people, we're human. That's what we need to respect in one another, our humanity and our dignity to control our own lives.

Jennie: Okay. So now we're in this horrible mess, which could slash probably will get worse. What do we need to do? Like what needs to happen to make things better? I mean, I'm sure there's like some near-term solutions. And like obviously the big one is to like make abortion legal everywhere and like free and have it covered by Medicaid and insurance and like affordable. But how do we get there?

Erin: Yeah.

Jennie: And abortion pills and the vending machines.

Erin: I mean, like, let's do it. Yeah. Free abortion pills. Like in the, in the buckets, outside the LGBTQ and women's resource centers in college, like let's do it all. I would say in terms of, for folks looking to plug in right now, and there's a lot of interest, the most impactful things that they can do at is really to center the needs of the people in their own community and there's need everywhere, no matter what your state is doing, there's need everywhere. Abortion funds are wonderful resources for support. So abortionfunds.org, their local organizations in all of the states and donating money is always the often, you know, just the most direct and helpful things. In some cases, folks can volunteer, but I also wanna caution that they're deluged and slammed right now. And so like, if you wanna, that actually might be harder right now to do. And that's okay. It doesn't mean that you're not valued. It just means that everyone in this movement is really hurting right now. I'm sure you're hearing that too, Jennie. I mean, it's just like, it's a devastating time and it there's so many complicated things that are happening. So, so that's one area, something I always wanna advocate is getting real educated on self-managed abortion with pills and how abortion pills work and sharing the word. So they haven't banned freedom of speech yet in this country; they're working on it, but they haven't. And so one of the most empowering things that people can know is how to use either mifepristone and misoprostol together to safely and effectively end a pregnancy on one own or just misoprostol alone. There are a lot of resources out there. Reproaction has 'em on our website. There are a ton of others as well. And we're proud to be on the steering committee of the Abortion on Our Own Terms campaign, with a whole gaggle of organizations across the sector. So that's important. And then do something at the grassroots level, like be visible at this point. Like even now I like see a lot more people in airports wearing abortion shirts. And I'm like, yes, that's a deliberate strategy. And it's a good one. Make yourself visible and known whether that's putting a sticker on your car for the first time, if you have a car and that's safe for you, whether that's speaking up about your views, whether if, if you live in Michigan, that means that you're knocking doors, whether that means educating yourself about the candidates and also going and attending town halls or forums and asking questions, whether that means joining up and linking up with local activist efforts, there are a lot of demonstrations and things like that going on. So there are ways to get locally involved in your community. And the important thing is just to keep going.

Jennie: Yeah. I have cultivated quite the array of abortion t-shirts so there are a lot of fun ones out there. A lot of different places have them definitely check out. I'm wearing one right now. “Abortion funds are magic.” So yeah, I fully wholeheartedly endorse all of Erin's suggestions. We will absolutely include links and actions stuff on self-managed abortion. Actually, I think Erin was on the podcast talking about self-managed abortion. We'll make sure to include that episode too, because you're right. It is so important to make sure that people are getting trusted resources to get accurate information about self-managed abortion right now.

Erin: Right. Cause just because the abortion is illegal in a place doesn't mean that abortion isn't happening and it doesn't mean that safe abortion can't happen. So absolutely folks should empower themselves with information.

Jennie: Well, Erin, as always, it was a real joy to talk to you. Thank you so much for being here.

Erin: Thank you, my friend.

Jennie: Thanks for listening everyone. And we'll see you on our next episode of RePROS Fight Back. For more information, including show notes from this episode and previous episodes, please visit our website at reprosfightback.com. You can also find us on Facebook and Twitter at RePROS Fight Back, or on Instagram at reprosfb. If you like our show, please help others find it by sharing it with your friends and subscribing, rating and reviewing us on iTunes. Thanks for listening.

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